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05-13-2018, 08:01 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
I’ve killed big game with the 243, 260, 7-08, 7x57, 280, 280 AI, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm MSM, 308, 30-06, 300 WM, and 338 Win Mag and 95% of the time no one on this earth could tell the difference between any of them by game reaction after the hit. Now to be fair most were hit where it counts. If you shoot something in the guts you generally have to shoot them again regardless of the cannon you are packing.
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Thanks captain obvious
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05-13-2018, 08:11 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
I’ve killed big game with the 243, 260, 7-08, 7x57, 280, 280 AI, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm MSM, 308, 30-06, 300 WM, and 338 Win Mag and 95% of the time no one on this earth could tell the difference between any of them by game reaction after the hit. Now to be fair most were hit where it counts. If you shoot something in the guts you generally have to shoot them again regardless of the cannon you are packing.
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I'm unsure why anyone would shoot something in the guys but I guess whatever floats your boat giv'er
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05-13-2018, 08:14 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Rimbey, AB
Posts: 671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckhorn2
Your comparing two different bullets. and ELDX vs an SST. Which one has better BC. ELDX. So what happens when you change that SST to 155gr ELDM from the 308. Rerun your numbers. The 308 has more velocity which means it has more ftlbs. It wins when you compare the same bullet design /weight. The creedmoor would be even slower pushing a 150gr bullet. The 308 would be faster again. The extra velocity makes up for the slightly lower BC inside these ranges. It also punches a bigger hole. What will bleed faster a vessel (elk/deer) with a .264 hole, or a .308 diamter hole. There is zero argument against this.
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Hornady make the ELD-X in 178 grain, with .552 BC, and claim 2600 fps for their Factory load. At 600 yards it is traveling 1736 fps, has 1191 ft.lbs. energy and requires 15.5 MOA. The 308 does have 36 ft.lbs. more energy but the bullet is traveling 100 fps slower so the 6.5 bullet may open up to the same diameter as the 308 bullet but you will require 15.5 MOA to get to 600 yards. Again the 308 will have much more recoil for very little gain in terminal performance. By comparison a 30-06 with Factory Win PP bullets will have 1107 ft.lbs. retained energy and the bullet will be traveling 1664 fps. I have found one of these bullets, nicely mushroomed, under the hide on the other side of a moose shot at 600 yards. The 270 with 130 Win PPP are traveling 1734 fps and have only 881 ft. lbs. retained energy but I never recovered a bullet from more than one moose after taking out both lungs at 600 yards (must have had sufficient momentum). For those who believe that the 7mm Mag is superior to these cartridges the Barnes factory TSX, with advertised velocity of 3120, has 1030.9 ft.lbs. retained energy and requires 12MOA to reach 600 yards.
The fact of the matter is that a well placed bullet from any of these cartridges, with loads mentioned, will perform very near the same at 600 yards and the moose, elk, or deer will be dead. No amount of rationalizing about what competitive shooters are doing, speculating about marketing, making claims about other bigger calibers being betteretc. will make a bit of difference but the felt recoil does to me at least. I heard all the rhetoric about lady's gun, 250 yard deer gun, my gun is bigger than yours etc. for years after I learned that the 7mm08 would do everything my 7mm mag could do with much less recoil.
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05-13-2018, 08:17 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
Thanks captain obvious
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And yet you can shoot three antelope in the guts and wonder why another shot is needed? Incredible.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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05-13-2018, 08:37 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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I would like to hear from the guys who actually own a 6.5 Creedmoor and don't think it's a capable big game rifle, as capable as gun writers the likes of John Barsness claim it to be. I haven't herd from anyone yet but that's not to say there isn't anyone.
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05-13-2018, 08:48 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,599
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Jim carmichel wrote in a outdoor life article that long and thin is preferred over short and fat when referring to cartridges, folks would do well to follow his advice.
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05-13-2018, 09:02 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowmanbob
Jim carmichel wrote in a outdoor life article that long and thin is preferred over short and fat when referring to cartridges, folks would do well to follow his advice.
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I believe he was referring to projectiles and with that in mind, he developed the 6.5 /300 WSM. I think he called it the 6.5 Leopard.
I built a 6.5x.270WSM (identical) at about the same time. Great combination with plenty of steam.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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05-13-2018, 09:08 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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It’s amazing how contentious this cartridge is. There is basically an identical thread on CGN with the identical person arguing for it. Probably the exact same person arguing against it too. Why do people feel so strongly for and against it?
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05-13-2018, 09:18 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
It’s amazing how contentious this cartridge is. There is basically an identical thread on CGN with the identical person arguing for it. Probably the exact same person arguing against it too. Why do people feel so strongly for and against it?
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I bet there's a thread on every hunting/shooting forum across the planet about it and the reason is because of all the hype/buzz.
The hype and buzz makes the haters hate more. Then there's the ones who shoot it, they love it and the haters make them love it more.
It's a vicious cycle really, but if the gun wasn't as good as people say there wouldn't be a 5 page thread on every forum about it imo.
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05-13-2018, 09:20 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
I bet there's a thread on every hunting/shooting forum across the planet about it and the reason is because of all the hype/buzz.
The hype and buzz makes the haters hate more. Then there's the ones who shoot it, they love it and the haters make them love it more.
It's a vicious cycle really, but if the gun wasn't as good as people say there wouldn't be a 5 page thread on every forum about it imo.
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It’s the same person and potentially people on both forums that I follow!
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05-13-2018, 09:27 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
It’s the same person and potentially people on both forums that I follow!
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Well I'm not on any Creedmoor threads anywhere but here.
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05-13-2018, 09:30 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Well I'm not on any Creedmoor threads anywhere but here.
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It wasn’t you. Regardless it definitely brings out the passion in the people who love it! What would the recoil compare to?
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05-13-2018, 09:32 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
It wasn’t you. Regardless it definitely brings out the passion in the people who love it! What would the recoil compare to?
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Like a 260rem, or 243 I suppose would be the next closest.
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05-13-2018, 09:35 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Like a 260rem, or 243 I suppose would be the next closest.
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Nothing major then. Sounds like an enjoyable round to shoot. Best thing about different calibers is that it’s an excuse to purchase more rifles!
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05-13-2018, 09:38 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
And yet you can shoot three antelope in the guts and wonder why another shot is needed? Incredible.
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Who said I did? I seen others shoot antelope with well placed shots with a creedmoor and they ran. They are tough critters.
I was using a 26 nosler and it worked substantially better.
You Should actually read the entire comment before jumping to conclusions
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05-13-2018, 09:39 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
Nothing major then. Sounds like an enjoyable round to shoot. Best thing about different calibers is that it’s an excuse to purchase more rifles!
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Personally, I figure it's one of those cartridges that's fun to shoot and cheap to shoot. This makes it something you'll shoot a lot, in turn making you a better shot and the gun a killer.
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05-13-2018, 09:40 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
It’s amazing how contentious this cartridge is. There is basically an identical thread on CGN with the identical person arguing for it. Probably the exact same person arguing against it too. Why do people feel so strongly for and against it?
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Happens every time something new comes out. There were probably paleoindians sitting around a fire arguing about whether the newest discovered color of flint would kill a mastodon as well as obsidian.
The creedmoor has some very real advantages in regards to design and factory ammunition. It works very well for people who buy and shoot. Handloaders cannot and will never accept the fact that some people don’t care about what can be achieved with handloading.
__________________
“Nothing is more persistent than a liberal with a dumb idea” - Ebrand
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05-13-2018, 09:40 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Personally, I figure it's one of those cartridges that's fun to shoot and cheap to shoot. This makes it something you'll shoot a lot, in turn making you a better shot and the gun a killer.
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Those are the ones I like. Not a fan of ten shots and a sore shoulder!
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05-13-2018, 09:42 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3blade
Happens every time something new comes out. There were probably paleoindians sitting around a fire arguing about whether the newest discovered color of flint would kill a mastodon as well as obsidian.
The creedmoor has some very real advantages in regards to design and factory ammunition. It works very well for people who buy and shoot. Handloaders cannot and will never accept the fact that some people don’t care about what can be achieved with handloading.
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I read that one can get very accurate factory ammo for it as well. I imagine it’s not cheap though but most good factory ammo isn’t.
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05-13-2018, 09:43 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Well I'm not on any Creedmoor threads anywhere but here.
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..and I'm not on the CGN forum. if it's me you're referring to.
Lots of Creedmoor chatter. Soon it will be a Hornady PRC thing and the CM will fade away.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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05-13-2018, 09:44 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM
I read that one can get very accurate factory ammo for it as well. I imagine it’s not cheap though but most good factory ammo isn’t.
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$30
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05-13-2018, 09:49 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
I would like to hear from the guys who actually own a 6.5 Creedmoor and don't think it's a capable big game rifle, as capable as gun writers the likes of John Barsness claim it to be. I haven't herd from anyone yet but that's not to say there isn't anyone.
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And id like to see all these 6.5 CM guys who argue how amazing it is past 500 meters, to actually show they can hit anything with it past 500 meters
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05-13-2018, 09:53 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
$30
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Not bad at all then. Might have to give it a try.
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05-13-2018, 09:58 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
Who said I did? I seen others shoot antelope with well placed shots with a creedmoor and they ran. They are tough critters.
I was using a 26 nosler and it worked substantially better.
You Should actually read the entire comment before jumping to conclusions
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I’ve shot enough antelope to know that there aren’t many big game animals more fragile than they are.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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05-13-2018, 10:17 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyksta
And id like to see all these 6.5 CM guys who argue how amazing it is past 500 meters, to actually show they can hit anything with it past 500 meters
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At that point it doesn't matter what the cartridge is. I Guarantee you this, if they can't hit a target with a Creedmoor at 500 yards they ain't got a hope in hell of doing it with a magnum!!!
Sheesh.
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05-13-2018, 10:34 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 161
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This really took on a life of it's own.
To be clear, I do not think the 6.5 creedmoor is some kind of do everything super cartridge that can replace a .30 magnum for example. However, it's far better than the .243 win for deer sized game in my opinion and probably just a step down from a .270 win at reasonable shooting distances.
Now obviously, a 26 Nosler will carry more energy and fly flatter, it will also recoil significantly more, and barrell life will likely be in the hundreds of rounds.
I do have a 6.5 creed, I like the mild recoil (which is very comparable to the .243) and short action, and the reasonably flat trajectory. Why is it hard to understand the practical, user friendly nature of the creed without comparing apples to oranges and bringing all kinds of magnums into the picture?
If you want to shoot a magnum, more power to you, who is criticising your .26 Nosler? What does that have to do with the category of cartridges that include the 6.5 creed, 260 remington, 7mm-08, .243 etc?
OBVIOUSLY the creed isn't significantly better, or even significantly *different* than the .260 rem....but it's far FAR more popular, and that has it's advantages. Resale, factory ammo choices, factory chambered rifle choices all spring to mind.
Imagine if the OP had asked "what rifle in 6.5×47"? the thread would be about what action and barrel to build a custom around, because there's a dearth of factory options....not much different for a .26 Nosler either afaik.
Lord, some of you are dense.
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05-13-2018, 10:44 PM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Morinville
Posts: 1,316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyksta
Get a 308 or a 270 or a 3006. They are all better than 6.5 cm
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I have a 308 and 7mm RM and a 25-06 and a 30-30 and a 38-55 and the already mentioned 6.5x 55 SM
What do I need those for
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05-13-2018, 10:47 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 207
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There is no eldx available in 30 caliber under 178gr that is why i choose sst to compare in the first place. Identical bullet design in as close as weight as possible in those calibers. You cant compare a 6.5m to 308 if your not using as close as set of variables as possible. Which bullet has higher bc a eldx 178gr or a 180gr rem corelokt. In 308. You cant compare ballistics of those bullets the eldx fired from same gun at same velocity, in all tests will win. The 308 will push a 143gr bullet faster than a creedmoor by a fair margin. Given same weight of bullet. So if we went closer in BC with same bullet then the 308 ballistics are same or better.
Is it fair to compare a 180gr bullet shot slowly vs a 140gr bullet faster. Who wins are we measuring energy its 308 still. Who wins if the creedmore tried to push a 180 gr bullet really slow and the 308 allowed to fire a 140gr match bullet faster. Taking the rifle/ recoil etc out of the equation is how you compare bullets. The shooter supplies the accuracy. (Wind and drop)The only way to compare hunting “ballistics” is with down range energy at the velocity that the bullets are designed to expand which most manufacturers is 1800fps . Yes the 6.5 will open up larger diameter but so will the 308, and the larger hole allows to bleed out faster. If we are again comparing the same bullet for a fair comparison.
Im not a 600 yard shooter. This is each hunters personal pick they choose a bullet and should know how low they are willing to accept for velocity and energy. If you are ok shooting sub 1000 ftlbs and right on the dieing edge of the velocity required for your bullet to function fill your boots. For a long shot why would you not want more energy and velocity then the bare theoretical minimum that the 308 or creedmoor can provide.
When comparing 308 to 6.5 creedmoor why not just say the creedmoor is just a similar option to a 308. The creedmoor didnt reinvent the 6.5 hunting caliber. If you want a bigger hole shoot a 308. Other options are 7mm08, 257, 270 win, all depends on the size of the caliber you prefer to hunt with.
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05-13-2018, 10:55 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakoShooter
This really took on a life of it's own.
To be clear, I do not think the 6.5 creedmoor is some kind of do everything super cartridge that can replace a .30 magnum for example. However, it's far better than the .243 win for deer sized game in my opinion and probably just a step down from a .270 win at reasonable shooting distances.
Now obviously, a 26 Nosler will carry more energy and fly flatter, it will also recoil significantly more, and barrell life will likely be in the hundreds of rounds.
I do have a 6.5 creed, I like the mild recoil (which is very comparable to the .243) and short action, and the reasonably flat trajectory. Why is it hard to understand the practical, user friendly nature of the creed without comparing apples to oranges and bringing all kinds of magnums into the picture?
If you want to shoot a magnum, more power to you, who is criticising your .26 Nosler? What does that have to do with the category of cartridges that include the 6.5 creed, 260 remington, 7mm-08, .243 etc?
OBVIOUSLY the creed isn't significantly better, or even significantly *different* than the .260 rem....but it's far FAR more popular, and that has it's advantages. Resale, factory ammo choices, factory chambered rifle choices all spring to mind.
Imagine if the OP had asked "what rifle in 6.5×47"? the thread would be about what action and barrel to build a custom around, because there's a dearth of factory options....not much different for a .26 Nosler either afaik.
Lord, some of you are dense.
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Sooo what’s wrong with giving first hand knowledge of seeing issues with this cartridge? I think your missing the point?
Everyone’s free to make their own decisions. Everything has its pros and cons
I love the 6.5’s but I’ve seen this cartridges have some real life, real world on game performance issues.
Take it or leave it
That’s your call
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05-13-2018, 10:55 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckhorn2
There is no eldx available in 30 caliber under 178gr that is why i choose sst to compare in the first place. Identical bullet design in as close as weight as possible in those calibers. You cant compare a 6.5m to 308 if your not using as close as set of variables as possible. Which bullet has higher bc a eldx 178gr or a 180gr rem corelokt. In 308. You cant compare ballistics of those bullets the eldx fired from same gun at same velocity, in all tests will win. The 308 will push a 143gr bullet faster than a creedmoor by a fair margin. Given same weight of bullet. So if we went closer in BC with same bullet then the 308 ballistics are same or better.
Is it fair to compare a 180gr bullet shot slowly vs a 140gr bullet faster. Who wins are we measuring energy its 308 still. Who wins if the creedmore tried to push a 180 gr bullet really slow and the 308 allowed to fire a 140gr match bullet faster. Taking the rifle/ recoil etc out of the equation is how you compare bullets. The shooter supplies the accuracy. (Wind and drop)The only way to compare hunting “ballistics” is with down range energy at the velocity that the bullets are designed to expand which most manufacturers is 1800fps . Yes the 6.5 will open up larger diameter but so will the 308, and the larger hole allows to bleed out faster. If we are again comparing the same bullet for a fair comparison.
Im not a 600 yard shooter. This is each hunters personal pick they choose a bullet and should know how low they are willing to accept for velocity and energy. If you are ok shooting sub 1000 ftlbs and right on the dieing edge of the velocity required for your bullet to function fill your boots. For a long shot why would you not want more energy and velocity then the bare theoretical minimum that the 308 or creedmoor can provide.
When comparing 308 to 6.5 creedmoor why not just say the creedmoor is just a similar option to a 308. The creedmoor didnt reinvent the 6.5 hunting caliber. If you want a bigger hole shoot a 308. Other options are 7mm08, 257, 270 win, all depends on the size of the caliber you prefer to hunt with.
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A 308 has a muzzle velocity higher than that of a Creedmoor when both are shooting the same grain projectile, however because of the laws of physics both being the same weight the 6.5 will soon exceed the speed and hitting power of the 308 because of a higher BC, but no matter the BC the 308 will always kick harder if stock designed are the same.
Long shots are not the goal, but having a cartridge that will have the energy to get the job done at my max big game animal range (which happens to be around the 600yd mark), with such mild recoil is sweet.
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