Suffield Elk Hunt, Fair Chase?

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

With populations like that it is only a matter of time before the predator numbers climb in the area.

There have been cougars snared in this area (WMU 502, 514) lately.

They are here because the prey species can support them.

Suffield will be no different.

Wolves have already been seen on the block.

The herd is growing at a rate (22%/yr) that is not natural and therefore the problems. I would encourage you to speak with the srd biologist. His office is in Med Hat. There has been increased pressure put on the base to open it up for more hunting from srd. I would expect that in the future you will see it open up even more.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by 12DLT

The herd is growing at a rate (22%/yr) that is not natural and therefore the problems. I would encourage you to speak with the srd biologist. His office is in Med Hat. There has been increased pressure put on the base to open it up for more hunting from srd. I would expect that in the future you will see it open up even more.

Which is a good thing.

[brownbomber]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Even if you could get someone representing those people to agree, they would be under no legal obligation to follow through with their commitment. As soon as the elk were released, nobody could keep some of those people from going out, and killing what they wanted.

In the years, since the first attempt, our F&W club has been asked , if we are interested in being involved in such undertakings.There was no support at all to get involved, because we are all too familiar with the behavior of the people in question, and we aren't willing to waste our time and resources, for a lost cause.

Very true. You can all have the right intentions, agreements in place and a few idiots will wreck it for all.

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

Which is a good thing.

Roger that Mike. It's a pretty cool area of the province to hunt.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by 12DLT

The herd is growing at a rate (22%/yr) that is not natural and therefore the problems. I would encourage you to speak with the srd biologist. His office is in Med Hat. There has been increased pressure put on the base to open it up for more hunting from srd. I would expect that in the future you will see it open up even more.

The rate of 22% is a lot of smoke really, more like 30 or better.. Even the estimated population in Suffield is rather light IMO..

But, for those that may be wondering.....

Looking good for a late season hunt there.. Probably be a lottery like last years quick announcement..

[packhuntr]

12DLT, post number 80,,,
Some carded WHITE indians did roll in this year, just before perimeter hunt number 1, and smoked a handful of crankers. Poached and yarded out, destined for taxidermy.
Anyone in verbal support of these treaties is either carded themselves or a bloody idiot.

[wbl170]

Totally agree! And right to the point Pack. Solutions?

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

12DLT, post number 80,,,
Some carded WHITE indians did roll in this year, just before perimeter hunt number 1, and smoked a handful of crankers. Poached and yarded out, destined for taxidermy.
Anyone in verbal support of these treaties is either carded themselves or a bloody idiot.

Well, I was outside the base hunting at that time as were a number of others. I only heard of 1 bull taken the first day outside the base on the north side. If you have proof of these accusations I am sure you have passed it along to the appropriate authorities. There was a boatload of range patrol, fish cops and Mounties around that week. FYI, I have never posted an opinion on FN hunting rights, like most of us I know ethical hunters who respect the land and the game on both sides as well as those I would not choose to hunt with. Hunters hunt, poachers poach, trespassers...you get the idea. Skin color and race really doesn't matter to me.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by 12DLT

Hunters hunt, poachers poach, trespassers...you get the idea. Skin color and race really doesn't matter to me.

[scrapper]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

much better plan than suffield. the no hunting deal there makes a sanctuary with no predators that has led to a population explosion. with wolves in the 500s, and hopefully eventually a legit hunt, numbers wouldn't go exponential there.

the big problem there though......do you guys have any idea what something like that costs? who is gonna pay for it?

X2

Absolutely correct, I am not sure why more cannot see or understand the facts here. ISB probably nailed it when he referred to the base as a sanctuary, because that is exactly what it is. These elk while clearly a wild herd have adapted to life in the sanctuary quite well. Name me one other area where the elk herd is in the midst of an unprecedented population explosion.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by scrapper

X2

Absolutely correct, I am not sure why more cannot see or understand the facts here. ISB probably nailed it when he referred to the base as a sanctuary, because that is exactly what it is. These elk while clearly a wild herd have adapted to life in the sanctuary quite well. Name me one other area where the elk herd is in the midst of an unprecedented population explosion.

Camp Wainwright....for similar reasons.

LC

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by scrapper

X2

Absolutely correct, I am not sure why more cannot see or understand the facts here. ISB probably nailed it when he referred to the base as a sanctuary, because that is exactly what it is. These elk while clearly a wild herd have adapted to life in the sanctuary quite well. Name me one other area where the elk herd is in the midst of an unprecedented population explosion.

There are lots of sanctuary's, if you want to call them that, in the province, provincial parks, land that has been posted for years, along with the Army bases. Although you can never hunt in the provincial parks or posted land, I am sure anyone who hunts in close proximity to an area like these has observed what happens when you hunt deer in these areas. Animals, become very familiar with their home areas, and have "learned" where it is safe to run to. I don't really feel that just because some of these animals have a safe place to run to, that they would not be considered taken by fair chase when out of these areas.
I realize this is not exactly like the Suffield hunt, but this hunt is pretty new, and over time I believe you will have more and more elk leaving the base, as it will no longer always be safe there. Due to this being their "home base" area, they are always going to be reluctant to leave it, whether it is considered a "sanctuary" by hunters or not, that is the nature of lots of big game.

[Pudelpointer]

I am amazed that this thread is still going.

Why are people so concerned that some First Nation guy might possibly shoot a big bull on the base and it might score high in Boone and Crockett?!?! Seriously, who gives a flying ....

B&C and P&Y honour big wild (no hormones or supplements) animals, and recognize the hunters who took them. It's not (supposed to be) a competitive sport.

I am sure there are a LOT of animals recorded with both organizations that have greater ethical concerns than the "legal" harvest of an animal on land which is not "open access".

[scrapper]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

And so was I.

Elk were native to the Suffield area prior to white settlement.

Yah sure, and prior to white settlement the area where the Elk are wasn't amongst the largest active army bases in the world!!!!!! That is a poor argument.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

I am amazed that this thread is still going.

Why are people so concerned that some First Nation guy might possibly shoot a big bull on the base and it might score high in Boone and Crockett?!?! Seriously, who gives a flying ....

B&C and P&Y honour big wild (no hormones or supplements) animals, and recognize the hunters who took them. It's not (supposed to be) a competitive sport.

I am sure there are a LOT of animals recorded with both organizations that have greater ethical concerns than the "legal" harvest of an animal on land which is not "open access".

X2

[scrapper]

Originally Posted by bobalong

There are lots of sanctuary's, if you want to call them that, in the province, provincial parks, land that has been posted for years, along with the Army bases. Although you can never hunt in the provincial parks or posted land, I am sure anyone who hunts in close proximity to an area like these has observed what happens when you hunt deer in these areas. Animals, become very familiar with their home areas, and have "learned" where it is safe to run to. I don't really feel that just because some of these animals have a safe place to run to, that they would not be considered taken by fair chase when out of these areas.
I realize this is not exactly like the Suffield hunt, but this hunt is pretty new, and over time I believe you will have more and more elk leaving the base, as it will no longer always be safe there. Due to this being their "home base" area, they are always going to be reluctant to leave it, whether it is considered a "sanctuary" by hunters or not, that is the nature of lots of big game.

For the most part your comments are absolutely correct, or at least I concur with what you said. That said even in provincial parks there are predators, for the most part Suffield has no predatation the base is a live fire base with lots of activity year round, the Coyotes just don't hang out there for obvious reasons. So not only are the Elk safe from people they are for the most part safe from any natural predators as well, this is clearly why this herd is experiencing a population explosion and requires an annual cull. This herd will always be a point of contention, some people call it a hunt some call it a cull I have even heard it being referred to as shooting fish in a barrel. In my mind its a controlled cull not a traditional hunt. I am not aware of any actual wild elk that do not have any natural predators to help control population.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by scrapper

Yah sure, and prior to white settlement the area where the Elk are wasn't amongst the largest active army bases in the world!!!!!! That is a poor argument.

I guess your right.........

That must be the reason why there are no wolves or black bear in the Cold Lake Air weapons Range..

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by scrapper

I am not aware of any actual wild elk that do not have any natural predators to help control population.

There are wild elk all over the mid-central prairie region....from Millet to Provost....what predators do they have?

or do you not consider those to be wild elk? And if not....why?

LC

[OpenRange]

Why can't the Alberta Government just time the hunts inside and outside the base better? They want to kill all these elk yet have the first two seasons off the base before they ever let anybody inside. Maybe they should just push the seasons back a bit outside the base and wait for training on base to end and then let people hunt inside and outside the base. The big problem I noticed was as soon as the first shot was fired outside all the elk jumped in and sat there, and with no pressure on them from inside they didn't need to worry until the 18th of November or whatever the base start date was. Start the hunts on base and in the surrounding WMU's in mid-November and the population control will happen.

[walking buffalo]

OpenRange,

The solution is not that simple.

The Elk still have a 113 thousand acre sanctuary on the base within the Suffield National Wildlife Area (NWA), and we need to remember that all other areas within the base are not always accessible for hunting due to a variety of reasons.

Elk learn very quickly were the "Home Free" line is.

The Federal Government could allow hunting of elk in the Wildlife Area for the conservation of wildlife or wildlife habitat. That might be a good next step to help increase the harvest.




Scrapper, I take it that you refuse to hunt within miles of any no-hunting land. Good for you.

Do you remember what the elk hunting was like around Cypress Hills before cougars became established?

[Flatlandliver]

The Federal Government could allow hunting of elk in the Wildlife Area for the conservation of wildlife or wildlife habitat. That might be a good next step to help increase the harvest.

My understanding from the srd bios is that what they are pushing for too.

[scrapper]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

OpenRange,

The solution is not that simple.

The Elk still have a 113 thousand acre sanctuary on the base within the Suffield National Wildlife Area (NWA), and we need to remember that all other areas within the base are not always accessible for hunting due to a variety of reasons.

Elk learn very quickly were the "Home Free" line is.

The Federal Government could allow hunting of elk in the Wildlife Area for the conservation of wildlife or wildlife habitat. That might be a good next step to help increase the harvest.




Scrapper, I take it that you refuse to hunt within miles of any no-hunting land. Good for you.

Do you remember what the elk hunting was like around Cypress Hills before cougars became established?

Yep to both, actually where I hunt there is no posted land come to think of it, you also have to travel hours by sled or quad to get there. And yes I spent many years in the cypress hills long before there were any reports of cougars....what's your point?? Look pal if you don't agree with my opinion good for you I could care less, it's just an opinion.

[Flatlandliver]

Paul,
In order for native American/ first nation hunters trophies to be eligible if taken outside state or provincially managed hunting seasons, there must be an associated management plan. I am not familiar with this particular location though if submitted I would request a management plan and at that time it would be reviewed.


Justin E. Spring
Boone and Crockett Club
Assistant Director
Big Game Records


Can Treaty harvested game outside of a legislated big game season qualify to be entered in to B&C?
Specifically, Suffield Alberta military base elk taken by First Nation hunters when there is no general or draw season there for bulls. Thanks, Paul

[H380]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

I am amazed that this thread is still going.

Why are people so concerned that some First Nation guy might possibly shoot a big bull on the base and it might score high in Boone and Crockett?!?! Seriously, who gives a flying ....

B&C and P&Y honour big wild (no hormones or supplements) animals, and recognize the hunters who took them. It's not (supposed to be) a competitive sport.

I am sure there are a LOT of animals recorded with both organizations that have greater ethical concerns than the "legal" harvest of an animal on land which is not "open access".

Lots of people give a flying ....Thats why this thread has drug on so long . If the guy were to shoot it in a regular season , no problem , I see the problem arising when he says he is subsistence hunting and just happens to nail a book bull . As for there being ALOT of animals in the books that have " special circumstances " surrounding them , I bet you are right . I'm afraid it would blow your mind how many are actually not taken " fair chase " .

[Lefty-Canuck]

I agree I think there is too much emphasis on "the book".....use it as a guideline not a mantra, amazing what people are willing to do and what loopholes and laws they will bypass for the chance to get something in "the book"

Just my opinion...

LC

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I agree I think there is too much emphasis on "the book".....use it as a guideline not a mantra, amazing what people are willing to do and what loopholes and laws they will bypass for the chance to get something in "the book"

Just my opinion...

LC

look at the posts on here about a trail cam pic or a harvest, without fail, first question is "what do you think he will score?", obsessed with it.....

[H380]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I agree I think there is too much emphasis on "the book".....use it as a guideline not a mantra, amazing what people are willing to do and what loopholes and laws they will bypass for the chance to get something in "the book"

Just my opinion...

LC

I agree lefty , it seems to get some people in trouble . The good part of the book is the fair chase statements they embody in the pursuit of hunting . Whether or not a hunter chooses to abide by it is strictly up to them .

[FWormsbecker]

I had the good fortune to draw the 3rd hunt for cow elk on the Suffield base. Calling this a hunt is a misnomer. This a herd cull and can best be discribed as an elk shoot. It is similar to a pheasant shoot in the United Kingdom. Is the hunt fair chase - I am of the opinion it is not. When the herd id found it is like a drive with shooters (I do not call them hunters picking them off the road when they get in range. The cull serves its purpose and if you are looking for elk meat this is better than buying it from an elk farm. I applied for this hunt for three reasons 1) I wanted to see what the terrain of the Block was like; 2) I wanted to see the big bulls: 3) I wanted to shoot a cow elk. I was sucessful in all three. Am I proud of myself shooting a cow elk under this situation - not really but the meat is good. Will I apply again - probably not.