Way too many tags....again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

LOL He's a troll. Whining about something he's actually doing himself. Total hypocrite. He'd protest spousal abuse and then go home and beat his wife. LOL I love the dude.

Im interested on how many antlered mule deer you have shot in this province, how many years you have been hunting them and how often you have chased mule deer in the past three years?

People here know what they are talking about because of a lifetime of experiences. The downward trend is apparent. You don't need a degree in statistics or biology to figure it out.

As for your spousal abuse comment, take that **** to the General Discussion forum where you post 80 times per day.

[Pudelpointer]

Don't forget Obama..., wait, or was it Harper? Oh screw it, I am pretty sure it is Duffey and Wallin's fault.

[JRsMav]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

LOL He's a troll. Whining about something he's actually doing himself. Total hypocrite. He'd protest spousal abuse and then go home and beat his wife. LOL I love the dude.

HAHA!

9 times out of 10 the guiltiest person is the one that preaches purity gents!

Look at every guy on this thread spouting off and spewing negativity. They are arguably the biggest culprits. Some guys are raised to accept responsibility for their wrongs, and in some cases to take responsibility for something you didn't do. And some guys were raised to be whiny babies that do nothing other than point fingers. Blame the parents. Lol.

The good thing is the amount of responses that actually add constructive conversation. The future does have promise as long as outdoorsmen talk about it and constructively debate on the matter.

[Wazy.338]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

Last season I was chatting with a fellow who claimed to have recently retired from an administrative job with SRD or whatever it's called these days. He said the province was under a lot of pressure from the insurance companies to reduce the number of wildlife/vehicle collisions and letting hunters kill more animals was a cheap solution. He may have been pulling our legs but he was quite convincing.

lol leg pulling he was

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Im interested on how many antlered mule deer you have shot in this province, how many years you have been hunting them and how often you have chased mule deer in the past three years?

I try to get one every year I can get a tag. this year I got a tag. Last year I wasn't drawn. BUT I'M NOT THE GUY SAYING THE POPUATION A BEEN DEVASTATED, RAILING AGAINST SRD FOR ALLOWING HUNTING, CALLING ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME AN IMBICILE, AND THEN GOING OUT AND HUNTING THEM ANYWAYS. Sheesh.... read.

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by Wazy.338

lol leg pulling he was

Unfortunately, not so.

Wildlife bio's get pressure from their political masters on issues just like that.

In fact, I know biologists increased the number of moose tags in the lower/middle RDR valley a number of years back, because there were an increasing number of vehicle collisions. Straight from the area bio's mouth.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

Give up WB. Some are not interested in how game management operates, nor how the statistics work (sadly, it appears SRD doesn't either at times).

The reality of game management is that politics and financial considerations play an inordinately large role in setting those numbers (carrying capacity, allowable harvest, etc.).

I understand the numbers.... but still reserve the right to b***h at/to/about ESRD.


ETA, you DID mention it before, but maybe it would be helpful to reiterate the part about allocating those tags to the user groups.

If G/O get 10% (or 125% as we saw in some zones last year), and landowners get an unlimited percentage, maybe that is why some zones only have 5 antlered mule deer tags....

"Give up". Do you work for SRD?

I'll stand up for the right to bitch regardless of the matter, I simply prefer people to have the facts to validate the bitching. Those who prefer to remain ignorant will not have much of a foundation to effect change.

My intent in asking the question is to hopefully enlighten a few as to part of the process in determining tag numbers. I'm sure that was accomplished. If the public could access the complete data used to determine tag numbers we could find out if policy is being followed and where "politics" is coming into play.


My reason behind not getting into allocation distribution at this time is to focus on the matter of Harvest goals and Resident allocation/licence numbers. Lets get this figured out first before getting into the nuances of further allocation distribution. If we don't have the first number in the equation, the rest are bound to be guesswork.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by slough shark

WB for the most part I feel F&W make a lot of the overall numbers decisions not too poorly, WHEN not influenced by outside lobby groups or when there is political interference. I've really seen such interference in my hunting zone as one year the tag numbers were cut by 75% the one year from the historical numbers for several years previous, the next year it shot back up to more normal numbers, the year after that they doubled the historical numbers when they called it a cwd zone right after the hard winter that killed A LOT of deer. Before that and in many other zones I don't have too many complaints about the numbers although several zones are skewed from outfitter tags and unlimited landowner licenses and the CWD culls...

Without question there are other issues that play into F&W's decisions on resident licence numbers where hunters are rarely informed on how they are being used. For example, the purposeful but secretive use of hunters to reduce moose populations for the experimental exercise in wolf control.

The variance in year to year resident allocation and the distribution of outfitter and landowner tags are also valid issues we face and deserve to be informed about. How often have resident allocations been estimated without a recent population survey? Has anyone seen the data for Landowner tags issued over the last five years? Has the Outfitter/Guide policy been followed using valid data in determining allocations?

Lots of questions here and no answers as SRD has been very reluctant to release the data.

[dshaw]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

In almost every discussion regarding wildlife management there is one common factor, a lack of understanding of how licence numbers are determined and an absence of public access to the data used by our biologists.


For some basic background on how and why tags are determined we can review the Management Plan for that species.

http://srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/W...t/Default.aspx

Management Plan for Mule Deer in Alberta (this plan is currently under review)
http://srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/W...er-Nov1989.pdf


Information of yearly Population estimates, harvest goals, success %'s has been difficult to access. Without this information we cannot develop an educated opinion of whether SRD is doing a good job or not, or if Resident hunters are getting a fair share of the resource along with sound management of the animals.



I am happy to finally say that I am making progress in obtaining this data in part thanks to an increased willingness from AFGA to help obtain the data. As I have done before, I will make this information available to all. Hopefully in the near future it will not take citizen initiative to obtain the information and that the government will simply make the information available online.


From what I have gathered to date I see the most critical issue to sound wildlife management and licence allocation being the inability for biologists to obtain current population surveys due to a lack of funds. There is too much of a guessing game going on.... If only hunters could work together to fight for an increase in the survey budget.



Imo, perspective is required to evaluate the current status of Mule Deer. How many remember MD populations during the general 3-point hunting days? The deer are doing Much better now, thanks to better management principals.

With consideration that some areas may be have a population below desired levels, overall MD deer are doing well. Certainly there may be fewer mature bucks in some areas, but lets also remember that winterkill is likely the main culprit for this, and that in a few years we will see a solid increase in older bucks.






Since trophyboy seems unwilling or unable to answer the question I posed to him twice, I'll throw it out to any and all.


To get an understanding of what "too many tags" means to you, what percentage of the population should be available for harvest in a season?



If the MD population in wmu XXX is estimated at 1000 with a ratio of 50 Bucks: 100 Does: 75 Fawns, What number of Buck (Antlered) tags to do think is acceptable using a success rate of 50%?

With those numbers I think 25-30 buck tags

[Don K]

For what it's worth I always put in my Antlerless mule deer draw and when successful happily buy and tear up my tag/tags... No better feeling than knowing I saved 2 or 3 does and their future fawns. It's not much, but I know others that do the same and it makes me feel a bit like I'm throwing it back in someone's face... I wouldn't and couldn't shoot a mulie doe.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Don K

For what it's worth I always put in my Antlerless mule deer draw and when successful happily buy and tear up my tag/tags... No better feeling than knowing I saved 2 or 3 does and their future fawns. It's not much, but I know others that do the same and it makes me feel a bit like I'm throwing it back in someone's face... I wouldn't and couldn't shoot a mulie doe.

Rumours are that anti-hunters do the exact same thing.

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by Don K

For what it's worth I always put in my Antlerless mule deer draw and when successful happily buy and tear up my tag/tags... No better feeling than knowing I saved 2 or 3 does and their future fawns. It's not much, but I know others that do the same and it makes me feel a bit like I'm throwing it back in someone's face... I wouldn't and couldn't shoot a mulie doe.

Then make sure you lie when/if asked to respond on a harvest survey. If you answer you didn't take one, then there will be extra tags the following year to hit the target harvest.... except wait, they will also think that success rates are lower as well, and the result will be even MORE tags. If you don't draw one of those tags, more does may be taken then there actually should be.

Just sayin.

[Deer Hunter]

Also, it is good to have several WIN cards going at once so that you can get even more antlerless tags in a year and play game manager all by yourself.

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Also, it is good to have several WIN cards going at once so that you can get even more antlerless tags in a year and play game manager all by yourself.

Lots of enforcement issues DH. I know guys who started building priority for their kids when they were 5 y/o.....

They checked the "eligible to hunt" box on the WiN form and started putting them in on draws.

[Unregistered user]

Originally Posted by Don K

For what it's worth I always put in my Antlerless mule deer draw and when successful happily buy and tear up my tag/tags... No better feeling than knowing I saved 2 or 3 does and their future fawns. It's not much, but I know others that do the same and it makes me feel a bit like I'm throwing it back in someone's face... I wouldn't and couldn't shoot a mulie doe.

FWIW you don't have to buy the tag once drawn as you have already ruined it for the next person in line. So you can be a crusader for $3 instead of $30.DB.

[hal53]

so...as I have said a few times, why not a limit on the number of apps. per WIN?, and further limit on numbers / household?????

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

Lots of enforcement issues DH. I know guys who started building priority for their kids when they were 5 y/o.....

They checked the "eligible to hunt" box on the WiN form and started putting them in on draws.

i that a no-nonsense stand up guy like you reported that to F&W. the proof woukld be very easy to find. so what did they do about it?

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Actually, there is. The variables have almost all been accounted for. Population estimate with sex ratios, desired population level and Harvest success rates. Mitigating variables all average. Doe harvest is not needed to answer this question as the Antlerless harvest goal will be determined on it's own using the same information.

.

cant have one without the other. it isnt possible to determine what the buck to doe ratio will end up without considering the antlerless harvest. think about that for a second and it will become clear.

and....i specifically said that i didnt think a ratio less than 1:4 is acceptable. srd doesnt agree with me.

thats just my take on it though....

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by JRsMav

Its usually no coincidence that the weakest link in any equation is usually the biggest mouthpiece that often resorts to name calling and pouting. Thanks for your valuable input pack. Keep up the good work. Well played sir. well played. When youre ready to add some sort of actual valuable take on the situation feel free to pipe up again.

As far as a complete kill off. Yes, that makes perfect sense and Im sure you have the data and interviews to back up that bold statement. Hell id be willing to bet bin laden and Redford were in a partnership and behind the big kill off too. Every guy that harvests a mule should be checking for a magic bullet from a second shooter as well.

Like I said before, its everyone elses fault other than your own right?

You want someone to acknowledge you so badly! Tell ya what, after youve had a hunting licence or two under your belt and you are beginning to get things figured out buddy, come on back ok lolol

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Rumours are that anti-hunters do the exact same thing.

Lol, and when vigilante management is all that remains...
Really? You honestly havnt drawn recent tags in this province to save animals from srd? ill go on a limb and say your definately in a minority among educated hunters.

[hal53]

Packhunter, your incessant rants on here get tiring, you know what?, you are not the only guy in the province that has hunted for more than 2 years, another news flash, other people than you see Antelope, weird eh?, and all you can do is belittle anyone that posts, then put up a pic of a mediocre Mule deer because you are such a nice guy you didn't have time for deer as you were helping find an Elk...we all have a passion Pack, you are not the only one, but your negativity and superiority complex gets a little..????

[packhuntr]

Just responding to being called out Hal, over and over by this guy. Hey glad you think my archery deer was mediocre,,, i guess we are in agreement on the state of this situation? All in all right on with the attack, looks like your having issue with something on a more personal level, thanks slim.
Btw, rant,, dont think so, just facts.

[hal53]

Yup, I guess we can agree , it's deplorable, for the record , I haven't shot a Mule Buck since that stupid 3 point rule, I get drawn for them every few years, saw a dandy 4 years ago, 3 miles out of my zone, but since 2009, they are in bad shape, however I guess the real hunters still go out and kill the breeding bucks long before the rut,...cause it's Alberta ...right???....

[packhuntr]

Hal sorry, guess it sounds like you disapprove archers in ab. How bout sheep hunters? They dont wait for the rut, and vast majority wouldnt dream of challenging themselves honing skills for years to be able to pull it off with bows. They just gun em down long range in august sept and oct??? Hope your dislike for our low harvest % archers is better reasoned than it sounds. Wont ask, so dont bother answering. Its detracting and wasting both our time man. Theres too many guys fighting srd on these issues for everyone to be wrong. Theres issues, they need be focussed on.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Hal sorry, guess it sounds like you disapprove archers in ab. How bout sheep hunters? They dont wait for the rut, and vast majority wouldnt dream of challenging themselves honing skills for years to be able to pull it off with bows. They just gun em down long range in august sept and oct??? Hope your dislike for our low harvest % archers is better reasoned than it sounds. Wont ask, so dont bother answering. Its detracting and wasting both our time man. Theres too many guys fighting srd on these issues for everyone to be wrong. Theres issues, they need be focussed on.

have no problem with Archers or anyone else, do have a problem with "me is right and everyone else is wrong", which you are the poster boy for....I agree, we will soon have 0 opportunities to hunt here, due to the gov't. mis handling things, the ridiculous draw system and the Bios wanting to kill off every deer due to some stupid CWD scare , that every other jurisdiction has decided it has been there forever, and a biologist ain't going to fix it, so you calling down everyone that does not agree with you, does not help the situation, or myself doing the same thing, we have to be united....personal vendettas and holier than thou attitudes will be the death of our sport.....

[trophyboy]

All of the arguing on this topic is ridiculous. The idea put forth on an earlier post was probably a good idea but it will never happen, heck not even the guys on here that said they would tear up their buck tag would actually do that....come on guys be honest. We as hunters can't stick together on anything.

The deer numbers are not good regardless of what some expert from okotoks who sits in front of his computer for 16000 posts says or what some SRD ***** clown with a "deer formula" says. Are they recovering in some areas, yes they are but overall the mule deer population isn't great. Will it make a difference if me and my buddies each kill one?...no because the outfitters and the cityots will kill them during rifle season anyways.

The system is severely broken so from now on if mule deer goes on draw for archery in the zones I hunt I will simply start to buy my landowner tag which is something I have never done and never agreed with but it's better than a guide rolling in and taking it. It is mind-boggling to me that Alberta residents have to wait to get a mule deer tag while people from out of the province and out of the country can hunt them. That is simply not right. Alberta's mule deer should only be hunted by Albertans, period, just like Saskatchewan. We have more than enough people in this province for this, we don't need more. But for now:

THIS IS ALBERTA BOYS TAKE WHAT YOU CAN WHEN YOU CAN!

[hal53]

Originally Posted by trophyboy

All of the arguing on this topic is ridiculous. The idea put forth on an earlier post was probably a good idea but it will never happen, heck not even the guys on here that said they would tear up their buck tag would actually do that....come on guys be honest. We as hunters can't stick together on anything.

The deer numbers are not good regardless of what some expert from okotoks who sits in front of his computer for 16000 posts says or what some SRD ***** clown with a "deer formula" says. Are they recovering in some areas, yes they are but overall the mule deer population isn't great. Will it make a difference if me and my buddies each kill one?...no because the outfitters and the cityots will kill them during rifle season anyways.

The system is severely broken so from now on if mule deer goes on draw for archery in the zones I hunt I will simply start to buy my landowner tag which is something I have never done and never agreed with but it's better than a guide rolling in and taking it. It is mind-boggling to me that Alberta residents have to wait to get a mule deer tag while people from out of the province and out of the country can hunt them. That is simply not right. Alberta's mule deer should only be hunted by Albertans, period, just like Saskatchewan. We have more than enough people in this province for this, we don't need more. But for now:

THIS IS ALBERTA BOYS TAKE WHAT YOU CAN WHEN YOU CAN!

tell you what Trophy "boy", how about if we all stop hunting and you and your Buds can carry on?, when you entitled morons decide there is enough deer around, you can let us know?...sound good????

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by trophyboy

All of the arguing on this topic is ridiculous. The idea put forth on an earlier post was probably a good idea but it will never happen, heck not even the guys on here that said they would tear up their buck tag would actually do that....come on guys be honest. We as hunters can't stick together on anything.

The deer numbers are not good regardless of what some expert from okotoks who sits in front of his computer for 16000 posts says or what some SRD ***** clown with a "deer formula" says. Are they recovering in some areas, yes they are but overall the mule deer population isn't great. Will it make a difference if me and my buddies each kill one?...no because the outfitters and the cityots will kill them during rifle season anyways.

The system is severely broken so from now on if mule deer goes on draw for archery in the zones I hunt I will simply start to buy my landowner tag which is something I have never done and never agreed with but it's better than a guide rolling in and taking it. It is mind-boggling to me that Alberta residents have to wait to get a mule deer tag while people from out of the province and out of the country can hunt them. That is simply not right. Alberta's mule deer should only be hunted by Albertans, period, just like Saskatchewan. We have more than enough people in this province for this, we don't need more. But for now:

THIS IS ALBERTA BOYS TAKE WHAT YOU CAN WHEN YOU CAN!

Ummmm so what you're really saying is ... damn you all for hunting my deer ,Only I should be aloud to hunt. You're not worried about the deer population so much as you are worried about a possible lost opportunity to hang a set of antlers on your wall.

[Pudelpointer]

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

JB is shooting straight.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

Then make sure you lie when/if asked to respond on a harvest survey. If you answer you didn't take one, then there will be extra tags the following year to hit the target harvest.... except wait, they will also think that success rates are lower as well, and the result will be even MORE tags. If you don't draw one of those tags, more does may be taken then there actually should be.

Just sayin.

I know their game. I buy my tags and if I'm called those animals are harvested...