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01-08-2011, 11:38 AM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Between Bodo and a hard place
Posts: 20,168
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We have a law now about dogs harrasing wildlife. we also have a lot dogs with their owners enjoying outdoor activities other than hunting. Been that way for years and years.
Anyone ever hear of anyone being charged for allowing their dog to harass wildlife? Even one case????
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I'm not lying!!! You are just experiencing it differently.
It isn't a question of who will allow me, but who will stop me.. Ayn Rand
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01-08-2011, 11:39 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,692
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I really think that some of these laws were made out of personal opinion for many more than any kind of actual studies.
The old cartridge length rule was one, yet the 44/40 has taken moose in other areas of the country with absolutely not problem.
As I stated earlier, I have hunted with hounds for many different types of game over the years, and there was no problem, but a dog running stock in the same area would be shot on sight.
It all comes down to pre-conceived notions IMO, what one person THINKS is bad is not always the way it is , or how anther person thinks.....
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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01-08-2011, 11:39 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Prosperous Lake, NT
Posts: 5,633
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True enough SH....I just think that any one with common sense can see the justification of this (the whole issue and not just game recovery). Maybe a good ol' grizzly crawling into the tent of someone famous will help out
tm
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01-08-2011, 11:40 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 56
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haha good stuff.
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01-08-2011, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey
True enough SH....I just think that any one with common sense can see the justification of this (the whole issue and not just game recovery). Maybe a good ol' grizzly crawling into the tent of someone famous will help out
tm
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It's not as common as one might think...
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01-08-2011, 11:43 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCLightning
Why is the law there? Is it to prevent dogs from "causing problems"? Not likely or there would be restrictions against all dogs at all times - especially birthing season. The only reason would be an idea that we should not be using dogs in the hunting of big game animals (with the exception of cougar) in Alberta. Dogs are used in the hunting of nearly every species of big game in some way in some part of the world. It is the concept of ethics, fair chase and custom that currently limits us. Open it up and you WILL have folks using dog in their pursuit of Sheep. Successfully or not is open to interpretation just as what constitutes success in the pursuit of game birds with dogs is highly variable. Allowing hunters to be accompanied by dogs would force us to re-evaluate what we as a society would deem to be acceptable in regards to the use of dogs while hunting for big game. Until that debate happens with clearly delineated results the grey areas of enforcement would overshadow any perceived benefits IMO.
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I will state first that I would like to have the law adjusted so a person could have their canine companion with them while big game hunting .How many lost animals would be recovered every year if it was allowed ?? You cannot hunt big game in Europe ( for the most part ) without a trained recovery dog.But I think the reason for the problem and law is very simply not the canine , but in the canines human partner....
Last edited by cover; 01-08-2011 at 12:09 PM.
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01-08-2011, 11:45 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfrog
We have a law now about dogs harrasing wildlife. we also have a lot dogs with their owners enjoying outdoor activities other than hunting. Been that way for years and years.
Anyone ever hear of anyone being charged for allowing their dog to harass wildlife? Even one case????
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Not stock or wildlife as far as big game goes, I know of a person in Ontario who was charged and convicted of shooting a hound that ran a fox through his property!
That idjit move cost the guy with the gun his guns, a healthy vet bill, and a bill of $3,000 to compensate the owner of the hound, a champion trialer.
IIRC, simply because he did not like dogs on his property, and houndsmen ( he owned two Dobermans ) he figured he was in his right to shoot the Walker and get away with it.
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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01-08-2011, 11:56 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfrog
Anyone ever hear of anyone being charged for allowing their dog to harass wildlife? Even one case????
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Nope, but I heard of people being charge with having their dog run at large or something like that.
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01-08-2011, 12:29 PM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Between Bodo and a hard place
Posts: 20,168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterDave
Nope, but I heard of people being charge with having their dog run at large or something like that.
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In the bush or in the city???
__________________
I'm not lying!!! You are just experiencing it differently.
It isn't a question of who will allow me, but who will stop me.. Ayn Rand
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01-08-2011, 01:10 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,163
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be honest, what your asking for is an unfair advantage over other hunters. staying within the current law by not allowing to chase etc does not prevent the canine from assisting you in hunting game animals.
to "not allow" is complied with by simply saying no. whether your dog listens or not doesn't really matter does it? it doesn't say prevent does it?
how do sheep react to a large canine in their visual range? do they bunch tightly together and stay put? seeing a canine across the valley may cause them to delay their flight from a hunter allowing someone else in the group to easily approach to within shooting range? while the canine sits harmlessly by his master.
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01-08-2011, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nait Hadya
how do sheep react to a large canine in their visual range? .
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My experience has been they head for the high country....quickly!
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01-08-2011, 01:23 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Prosperous Lake, NT
Posts: 5,633
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[QUOTE=Nait Hadya;791658]
how do sheep react to a large canine in their visual range? QUOTE]
They do not like wolves and tend to try to avoid them
I'm thinkin' that they don't differentiate between them.......sheep are prey animals. Fight or flight.....and they ain't scrappers.
tm
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01-08-2011, 01:23 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
My experience has been they head for the high country....quickly!
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so if the sheep saw your dog,fled into the open high country where you could now see them, would that not be assisting in your hunt? if he could smell them and alarmed them by barking,causing them to flee to open high country,would that not be assisting?
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01-08-2011, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nait Hadya
so if the sheep saw your dog,fled into the open high country where you could now see them, would that not be assisting in your hunt? if he could smell them and alarmed them by barking,causing them to flee to open high country,would that not be assisting?
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My dog has been taught not to bark and I much prefer an opportunity at unalarmed sheep. I definitely would not consider a barking dog spooking sheep as assisting the hunter; quite the opposite in fact but anyhow..... I guess we can sit here and pick fly crap out of the pepper all day long if we like or we can look at the big picture. I prefer the latter. With proper restriction placed on the use of pack dogs I see it as a win for hunters and quite likely grizzly bears. I appreciate the fact that you see it differently.
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01-08-2011, 01:32 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 56
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Geez...if the sheep could smell the dog they could smell the human with it.....if the dog weren't present i guess all you'd be is a bad hunter. Sheep hunting would not be enhanced by a dog running amok....lets try and keep the aliens from being harrassed by fido though...
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01-08-2011, 01:33 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
My dog has been taught not to bark and I much prefer an opportunity at unalarmed sheep. I definitely would not consider a barking dog spooking sheep as assisting the hunter; quite the opposite in fact but anyhow..... I guess we can sit here and pick fly crap out of the pepper all day long if we like or we can look at the big picture. I prefer the latter. With proper restriction placed on the use of pack dogs I see it as a win for hunters and quite likely grizzly bears. I appreciate the fact that you see it differently.
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where does it state that your silent, well trained pack dog may legally harass a grizzly bear?
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01-08-2011, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nait Hadya
where does it state that your silent, well trained pack dog may legally harass a grizzly bear?
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It doesn't and mine wouldn't. How did you come to that conclusion? He sure could alert me to the bear's presence long before I knew he was in the area and I've also found that having a dog in a backcountry camp is a great deterant to bears coming in. They seem to avoid camps with dogs...likely because scent is similar to wolves I suspect. I've never had a bear come in on a kill with a dog present either. I have without a dog though. Again, likely due to the scent. The same scent that would likely spook the sheep...
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01-08-2011, 01:58 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfrog
In the bush or in the city???
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Outside of the city in bush or agricultural land and especially where livestock is. If, the landowner calls it in before shooting it, which I believe he's within his rights to do, but I could be mistaken, you could be charged with having your dog run at large. I used to worry about this allot when I hunted with my bird dog and I'd be careful where I hunted with him.
Occasionally, I've heard people talk about "so and so's" dog running deer and sometimes I'll hear, "Yeah, well if I catch him doing it I'll shoot the SOB." I've never heard anyone say that they'd call it in though but it does happen.
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01-08-2011, 02:05 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
What's grey about this..
“It is unlawful to: allow your dog to chase or molest big game animals, furbearing animals or specially protected wildlife.”
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is this an alberta regulation that you have quoted here?
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01-08-2011, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nait Hadya
is this an alberta regulation that you have quoted here?
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Nope.
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01-08-2011, 02:28 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Morningside
Posts: 1,042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nait Hadya
be honest, what your asking for is an unfair advantage over other hunters. staying within the current law by not allowing to chase etc does not prevent the canine from assisting you in hunting game animals.
to "not allow" is complied with by simply saying no. whether your dog listens or not doesn't really matter does it? it doesn't say prevent does it?
how do sheep react to a large canine in their visual range? do they bunch tightly together and stay put? seeing a canine across the valley may cause them to delay their flight from a hunter allowing someone else in the group to easily approach to within shooting range? while the canine sits harmlessly by his master.
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I would consider this reaching a long ways
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01-08-2011, 02:28 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
My dog has been taught not to bark and I much prefer an opportunity at unalarmed sheep. I definitely would not consider a barking dog spooking sheep as assisting the hunter; quite the opposite in fact but anyhow..... I guess we can sit here and pick fly crap out of the pepper all day long if we like or we can look at the big picture. I prefer the latter. With proper restriction placed on the use of pack dogs I see it as a win for hunters and quite likely grizzly bears. I appreciate the fact that you see it differently.
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the alberta regulations state you are NOT allowed to harass or worry a big game animal (except permitted hunting)and i suspect it also applies to a protected species such as a grizzly bear.
how is your silent pack dog going to alert you to the bears presence? what is to stop your pack dog (anyone elses) from chasing a bear,squirrel,marten or a canada grey jay raiding your camp. your stating that having a pack dog with you willl save grizzly bears. i have not read anything that supports this. how?
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01-08-2011, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nait Hadya
the alberta regulations state you are NOT allowed to harass or worry a big game animal (except permitted hunting)and i suspect it also applies to a protected species such as a grizzly bear.
how is your silent pack dog going to alert you to the bears presence? what is to stop your pack dog (anyone elses) from chasing a bear,squirrel,marten or a canada grey jay raiding your camp. your stating that having a pack dog with you willl save grizzly bears. i have not read anything that supports this. how?
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He would alert me by his change in behaviour.....people who spend a lot of time with dogs learn to recognize these signs. Just by the way he smells the air I can tell if a bear is near. Houndsmen experience the same thing with their dogs. They can easily determine the freshness of a track by the dog's behaviour or if indeed a cat or bear is near. Dogs are pretty amazing animals....especially in the right hands.
The law and training would stop them chasing. We already have birds dogs running free...what stops them? How about cougar hounds? Considering pack dogs are typically at heel unlike the other two examples that are currently legal, it seems far less likely that the pack dogs would would engage in the activities you pointed out. If they did, the owners could be charged......it works everywhere else.......including here with bird and cougar dogs. What's to stop a lab or redbone from chasing a martin or deer? Training..... What stops my border collie from chasing cows on his own...training.....pretty simple actually...
There's nothing ground breaking here...we already have dogs accompanying hunters in Alberta.....this is just another use.
The fact that you are alerted to the presence of a bear earlier or that the dog scent keeps them away seems proof enough to me that it could save a bear's life. Perhaps you just missed that in my earlier posts.
Last edited by sheephunter; 01-08-2011 at 02:48 PM.
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01-08-2011, 02:49 PM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Between Bodo and a hard place
Posts: 20,168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterDave
Outside of the city in bush or agricultural land and especially where livestock is. If, the landowner calls it in before shooting it, which I believe he's within his rights to do, but I could be mistaken, you could be charged with having your dog run at large. I used to worry about this allot when I hunted with my bird dog and I'd be careful where I hunted with him.
Occasionally, I've heard people talk about "so and so's" dog running deer and sometimes I'll hear, "Yeah, well if I catch him doing it I'll shoot the SOB." I've never heard anyone say that they'd call it in though but it does happen.
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Can you show one verified example of someone being charged with allowing their dog to harass wildlife??
Or is this your proof:
"I've never heard anyone say that they'd call it in though but it does happen."
__________________
__________________
I'm not lying!!! You are just experiencing it differently.
It isn't a question of who will allow me, but who will stop me.. Ayn Rand
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01-08-2011, 02:56 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheephunter
He would alert me by his change in behaviour.....people who spend a lot of time with dogs learn to recognize these signs. Just by the way he smells the air...
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the same way he could alert you to the presence of sheep out of sight, above your camp. how my hounds react to a cat scent is within the law. yours alerting you to sheep,moose,elk,deer,bear would not be,would it? what your asking for is an unfair advantage over other hunters.
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01-08-2011, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nait Hadya
the same way he could alert you to the presence of sheep out of sight, above your camp. how my hounds react to a cat scent is within the law. yours alerting you to sheep,moose,elk,deer,bear would not be,would it? what your asking for is an unfair advantage over other hunters.
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Why wouldn't it be legal if pack dogs are permitted? There is no law currently written in Alberta. As I've stated a few times, I like the way the Yukon deals with it. Dogs smelling the air isn't illegal there or in any other jurisdiction that I'm aware of. Not sure why it would be here.
Don't your hounds give you an unfair advantage? Doesn't a flushing dog offer an unfair advantage? Again, we already use dogs in Alberta....if you want to keep picking the fly crap out of the pepper, fine, my dog could smell a sheep before I do and I'd recognize that behaviour...so what? Are you advocating banning all dogs in hunting? I'm confused nait...why is it okay for some and not others. I see your example of assistance as very weak compared to the assistance that a hound or bird dog offers.
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01-08-2011, 03:08 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfrog
Can you show one verified example of someone being charged with allowing their dog to harass wildlife??
Or is this your proof:
"I've never heard anyone say that they'd call it in though but it does happen."
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Now you want me to work.
I'll see what I can find for you about it. It's quite common to hear about so in the mean time maybe a landowner reading the thread can post his experience with it.
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01-08-2011, 03:08 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Rocky Mtn Hse
Posts: 3,006
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If you're pulling at straws here Nait, you should stop. It wouldn't give him an unfair advantage, because they would all be able to have a pack dog with them. Not sure where the unfair advantage line of thinking comes from?? Does having a long range rifle set up give one hunter an un fair advantage over a guy with open sights 30-30? No it doesn't, because it is each hunters choice as to what he wants to hunt with.
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01-08-2011, 03:27 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddave
If you're pulling at straws here Nait, you should stop. It wouldn't give him an unfair advantage, because they would all be able to have a pack dog with them. Not sure where the unfair advantage line of thinking comes from?? Does having a long range rifle set up give one hunter an un fair advantage over a guy with open sights 30-30? No it doesn't, because it is each hunters choice as to what he wants to hunt with.
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what we have established so far is that sheephunters dog(s) are capable of alerting him to game. he wants a k9 to accompany him for the purpose of a pack dog,but he is aware they can also assist him in hunting.
"Don't your hounds give you an unfair advantage?" no they do not. it is legal to hunt cats with hounds, it is not legal to hunt sheep with sheep dogs....lol
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01-08-2011, 03:32 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
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Posted for no particular reason other than I found it interesting.
http://www.canadianrockies.net/dogs/...-for-pets.html
In Jasper National Park – Dogs and Wildlife
Dogs are required to be on a leash at all times within the park, for both their own protection and to protect the park’s wildlife. Outside the park, the “stoop and scoop” laws are stringently followed so make sure to clean up after your dog.
Predators – Bears, Cougars, Wolves, Coyotes
Lions, Tigers and Bears, oh my! Wildlife can pose a hazard to dogs, and vice versa. Dogs can make a nice snack for a grizzly bear, wolf, coyote or cougar. It is even more dangerous for animals than humans because when a dog running at large encounters a predator, the predator may react either defensively (to protect itself) or aggressively (to kill/eat the dog). The dog may also run back to his owners for safety, bringing the predator back with him!
You don't want your dog bringing one of these guys back to camp.
In fact, an incident like this happened in the summer of 2006 when a dog was trailed back to the camp by an angry black bear. The result was almost fatal, but the dog’s owners got away with only scratches and a bite on the thigh. In another incident a bighorn sheep headbutted a dog, who was acting in a threatening manner, off a cliff.
Although dogs and coyotes often seem to play together, sometimes things can take a far less cute turn. Coyotes have been known to lure the dog away from its owners to kill it.
These rules are there for a good reason and park wardens have the authority to shoot a dog on sight if it is running loose and harassing wildlife.
Last edited by HunterDave; 01-08-2011 at 03:33 PM.
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