Minions ...

[tirebob]

Originally Posted by score

I really am curious here. I may very well be wrong but after two terms of Obama and the Democrats that have very much become more socialist, and would have pushed through more socialist policy if they could have, I want examples as to why some of you think that we are still a more socialist country.

We have far more left leaning tendancies in almost every regard as I can see it. Far more comprehensive public medical, far more liberal welfare, ei, refugee status (read that to mean ease of qualifying and higher public funded finacial support), generally higher taxes, stricter gun laws, more red tape for business and so on...

Again, I am not saying Obama isn't the most socialist pres the US has had and that if he could act unilaterally he wouldn't take it further, but I truly can't see one area where the US could be consider more socialist than Canada currently...

This is not a comment at all about thinking this is a good thing across the board... Just that I am trying to understand your thoughts on this aspect of the subject. I hope you are not taking my comment as confrontational because it really isn't at all. The view you have just piqued my interest and I would like to understand that view better. I am not someone so rigid to think I am always right and am open to expanding my ideas and philosophies with the input of other peoples insights and knowledge...

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by score

I don't think there is anything that I can say that will change your opinion.
But answer me this. Outside of your perceived behavior of the PM what is it that you want to see "changed" here? I hear this "we need change" mantra. Why and what?

In real terms, perhaps there is not much difference in policy among the three major parties and that is why it is difficult to identify a a single "socialist" policy?
The "change" sought is in LEADERSHIP? I have outlined why I feel it needs to change. Others calling for change in leadership may have other reasons.

[raab]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

In real terms, perhaps there is not much difference in policy among the three major parties and that is why it is difficult to identify a a single "socialist" policy?
The "change" sought is in LEADERSHIP? I have outlined why I feel it needs to change. Others calling for change in leadership may have other reasons.

The NDP are socialist. The reason the Libs won't merge with them is because of the different philosophies.

[score]

Originally Posted by tirebob

We have far more left leaning tendancies in almost every regard as I can see it. Far more comprehensive public medical, far more liberal welfare, ei, refugee status (read that to mean ease of qualifying and higher public funded finacial support), generally higher taxes, stricter gun laws, more red tape for business and so on...

Again, I am not saying Obama isn't the most socialist pres the US has had and that if he could act unilaterally he wouldn't take it further, but I truly can't see one area where the US could be consider more socialist than Canada currently...

This is not a comment at all about thinking this is a good thing across the board... Just that I am trying to understand your thoughts on this aspect of the subject. I hope you are not taking my comment as confrontational because it really isn't at all. The view you have just piqued my interest and I would like to understand that view better. I am not someone so rigid to think I am always right and am open to expanding my ideas and philosophies with the input of other peoples insights and knowledge...

Not seeing your posts as confrontational at all.

And yep I know about those examples you provided. My premise is that under Obama (sure if he could have gotten away with more he would have) who wanted to "transform the United States", and he has, he has made them a much more socialist country.

Your first paragraph describing Canada is exactly what Obama has done, is trying to do, and wanted to do. I would argue worse actually. The guy is a staunch socialist through and through.

[raab]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Our country is far more left in almost everything compared to the US, even under Obama... I am surprised you feel otherwise. That isn't meant to be any kind of jab or anything I promise, but really, in what area could one consider the US more socialist? I honestly think that is the first time in my 45 years I have ever heard someone in Canada have that opinion...

Would Obama want to be more socialist than Canada if he could? Maybe I guess, but as it sits there is no way I can see that they out-socialist our country...

And maybe thats why its time for CHANGE! Were becoming way to much like Americans, and I don't like it. I'm sure if Harper could he'd look at cutting the universal healthcare.

[score]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

In real terms, perhaps there is not much difference in policy among the three major parties and that is why it is difficult to identify a a single "socialist" policy?
The "change" sought is in LEADERSHIP? I have outlined why I feel it needs to change. Others calling for change in leadership may have other reasons.

I don't think Harper has been a poor leader for Canada at home or on the world stage.

Sure leadership is important but if you think the two other guys would make better leaders, I don't know what to say. With them as new leaders, you get the whole package party and all of their policies.

To me it's not even close to being worth it even if I believed Harper was a bad leader. That's the point. Gotta be careful what you wish for. It's why I said to try to put aside your dislike for the man and look at the bigger picture.

[tirebob]

Originally Posted by score

Not seeing your posts as confrontational at all.

And yep I know about those examples you provided. My premise is that under Obama (sure if he could have gotten away with more he would have) who wanted to "transform the United States", and he has, he has made them a much more socialist country.

Your first paragraph describing Canada is exactly what Obama has done, is trying to do, and wanted to do. I would argue worse actually. The guy is a staunch socialist through and through.

I agree he is a socialist president, but that alone does not make the US currently a more socialist country than Canada in regard to it's system, laws and leanings, which is how I interpretted the original intent to the question and view you initially presented... I do think I can see where you are coming from now though. If I am reading correctly you are meaning the US has made a bigger swing towards moving socilist in the last while than Canada has been moving... Is that a fair assessment?

[score]

Originally Posted by raab

And maybe thats why its time for CHANGE! Were becoming way to much like Americans, and I don't like it. I'm sure if Harper could he'd look at cutting the universal healthcare.

Ah, the old "we are becoming like the Americans" comment.

Wouldn't hurt us a bit. That said, I understand that many believe the way you do. United States Bad........................no they are not. Not even close. I bet you would prefer a world without them and their influence. They have been pretty much out of the picture for 7 years now. How's that working out for them at home and around the world?

Now if you want to discuss Barack Obama and the Democrats....

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

i was trying to explain the actions of Harper's staff to my 7 year old granddaughter and she said "oh, they sound like minions" ...and proceeded to tell me about the movie.
OMG, I thought, not only sounds like his staff, but to those so vociferously tow the Conservative line here on AO. "Dippers", meet your Conservative counterparts ... hereafter known as "Minions"

The description from google:

"Evolving from single-celled yellow organisms at the dawn of time, Minions live to serve, but find themselves working for a continual series of unsuccessful masters, from T. Rex to Napoleon. Without a master to grovel for, the Minions fall into a deep depression."

LOL. Its official then. WR should be included as well.

[Luxor]

Originally Posted by raab

And maybe thats why its time for CHANGE! Were becoming way to much like Americans, and I don't like it. I'm sure if Harper could he'd look at cutting the universal healthcare.

Pretty sure you misunderstood tirebob's point.
But it what major aspects are we like the Americans that concerns you so much????

And if you want change.....does that mean you are going to vote Liberal or NDP???

Like score said.....be careful

[raab]

Originally Posted by score

Ah, the old "we are becoming like the Americans" comment.

Wouldn't hurt us a bit. That said, I understand that many believe the way you do. United States Bad........................no they are not. Not even close. I bet you would prefer a world without them and their influence. They have been pretty much out of the picture for 7 years now. How's that working out for them at home and around the world?

Now if you want to discuss Barack Obama and the Democrats....

Its not that the Americans are bad, but that Canada has a higher standard of living and I'd like to keep it that way. Americans enjoy a far higher crime rate and the possibility of going bankrupt if you have a medical emergency. If you want to live that dream just head south.

[raab]

Originally Posted by Luxor

Pretty sure you misunderstood tirebob's point.
But it what major aspects are we like the Americans that concerns you so much????

And if you want change.....does that mean you are going to vote Liberal or NDP???

Like score said.....be careful

Whats wrong with the Liberals? I lived under the Liberals before and it wasn't that bad. Trudeau has as much experience as Harper did when he became PM so the whole he's not ready campaign is ironic. Trudeau also seems like the most trustworthy of the big 3. Will he be the greatest leader ever? Hard to say, but I've seen what Harper can do and am scared for Canadians if he gets another majority. I'm not sure what would happen with Mulcair, but I just don't trust the guy, and could see him killing our economy.

[score]

Originally Posted by tirebob

I agree he is a socialist president, but that alone does not make the US currently a more socialist country than Canada in regard to it's system, laws and leanings, which is how I interpretted the original intent to the question and view you initially presented... I do think I can see where you are coming from now though. If I am reading correctly you are meaning the US has made a bigger swing towards moving socilist in the last while than Canada has been moving... Is that a fair assessment?

Obama came in saying he wanted to "fundamentally change the United States". He most definitely has. If he had his way they would be Europe.
Luckily their system is set up to prevent a President to do anything he wants. That said, he is, or at least would want to be an Autocrat. His administration and the impotent Washington Republicans have indeed turned the US into a country that barely resembles what America has been and should be. Socialist.

I said before that they are two different systems of government, Canada and the US. I believe that Harper is far more right than Obama.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by raab

Whats wrong with the Liberals? I lived under the Liberals before and it wasn't that bad. Trudeau has as much experience as Harper did when he became PM so the whole he's not ready campaign is ironic. Trudeau also seems like the most trustworthy of the big 3. Will he be the greatest leader ever? Hard to say, but I've seen what Harper can do and am scared for Canadians if he gets another majority. I'm not sure what would happen with Mulcair, but I just don't trust the guy, and could see him killing our economy.

I have family in Ontario and they have a different view on the Liberals. My brother pays over $300.00 a month for Electricity and has natural gas for heat. Small 2 bedroom house.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/05/31...nergy-disaster

[tirebob]

Originally Posted by score

I said before that they are two different systems of government, Canada and the US. I believe that Harper is far more right than Obama.

Absolutely in agreement...

[score]

Originally Posted by raab

Its not that the Americans are bad, but that Canada has a higher standard of living and I'd like to keep it that way. Americans enjoy a far higher crime rate and the possibility of going bankrupt if you have a medical emergency. If you want to live that dream just head south.

Getting close to 1/2 a billion people compared to approx. 40 million.

Lack of leadership and poor policy down south.

It's really not that hard.

Canadians have for years been anti-American as they try desperately to forge their own identity in such a way that is anything but resembling the US.

[CaberTosser]

To me personally the Minion observation comes to mind when I see people sharing all the anti-conservative meme's on Facebook or in the comments sections of various online news media where they blame the Conservatives for everything from global warming to male pattern baldness. Sure the Conservatives are not perfect, but the whole "Blame Harper" thing is even blaming him for things that he'd not even have cross his desk, things that would fall under various non-partisan gov't departments. The blame Harper movement seems to think that he mircromanages every single aspect of every department and each individual government worker. Get realistic people..... the hyperbole train has gone completely off the rails.

I had one friend on Facebook even try to go on that the armed forces would get better equipped under the other parties, if that's not an absolutely laughable premise then I've never heard one. Naturally I had to disintegrate his claim by posting a lot of facts listing the new equipment we've gotten under the Conservatives, but also had to point out how military procurement works beyond the political parties, which either got him to see the light beyond his personal bias, or simply to finally shut up.

[Wild&Free]

Not being more like the Americans.

The US political dynamic has been to vote for one entrenched party or the other entrenched party, both in the pocket of the uber wealthy and corrupt financial institutions.

Canada has bounced back and forth between the same dynamic for most of it's history with Quebec being in opposition benches. The NDP is a third option that is not the Quebec only Bloc. Those who want "change" see the NDP on some level as breaking from that right/left two party dynamic.

just an observation.

I also don't think the US has been absent from global affairs at all. Arab spring, the Ukrainian Coup, encircling of China and Russia... The Wolfowitz doctrine in Foreign Affairs is still running strong trying to maintain a uni-polar global system.

[raab]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I have family in Ontario and they have a different view on the Liberals. My brother pays over $300.00 a month for Electricity and has natural gas for heat. Small 2 bedroom house.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/05/31...nergy-disaster

I just hope the same thing doesn't happen here under the NDP with there talk of getting rid of the coal plants…

[score]

Originally Posted by raab

Whats wrong with the Liberals? I lived under the Liberals before and it wasn't that bad. Trudeau has as much experience as Harper did when he became PM so the whole he's not ready campaign is ironic. Trudeau also seems like the most trustworthy of the big 3. Will he be the greatest leader ever? Hard to say, but I've seen what Harper can do and am scared for Canadians if he gets another majority. I'm not sure what would happen with Mulcair, but I just don't trust the guy, and could see him killing our economy.

Not trying to be a d*nk but after reading this post, our discussion is over. If that's what you think.......................like Luxor said, I'd be wasting my time.

Have a nice day though

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by raab

I just hope the same thing doesn't happen here under the NDP with there talk of getting rid of the coal plants…

X2

[score]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

To me personally the Minion observation comes to mind when I see people sharing all the anti-conservative meme's on Facebook or in the comments sections of various online news media where they blame the Conservatives for everything from global warming to male pattern baldness. Sure the Conservatives are not perfect, but the whole "Blame Harper" thing is even blaming him for things that he'd not even have cross his desk, things that would fall under various non-partisan gov't departments. The blame Harper movement seems to think that he mircromanages every single aspect of every department and each individual government worker. Get realistic people..... the hyperbole train has gone completely off the rails.

I had one friend on Facebook even try to go on that the armed forces would get better equipped under the other parties, if that's not an absolutely laughable premise then I've never heard one. Naturally I had to disintegrate his claim by posting a lot of facts listing the new equipment we've gotten under the Conservatives, but also had to point out how military procurement works beyond the political parties, which either got him to see the light beyond his personal bias, or simply to finally shut up.

Well said CT but facts seldom do anything to change the "minds" of people like that.

[raab]

Originally Posted by score

Not trying to be a d*nk but after reading this post, our discussion is over. If that's what you think.......................like Luxor said, I'd be wasting my time.

Have a nice day though

Can you tell me where I'm wrong? Harper went directly into politics because he couldn't get a job with his economics degree. Also what has Harper done that's made him a great leader? I heard of this great economy we had, only to see it sinking faster then the titanic because he put all his eggs in the oil basket.

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

Smart people engage with their critics, ignorant people ignore criticism.

Those who can , do, those who can't teach.

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by score

Well said CT but facts seldom do anything to change the "minds" of people like that.

The facts of Harper's economic performance don't change many minds either. It's not as great as he's leading you on to believe.

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Those who can , do, those who can't teach.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by raab

Can you tell me where I'm wrong? Harper went directly into politics because he couldn't get a job with his economics degree. Also what has Harper done that's made him a great leader? I heard of this great economy we had, only to see it sinking faster then the titanic because he put all his eggs in the oil basket.

The economy is sinking because of the world. Countries are going bankrupt, look at China ect. Fact is, Canada has been fairing pretty well considering other countries.

There is a reason for this.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-...port-1.2470040

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by raab

Whats wrong with the Liberals? I lived under the Liberals before and it wasn't that bad. Trudeau has as much experience as Harper did when he became PM so the whole he's not ready campaign is ironic. Trudeau also seems like the most trustworthy of the big 3. Will he be the greatest leader ever? Hard to say, but I've seen what Harper can do and am scared for Canadians if he gets another majority. I'm not sure what would happen with Mulcair, but I just don't trust the guy, and could see him killing our economy.

....

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

The economy is sinking because of the world. Countries are going bankrupt, look at China ect. Fact is, Canada has been fairing pretty well considering other countries.

There is a reason for this.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-...port-1.2470040

The US economy is picking up steam and growing, Canada will be officially in a recession when the stats come out next month. Exports are tanking as evident in our sinking dollar, and manufacturing has been gutted and won't be able to take advantage of that situation in part due to Harper's deals with China.

out of the 34 most advanced industrial economies in the world, Canada is in the bottom half performance wise.

[Luxor]

Originally Posted by score

Not trying to be a d*nk but after reading this post, our discussion is over. If that's what you think.......................like Luxor said, I'd be wasting my time.

Have a nice day though

I tried to warned you score.

Well at least you know better now