Reply to APOS sheep statement

[416 Ultramag]

I think that there are so many variables to take into account, that each user group uses the stats to best represent themselves.

For the record I strongly oppose the APOS statement. That being said there are changes coming and if hunters don't stand together, sheep hunting will become a once in a lifetime hunt.

This is just my opinion but there has to be some sort of compromise.

I think that all sheep zones should be a full curl min or 10 years old. I know some will say aging is impossible for bighorns but please let me finish.
I know aging is hard with bighorns but I propose we do it two ways 1. growth rings on horns. 2. must pack out tooth for SRD to age. which ever is the oldest is the age of sheep.

Examples of possible hunts and regs.

You shoot full curl - same as now miss one year.

You shoot anything under full curl but is 10 years old - same as now.

you shoot anything under full curl but is between 8-9 but under 10 - you keep ram but cannot hunt sheep for 5 years.

you shoot anything under full curl but is over 3/4 under 8 but above 6 you keep ram but now miss 10 years of sheep hunting.

you shoot anything under full curl but is less than 6 years old and below 3/4 illegal and face whatever charges that court does. min 10 years wait to hunt sheep plus fine.

We want to harvest the most mature trophies possible that is why I have used the examples above. Your 11 year old ram that is 3/4 curl is still a great trophy as long as it is really 11 years old. And not a 6 year old youngster.

I do not want to see sheep put on draw as everyone will apply including people who do not hunt sheep, but will apply anyway just because they can.
Furthermore once again my opinion only. I would hazard a guess that most people when hunting trophy sheep are doing it for the trophy, not just to put meat on the table.
Maybe a trophy sheep tag should cost $250. This would also possibly eliminate some deer and elk hunters who buy a sheep tag just in case.

Whatever happens, residents should always be given priority over non residents. And if changes reflect less hunting opportunities for residents the same percentage decrease should also apply to non residents.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by bdub

The reason for this is because the trophy quality of sheep hunting in Alberta is at best poor. What do you expect when we are killing sheep with lamb tips the minute they reach 4/5. (Sure there are big old rams especially in K-country that survive to over 8 before they get nailed, but that is the exception.) Who wants to pay 30-40000 grand for a 50% chance of harvesting a squeaker 5-7 year old ram. If everybody could get around the idea of a few years of poor sheep harvests that would be the result of full curl, (or a 4/5 broomed or full curl)we could begin to see a good number of decent rams come out of Alberta again. Not just for residents, but for the non-residents as well. We wouldn't need anyone to take a reduction in hunting opportunity. The outfitters would have no trouble finding hunters for those remaining allocations. As it is now I believe we are one more step closer to LEH unless we wake the heck up and do whats best for the sheep herd and focus on harvesting older rams, something no user group believes is not beneficial.

Other then the global economic crisis which started in 2009 there was over 80 NR sheep hunters booked per year. That's over 90% of the hunts sold each year. I don't have the info for the last 4 years but I'd be willing to bet it has once again returned to over 80 NR hunters per year.

Despite how you feel Alberta is hands down the number one spot for non residents to hunt sheep. Believe me, I talk to at least 2 or 3 of them each year

[GFY]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

I think some of the booking issues are trophy quality related but a lot are economy related as well. I hear what your saying about young rams being taken maybe the rule should just be double broomed and 3/4 or something to allow for shorter old rams to be taken. Whatever they come up with it wont be popular with one group or another.

Who says they are changing anything? There is and has been no actual decisions as all the data they are using is far from solid info to make a change. That was the consensus with all stakeholders before the BS letter from the joke called apos. Sure glad they just want all residents on a draw to make her selves more money guiding residents and getting almost no competition like they have now. The funniest part of this is if there is any change it should be by cutting all there tags as residents come first. This is written in SRD's mandate/policy.

[GFY]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Other then the global economic crisis which started in 2009 there was over 80 NR sheep hunters booked per year. That's over 90% of the hunts sold each year. I don't have the info for the last 4 years but I'd be willing to bet it has once again returned to over 80 NR hunters per year.

Despite how you feel Alberta is hands down the number one spot for non residents to hunt sheep. Believe me, I talk to at least 2 or 3 of them each year

Of course it is cause we put NRA/NR ahead of residents and they are guaranteed tags. But I think BC is starting to become #1 as every person I know who came up north on a sheep hunt has gone to BC for a bighorn.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by GFY

Of course it is cause we put NRA/NR ahead of residents and they are guaranteed tags. But I think BC is starting to become #1 as every person I know who came up north on a sheep hunt has gone to BC for a bighorn.

Ahead ?

Got ya... Because there are far more NRs hunting sheep then Residents. I understand now. Thanks

[GFY]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Ahead ?

Got ya... Because there are far more NRs hunting sheep then Residents. I understand now. Thanks

You don't think that NR have more opportunity than a resident if you have money??? LMFAO. OK! NR sheep hunters are killing more than there % as well.. they should not have 20% of the harvest to begin with but again $$$ are involved so someone got paid off I bet in that deal. That is how it works in Alberta.

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by GFY

Who says they are changing anything? There is and has been no actual decisions as all the data they are using is far from solid info to make a change. That was the consensus with all stakeholders before the BS letter from the joke called apos. Sure glad they just want all residents on a draw to make her selves more money guiding residents and getting almost no competition like they have now. The funniest part of this is if there is any change it should be by cutting all there tags as residents come first. This is written in SRD's mandate/policy.

If you don't think sheep reg changes are coming your fooling yourself

[GFY]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

If you don't think sheep reg changes are coming your fooling yourself

What is the problem we are fixing? I am not fooling myself. I personal have no problem finding all age classes of rams every year. This year proved how many great rams are around. So again what is the problem we are trying to fix? Sheep hunting is hard and takes a while to figure out. Is the fix because people are complaining? Poor counts as they are done the wrong time of the year? Or because srd never fallowed the 93 sheep management plan?

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by GFY

What is the problem we are fixing? I am not fooling myself. I personal have no problem finding all age classes of rams every year. This year proved how many great rams are around. So again what is the problem we are trying to fix? Sheep hunting is hard and takes a while to figure out. Is the fix because people are complaining? Poor counts as they are done the wrong time of the year? Or because srd never fallowed the 93 sheep management plan?

It doesn't matter if there is a problem or not, the gov is intending to change things and they will. The "fix's are resulting from people offering options/solutions before the gov dictates new regs.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by GFY

You don't think that NR have more opportunity than a resident if you have money??? LMFAO. OK! NR sheep hunters are killing more than there % as well.. they should not have 20% of the harvest to begin with but again $$$ are involved so someone got paid off I bet in that deal. That is how it works in Alberta.

Every man, women and kid over 12 years old in the entire province can go buy an over the counter sheep tag every year of their life and hunt up to 65 days a year for sheep. Unless of course they killed one the previous year.

With the exception of BC where their sheep hunting opportunities are severely limited compared to ours there is nowhere else on the planet where residents have so much opportunity. Our sheep hunts are the envy of EVERTBODY !

[GFY]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

If you don't think sheep reg changes are coming your fooling yourself

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

It doesn't matter if there is a problem or not, the gov is intending to change things and they will. The "fix's are resulting from people offering options/solutions before the gov dictates new regs.

I understand what they are trying but a change has to be warranted to be done. They can't just change it just cause. That is not how it works and they know it.

[GFY]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Every man, women and kid over 12 years old in the entire province can go buy an over the counter sheep tag every year of their life and hunt up to 65 days a year for sheep. Unless of course they killed one the previous year.

With the exception of BC where their sheep hunting opportunities are severely limited compared to ours there is nowhere else on the planet where residents have so much opportunity. Our sheep hunts are the envy of EVERTBODY !

Yes you are right. This is also the only place in the world that let's 20% of the harvest go to non-residents. So what is your point?

my point is there are to many sheep dieing from non-residents and residents guided by guides/Outfitters.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by GFY

Yes you are right. So what is your point? .

You said Alberta puts NR ahead of Residents. My point was you are wrong !!!

Alberta has the best system in existence, bar none. Nowhere else has more opportunity.

Too many sheep being killed by outfitters for residents and non residents is just your opinion. The above statements are irrefutable facts, that's also my point.

[Stonegoat]

Originally Posted by GFY

Yes you are right. This is also the only place in the world that let's 20% of the harvest go to non-residents. So what is your point?

my point is there are to many sheep dieing from non-residents and residents guided by guides/Outfitters.

Wrong. BC allocates up to 40% of the harvest to NRs.

[GFY]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

You said Alberta puts NR ahead of Residents. My point was you are wrong !!!

Alberta has the best system in existence, bar none. Nowhere else has more opportunity.

Too many sheep being killed by outfitters for residents and non residents is just your opinion. The above statements are irrefutable facts, that's also my point.

How is it when the average is 3% higher than the allotment given. The part that is not on your graph is resident harvest through guides and Outfitters.

[GFY]

Originally Posted by Stonegoat

Wrong. BC allocates up to 40% of the harvest to NRs.

Not for bighorn it is not. Thin horns yes which is wrong.

[Luckwell]

Keep wait times, horn size the same. Change the licence system to:

Once in a lifetime tag for non-residents. Twice in a lifetime tag for residents. Residents that have shot 1 or more Rams are now down to 1 ram left in their life.

NR that come up and spend 35k to shoot a squeaker, be my guest. You won't be coming back to shoot another.

Residents that want to shoot 2 squeakers, be my guest. There won't be a 3rd or 4th.

The fact of the matter is that the trophy will always be in the eye of the hunter. My dad would shoot the first legal ram he could and would tear up over his accomplishment as a 60 year old. I do believe that most of us fanatics will hold out for our booner. Result would be leaving more up and coming 4/5 curl 5-6 year olds on the mountain. That still allows us opportunities to chase that trophy ram year after year but will make the hunter decide what he wants "his" trophy to be.

The quality of the Rams will increase not because the regs got changed by a government official who has only seen sheep on the highway. The quality will increase because most of us will raise the bar to the animals we consider trophies.

Just my thoughts of keeping residents and NR on the mountains without crippling residents passions and outfitters livelihood.

Next point is the stakeholders need to stick together even if they disagree with each other. APOS putting themselves in an island like that does nothing for their image with residents or their influence with the regulating authorities. Curious if Mr. Lenz will be at this years WSF meeting this March. I imagine he would be facing a lot of questions from all of us. Ha

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by GFY

I understand what they are trying but a change has to be warranted to be done. They can't just change it just cause. That is not how it works and they know it.

They have "justification" via their own consultant with the genetic harm theory, at the end of the day if the minister signs off on it its a done deal

[GFY]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

They have "justification" via their own consultant with the genetic harm theory, at the end of the day if the minister signs off on it its a done deal

That is not justification. That is only a theory which has been stated by bios that that is not ghe case. At the end of the day this is not getting pushed through the minister and has been stated by her office already. So again I bet nothing happens as all stakeholders do have a direct say to the minister so it is not just srd telling a story of how it is. Now we all have a better say.

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Every man, women and kid over 12 years old in the entire province can go buy an over the counter sheep tag every year of their life and hunt up to 65 days a year for sheep. Unless of course they killed one the previous year.

With the exception of BC where their sheep hunting opportunities are severely limited compared to ours there is nowhere else on the planet where residents have so much opportunity. Our sheep hunts are the envy of EVERTBODY !

Yep, all true.

[pikeslayer22]

Originally Posted by Stonegoat

Wrong. BC allocates up to 40% of the harvest to NRs.

Only if you hire a guide...In Ab you NR's can accompany a resident and apply in the more coveted tags

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by GFY

That is not justification. That is only a theory which has been stated by bios that that is not ghe case. At the end of the day this is not getting pushed through the minister and has been stated by her office already. So again I bet nothing happens as all stakeholders do have a direct say to the minister so it is not just srd telling a story of how it is. Now we all have a better say.

It is justification if your on the government side of things. You have to realize at the end of the day APOS, Wild Sheep, AFGA are just input groups, the gov will do what it wants.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Every man, women and kid over 12 years old in the entire province can go buy an over the counter sheep tag every year of their life and hunt up to 65 days a year for sheep. Unless of course they killed one the previous year.

With the exception of BC where their sheep hunting opportunities are severely limited compared to ours there is nowhere else on the planet where residents have so much opportunity. Our sheep hunts are the envy of EVERTBODY !

If only other species would be the same rules as sheep.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by huntwat

If only other species would be the same rules as sheep.

You mean like Whitetail, Mule Deer, Elk, archery Moose, Black bear, Cougar and wolves ??? Oh ya... Just imagine...

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

You mean like Whitetail, Mule Deer, Elk, archery Moose, Black bear, Cougar and wolves ??? Oh ya... Just imagine...

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. No tag for non-res if they are on draw, or at least non-res enter the draw. The same as sheep.

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by huntwat

If only other species would be the same rules as sheep.

HW
Let's say moose changed in outfitting and all the outfitter tags went to some kind of a draw system and even decreased every single allocation to less than 10% of resident harvest province wide in every WMU.

How would this benefit us as residents?

What would we gain

Do u think draw times would decrease at all?

I would really like to better understand this theory.

B.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by Brock1

HW
Let's say moose changed in outfitting and all the outfitter tags went to some kind of a draw system and even decreased every single allocation to less than 10% of resident harvest province wide in every WMU.

How would this benefit us as residents?
Every change doesn't have to be a benefit. Even a change to full curl doesn't benefit anyone except the 4/5ths rams.(only APOS thinks there should be a benefit in there suggested changes.)

What would we gain. A FAIR opportunity

Do u think draw times would decrease at all? No

I would really like to better understand this theory. I will repeat. NO non-res should have MORE opportunity than a res. Right now no non-res has more sheep opportunity than a res, unless they buy the ministers tag, which I can live with.

B.

...

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by huntwat

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. No tag for non-res if they are on draw, or at least non-res enter the draw. The same as sheep.

Every animal I listed can be hunted with an over the counter tag by a resident every year if they want.

You can also get an undersubscribed rifle moose tag every year if you want as well so add that too.

I guess the only thing you can't hunt every year is Antelope or Turkey, and big horn ewes. Actually you could almost hunt ewes every year so I could prob take them off the list.

Wow !!! I just realized how amazing all our hunting opportunities in this province really are...

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Every animal I listed can be hunted with an over the counter tag by a resident every year if they want. Yes, and those are the ones that should be offered to non-res

You can also get an undersubscribed rifle moose tag every year if you want as well so add that too. ditto above

I guess the only thing you can't hunt every year is Antelope or Turkey, and big horn ewes. Actually you could almost hunt ewes every year so I could prob take them off the list. Antelope should not be offered to non-res at all

Wow !!! I just realized how amazing all our hunting opportunities in this province really are...

Yay for you!!!
You are amazing!!!

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by huntwat

Yay for you!!!
You are amazing!!!

I guess some people look at all the great things we have available to us and are happy to have them !

And others spend so much time whining and snivelling about what other people have that they never realize how much they had in the first place !

Glass half empty instead of half full kinda thing !

Oh well, time to put another log on the fire and pour another crown royal at the Trapline cabin. Come to think of it my "glass" is well above half full

Goodnight