The Myth of Energy Transfer

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by 209x50

you tell us.

I'm asking the question because I dont know? Thats why I asked a question! So let's hear it if you our anyone else know's because I dont?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

No one's really answered my question above???? What stun's \knocks deer out when they are hit in the antler's with Bullets???

Yes, your question was answered. Many times.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Yes, your question was answered. Many times.

I Must of Missed it Bud,you will have to enlighten Me?

[Rantastic]

The energy transfer to a deer antlers knock him out because the ET is so great that it rattles his brain so hard as to knock him unconsious the same way a knockout punch to a boxer does....

And we all know that boxers die from such blows to the head.... Nothing but shock and pressure to a sensitive area causes death... No broken skull, no fractured spine....
Now I'm not a doctor so i may have this wrong and if i do please correct me but the way i figure it, Pure shock damages the brain, it swells up, bleeds internally and stops sending signals to the heart and life expires.

Same thing can be done to a fish with a bat on the head. Shock and pressure kills.

If you hit that poor deers antlers with a 50BMG and somehow the bullet transfered all of its energy to this super stong deer head, im sure the ET would suffice to kill it dead. Now we know thats not very propable but just to show it can happen. Check youtube for those videos of the goofs deer hunting with the 50BMG and regular FMJ bullets... The deer get ripped almost clean in half when he gut shoots them. Its disturbing but the deer is more dead than any .270 expanding bullet would.

We must remember all the animals that get knocked unconcious from shock then wake up and run away 2 - 5 minutes later when we walk up to them to claim our kill.... Thats not from a hole through its lungs but pressure to its, vitals and nervous system.

The ones that die instantly are not from the double lung shot cuz it would take time to bleed out, its from the hydrostatic shock to its nervous system, in my mind it exists and it has a purpose but i dont aim for antlers in the hopes ill knock him out dead. we use our fallback, holes, but the shock does help.

What about this for a comparision, take a non expanding 50 cal musket ball and a 7Rem Mag expanding bullet that will expand to about half an inch. It will make the same size hole all the way through as the musket ball yet I have a feeling we all know the 7mm will put that deer down faster.

Now what explaination could u have for that if not Hydrostatic shock?

[elkhunter11]

Both the expanding and the fMJ strike with the same amount of energy, if energy kills why does the fmj do such a poor job of killing? You tell me where all that deadly energy is.

Of course the fmj strikes with the same amount of energy,but it doesn't expand and create a larger frontal are like an expanding bullet.As a result,it transmits far less energy into the animal than an expanding bullet.Using an expanding bullet dramatically increases the energy that is transferred to the animal,but much more importantly,it results in a much larger permanent wound channel.I believe that it is the increased volume of the wound channel that results in the quicker death,but that doesn't change the fact that an expanding bullet does usually transmit much more energy into the animal as it expands and creates that larger permanent wound channel.

[Rantastic]

Hah i just thought up somethign funny related.... Anyone know the actualy origins of "Easy as shootin fish in a barrel"

Just kind of came to me that maybe its easy cuz the shock of the bullet kills them all?
Because i would think it actually fairly tough to aim well enough to hit a swimming little goldfish in a barrel.

What do ya think? Or am I way off?

[altaberg]

Originally Posted by 827rotax

OK, I by no way want to stand on the tracks of this thread. But I must admit it is hard not to post so here I am. Great video Walking Buffalo. many other great points of view as well. My coment comes with the ballistic tank that researchers fire a round into to examine the round and match to a certain barrel on a certain firearm. If the water jug test is a key indication of shock wave why when a high powered round is shot into the ballistic tank (point blank) does it not explode? A shock wave of a huge exploision has no limits and levels everything in its path, correct? If bullets created these massive shockwaves the tank to then would explode?? No? Anyone see mythbusters when the they did the tests of shooting into a pool? Ok not as scientific as a major universitiy study but visable slow motion footage of bullet behavior. Bullets either lost energy so rapidly they would not break skin after 12"-18" of travel in the water. They also tried a high powered super fast tactical rifle that was rendered completely usless as bullets completely fragmented on impact with the water. In the high speed footage they showed there was no destructive wave killing machine. The water simply absorbed the bullets energy fast enough to take the leathal energy away. thus confirming the op's opening post. My thoughts here are that the op's artical holds a lot of merit. The video that walking buffalo post does prove that rappid expanding bullets and velocity can spread the damage, but I do not agree that this is a shock wave. It is merely a case of bug meets windshield. Great post here guys, anytime highly regarded scientist's argue a point there has to be merit for us gun toting rednecks to disagree!

the ballistic tanks are not sealed and are actually designed to take the energy. As I said in my earlier post, shooting into water is a very special case and irrelevant for shooting an animal (unless you shoot the animal into a filled bladder).

It's a lot of fun though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlWe6RBoePE

wait until they start shooting, it's cool.

Also, the shock wave of an explosion in air and what's happening in water is very different. Difference is that air/gas can easily be compressed and water/fluid has a very different compressibility.

[flint]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

No one's really answered my question above???? What stun's \knocks deer out when they are hit in the antler's with Bullets???

They won't answer your question Bud, because the truth is "energy" knocked the deer down and not the hole in the antler. The "Rat Pack" won't give in to a simple question. Their ego and pride is holding them back. Looks good on you Bud!

[flint]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...all great examples if we threw TNT, set roadside bombs or dropped neuclear bombs on deer but we don't. Your little stroll down Reductum Ad Absurdum lane has been entertaining but not overly poignant to the conversation. Lets stick to shooting small metal projectiles at high velocities at large animals and you might actually learn something today.

I've cornered you a few times Schwanky where you have changed the subject an snuck out the back door. You are an impudent rascal like the rest of you Rat Pack.

[flint]

Originally Posted by Bobby B.

For awhile, it appeared as though this thread would remain constructive and I was tempted to join the discussion. Unfortunately, once the drive to be correct surpassed some posters' intellectual capabilities, insults arose and productive dialogue ceased. Everyone's loss.

Bobby B.

I guess if your spineless just stay out of it!

[Rantastic]

Originally Posted by flint

I guess if your spineless just stay out of it!

I was liking what u were saying until now flint. This comment is just uncalled for and disrespectful.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by flint

I guess if your spineless just stay out of it!

Well with that I'm done. You are flat obnoxious.

[827rotax]

Originally Posted by altaberg

the ballistic tanks are not sealed and are actually designed to take the energy. As I said in my earlier post, shooting into water is a very special case and irrelevant for shooting an animal (unless you shoot the animal into a filled bladder).

It's a lot of fun though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlWe6RBoePE

wait until they start shooting, it's cool.

Also, the shock wave of an explosion in air and what's happening in water is very different. Difference is that air/gas can easily be compressed and water/fluid has a very different compressibility.

Mythbusters did the shooting in the barrell as well, that is why they moved into the pool. They could not make a kill shot in the barrell, myth busted. I know why the tanks do do not explode, but as some are saying here it should.
As far as the goldfish in the baggie of water, the fish will die cause he is out of water, not from shock. I am not as smart in this field as many here, but I do have thought process and can educate myself to the best of my abbility. There are many great points on both sides, as I said before if scientist's can argue and back up with facts and studies, we as hunters will most certianly be able to arugue. I think a lot of the arguement being missed here, it is the well placed ethical shot. We know that there are caliber rules for shooting game. This is because of educated people setting a standard of leathality to ethically take our game. I believe the energy of an expanded bullit is completely absorbed by the game and thus a more efficent kill shot. Shock wave is a hard sell for me. My wife is a nurse in an emergancy department, and many people have died from hard blows to the chest. It can and will stop the heart, this is not a shock wave but merely enough energy is absorbed by the heart to create a leathal rhythm. Anyone who has CPR knows to make absuloutely positive there is no heart beat before starting CPR, same reason, you can create a leathal rhythm in the heart and kill the paitent. It is not a shockwave, but a change in the rhythm of the heart.
Dennis

[Rantastic]

Very good point about the lethal rhythm by shocking the heart, ur right its not a shock wave, because the idea behind hydrostatic shock is that it causes tearing and other damage to the tissue and ur scenario does not reflect that kind of damage. And u have successfully just disproved my less lethal bean bag gun theory. Bravo.

But what about the boxer/deer that takes the blunt blow to the head? That doesn't disrupt anything as long as the spinal cord is left intact right? so energy transfer does cause the brain to swell, like a concussion that people die from all the time.

Fish will not die instantly out of water they will all live for at least 5-10 minutes flopping around before finally suffocating and dying... As a teenager i had many fish and had many escape, they dont die instantly. So the fish in a bag test is still a cool idea. Although not very scientific lol.
Gotta go find that mythbusters now though. Sounds cool that they tried it.

[Cowtown guy]

A concussion is actually not energy transfer to the brain. It is usually caused by the brain hitting the sides of the skull. There is a small amount of room inside the skull. If the brain is bounced from side to side hard enough it shuts itself off causing the knockout.

The boxers death is generally attributed to the brain being bruised while it is being bounced back and forth inside the cranial cavity. If the bruise isn't detected the brain can swell. The big issue here is that there isn't room for expansion inside the skull. This causes severe pressure and will lead to death. This is the cause for boxers and MMA fighters always seeing a doctor after the fight. If you watch, the doctor will be in the ring with the winner and the loser immediately after the final bell looking for signs of a concussion.

[827rotax]

Originally Posted by crazy_fool1

Very good point about the lethal rhythm by shocking the heart, ur right its not a shock wave, because the idea behind hydrostatic shock is that it causes tearing and other damage to the tissue and ur scenario does not reflect that kind of damage. And u have successfully just disproved my less lethal bean bag gun theory. Bravo.

But what about the boxer/deer that takes the blunt blow to the head? That doesn't disrupt anything as long as the spinal cord is left intact right? so energy transfer does cause the brain to swell, like a concussion that people die from all the time.

Fish will not die instantly out of water they will all live for at least 5-10 minutes flopping around before finally suffocating and dying... As a teenager i had many fish and had many escape, they dont die instantly. So the fish in a bag test is still a cool idea. Although not very scientific lol.
Gotta go find that mythbusters now though. Sounds cool that they tried it.

My wife is the edumacated one, but I take a lot of pride in sharing with her and learning what she knows so we may have intellegent conversation about what matters to her. I believe (again not stating facts to be bashed on) that severe blows to the head causes instant bruising, swelling and can put severe preasure on the brain stem, similar to a stroke or aneurysm. To have ones bell rung hard will cause swelling instanly and cause you to black out, the severity will determine if you wake up or not. Once preasure is placed on the brain stem time is not on your side. Strokes can be none lethal if they are diagnosed and treated in time. loss of oxygen will also cause lethal swelling in the brain.
Not a doctor nor claim to be one, but I believe some of the instant death we as hunters see could be from my last post. If a large round has enough force to crush its way through the breast plate or rib cage in proximity of the chest cavity we could be seeing the lethal rhythm on the heart. Many race car drivers have died from the very same thing and have no visable wounds. Lethal rhythm can be instant death.

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by flint

I guess if your spineless just stay out of it!

Just wondering why you see the need to turn so many good threads on their ear?

To quote a very famous Disney movie and countless parents of 2 year olds that don't think before they talk...

"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"

[switchsl]

I got myself into a hellofa argument a while back but Im going to stick my neck out here anyways...

The deer who gets shot in the antler gets knocked out due to mild head trauma aka concusion... a temporary disruption of cellular function in the brain, just like a punch in the face. Look into the causes of head trauma and it will answer all those things.
As for the hydrostatic shock theory, it falls into the same princple as I understand it. The massive release of energy into the body of an animal causes enough trauma to the head to render them unconcious, or partially so, by rapid acceleration or deceleration of the brain tissue. While they are decapacitated, they bleed to death. The thought that tissues explode due to the shockwave I believe is a myth.
A full metal jacket bullet carries the same energy as a frangible one, and often as many experienced the same killing effect, although a diferent wound.The small area of teh wound therefore leaves less damage and less oportunity for bleed out.
The only way to kill anything by trauma, is to disrupt the central nervous system, ie. the brain, or spinal cord relaying information from the brain. You punch a hole in something with a bullet, or arrow, regardless of energy the overall surface area of the wound is the determining factor. You need to cause bleeding, leading to lack of oxygen, hypothermia, and acidosis... all of which are related and compounding.
Please leave the little fish alone, put them back in the aquarium where they belong. The energy a bullet carries, and its min and max to kill efficently are related to the energy needed to allow the bullet to expand, but not completley fall apart, again, makig a large wound channel. Hope that makes sense

[827rotax]

X2 CowTown, My momma told me the same thing. A discussion is about voicing an opinion and backing it up with fact. In turn listening to the other party and relating their opinion to your fact base.

Love you mom, Rest In Peace

[BrownBear416]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

Just wondering why you see the need to turn so many good threads on their ear?

To quote a very famous Disney movie and countless parents of 2 year olds that don't think before they talk...

"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"

Flint isnt on here to make friends or add anything to any discussions.He is just a worthless troll stirring s**t on his second name because he has already been banned once.His day isnt complete untill he can belittle a fellow outdoorsman and spread his Hypercritical BS and Lies.

He will be banned soon as he is just a angry little old man who will never change and probably more then anything just needs a good old fashioned azz k..i mean lesson in manners.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by BrownBear416

Flint isnt on here to make friends or add anything to any discussions.He is just a worthless troll stirring s**t on his second name because he has already been banned once.His day isnt complete untill he can belittle a fellow outdoorsman and spread his Hypercritical BS and Lies.

He will be banned soon as he is just a angry little old man who will never change and probably more then anything just needs a good old fashioned azz k..i mean lesson in manners.

You summed it up about perfect.....he cries for attention and is the true definition of a hypocrite. When he cant have a discussion, he moves directly towards belittling comments.

Not sure why he isnt just banned again after being on his second user name....

[crawfy]

Here is some interesting Facts from studies for all to read. To me if you have both energy and holes you have dead animals.



Hydrostatic shock as a factor in selection of ammunition
Various terms are used to refer to the potential for hydrostatic shock effects: energy transfer, temporary cavitation, shock wave, hydrodynamic shock, ballistic pressure wave, etc. A number of ammunition designers and suppliers mention ideas related to hydrostatic shock in their patents and marketing literature: Charlie Kelsey (radially dynamic bullets),[51][52] David Harris,[53] Tom Burczynski (Quik-Shok, Hydra Shok),[54] Bruce McArthur,[55] Federal Cartridge (Hydra Shok),[56] American Ammunition (Quik-Shok),[57] the THV bullet,[58][59] Hornady (Super Shock Tip, SST),[60] Barnes Bullets (Triple Shock),[61] TC Arms (Shock Wave),[62] and Elite Ammunition.[63] One handgun manufacturer has a video showing exploding watermelon heads.[64]

[edit] Ammunition selection for self-defense, military, and law enforcement
In self-defense, military, and law enforcement communities, opinions vary regarding the importance of remote wounding effects in ammunition design and selection. In his book on hostage rescuers, Leroy Thompson discusses the importance of hydrostatic shock in choosing a specific design of .357 Magnum and 9x19mm Parabellum bullets.[65] In “Armed and Female,” Paxton Quigley explains that hydrostatic shock is the real source of “stopping power.”[66] Jim Carmichael, who served as shooting editor for Outdoor life magazine for 25 years, also believes that hydrostatic shock is important to “a more immediate disabling effect” and is a key difference in the performance of .38 Special and .357 Magnum hollow point bullets.[67] In “The search for an effective police handgun,” Allen Bristow describes that police departments recognize the importance of hydrostatic shock when choosing ammunition.[68] A research group at West Point suggests handgun loads with at least 500 ft-lbs of energy and 12 inches of penetration and recommends:[69]

One should not be overly impressed by the propensity for shallow penetrating loads to produce larger pressure waves. Selection criteria should first determine the required penetration depth for the given risk assessment and application, and only use pressure wave magnitude as a selection criterion for loads meeting minimum penetration requirements. Reliable expansion, penetration, feeding, and functioning are all important aspects of load testing and selection. We do not advocate abandoning long-held aspects of the load testing and selection process, but it seems prudent to consider the pressure wave magnitude along with other factors.
A number of law enforcement and military agencies have adopted the 5.7x28mm cartridge, which is reputed to cause considerable hydrostatic shock.[63][70] These agencies include the Navy SEALs,[71] and the Federal Protective Service branch of the ICE.[72][73] In contrast, some defense contractors,[who?] law enforcement analysts,[who?] and military analysts[who?] say that hydrostatic shock is an unimportant factor when selecting cartridges for a particular use[citation needed] because any incapacitating effect it may have on a target is difficult to measure and inconsistent from one individual to the next. This is in contrast to factors such as proper shot placement and massive blood loss which are almost always eventually incapacitating for nearly every individual.[74]

[edit] Ammunition selection for hunting
Hydrostatic shock is commonly considered as a factor in the selection of hunting ammunition. Peter Capstick explains that hydrostatic shock may have value for animals up to the size of whitetail deer, but the ratio of energy transfer (in ft-lbs) to animal weight (in lbs) is an important consideration for larger animals. If the animal’s weight (in lbs) exceeds the bullet’s energy transfer (in ft-lbs), penetration in an undeviating line to a vital organ is a much more important consideration than energy transfer and hydrostatic shock.[75] Jim Carmichael, in contrast, describes evidence that hydrostatic shock can affect animals as large as Cape Buffalo in the results of a carefully controlled study carried out by veterinarians in a buffalo culling operation.

Whereas virtually all of our opinions about knockdown power are based on isolated examples, the data gathered during the culling operation was taken from a number of animals. Even more important, the animals were then examined and dissected in a scientific manner by professionals. Predictably, some of the buffalo dropped where they were shot and some didn't, even though all received near-identical hits in the vital heart-lung area. When the brains of all the buffalo were removed, the researchers discovered that those that had been knocked down instantly had suffered massive rupturing of blood vessels in the brain. The brains of animals that hadn't fallen instantly showed no such damage.

– Jim Carmichael[76]


Dr. Randall Gilbert describes hydrostatic shock as an important factor in bullet performance on whitetail deer, “When it [a bullet] enters a whitetail’s body, huge accompanying shock waves send vast amounts of energy through nearby organs, sending them into arrest or shut down.”[77] Dave Ehrig expresses the view that hydrostatic shock depends on impact velocities above 1100 feet per second.[78] Sid Evans explains the performance of the Nosler Partition bullet and Federal Cartridge Company’s decision to load this bullet in terms of the large tissue cavitation and hydrostatic shock produced from the frontal diameter of the expanded bullet.[79] The North American Hunting Club also suggests big game cartridges that create enough hydrostatic shock to quickly bring animals down.[80]

[Rantastic]

hey 827 rotax...

I found part of the mythbusters episode on youtube here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd-MpXCMcIs

If you listen to the first 20 seconds they clearly state that they did not even need to aim and all fish would float belly up to the top... But this next link explains it better.

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode91

This link shows the written results for the episode. Read paragraph 2 on that page where it says the shockwave from a single 9mm bullet was enough to trip their highest Gforce stickers proving that the fish would die from the pressure... no problem, myth confirmed. Guess we dont need to test the fish in a baggie experiment after all.

Not very scientific maybe but doesn't this prove there is something to this hydrostatic shock?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by clakjp

Yes I agree. But energy transfer does nothing according to Rich and Chuck. That is why I would love to here the other answer that they have.

You seem to be putting words in my mouth.

[827rotax]

Nice work crazy fool!! I wish I had more time today. I would have looked for those myself. Some might argue that Mythbusters is not a university caliber test, but I think they explore and control a lot of the variables to get the results they do. What a cool job!. Peace to all in this thread, My thoughts are practice shooting as much as you can, use the best equipment you can,and know that equipment. And always-ALWAYS take the ethical shot. More so, DO NOT take the so so shot.
Dennis

[Walleyes]

Good info crawfy..

Another undeniable factor of energy transfer or shock wave is the lungs of some shot animals. Why is it that at times we will see the shot lungs of some animals with nothing more than a hole in them or a partial tear these animals will usualy put on a few yards when shot. And at other times I have seen it where the lungs have been turned to mush,, you know the ones the lungs are literally destroyed these anaimals are usualy the ones that hit the dirt where they are hit.. I am talking about similar shots on similar animals. The only way to explain it is the shock wave that must travel through the chest cavity. Now we all know this doesn't happen all the time but I have seen it enough to know that an awful amount of energy was exposed to these parts. A guy doesn't need a degree to figure that out. What we are seeing is the shot milk jug efect.

[JET1]

Started off as a great thread but how did the topic change from energy kills to shock waves making flesh explode and such. someone stated earlier that its a foolish arguement obviously both contribute to an effective kill. good point by whoever brought up the bean bag thing more proof that energy can kill or at the very least contribute

[Arn?Narn.]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

No one's really answered my question above???? What stun's \knocks deer out when they are hit in the antler's with Bullets???

A neck twist. brain shake, CNS ... same as a boxer on the chin.

[clakjp]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

OK here's what I don't get. Someone here states his beliefs on a subject. Someone else disagrees and asks for proof. That's what this board is all about. Personally I would try to find my own proof and post that but whatever. Person #1 provides the proof that person #2 asks for. A couple of times actually. Now person #2 doesn't like that proof so is asking for more or different proof. To top it all off somebody else throws in comments that are so not even remotely close to comparable it is laughable at best. This has been a good read. Lets keep it going.

Also guys, its OK to be informed and change an opinion or modify that opinion if there is evidence to support it. If someone can provide enough evidence, I'll be man enough to say I was wrong.

Clakjp. So does an FMJ not have any energy? One would assume that a pill of same diameter (say .308), weight (say 165) and speed (say 2850 fps) would have the same energy when it strikes the animal regardless of the bullet construction. If this hydrostatic wave theory is true, the FMJ should start a wave and destroy as much as the standard hunting bullet. Since it doesn't, then we are back to the idea of a temporary wound cavity bouncing back and the opening bullet simply destroying more tissues as it blows on thru. At least that's the way I see it.

I shoot a .257 Roberts and a 7MM Rem mag. The 7 is pushing 140 grain pills at 3200 fps. The 1/4 bore is pushing 100 grain pills at 3000ish fps. The 7 obviously has way more energy and in theory a bigger shock wave. Why is it that almost all of the deer I shoot with the bigger gun go farther than the little gun? Almost every deer shot with that .257 Roberts dies instantly. Bang flop! The deer shot with the 7 never go far, usually less than 40 yards, but they are rarely bang flops.

There's one to ponder for you. Yes shot placement is the same for me. I always aim for the lung area.

Cowtown Yes your 7 has way more energy but if you have a fmj all of the energy ib=n that bullet punch a small perfect hole in and out with no energy TRANSFER.As for the expanding bullet (lead style) expaned and transfer a lot of energy from the bullet to the animal also causing a great wound cavity.

[clakjp]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Do you have your answer yet as to why energy transfer (ET) is not the cause of death? If not, how about you tell us how ET kills.

As you are an experienced and very successful rifle and archery hunter, I look forward to your explanation.

Dale I feel that (ET) is the main cause for animals organs to shut down.Not just causing a big hole and bleeding.Just like Tyler said about the buck that got shot in the horn.All the (ET) from the bullet to the brain killing that animal.I dont know all but I dont by in to what others state on here.There is lots of reading that stated both are rite and both are wrong.So Dale what is your thought???