Sheep Question

[Keeleclimber]

Originally Posted by bdub

Explain the tanking lamb/ewe ratio yet stable population numbers. Explain drop in ram harvest that seems to follow the same drop in post season trophy Rams.

To Easy;
1) Documented increase in wolf and cougar numbers. (AESRD 2012 and cougar predation- Borbeau- Lemieux et al. 2011)

2) Wildfire Suppression. Recently in only 2 days 13 wildfires in the Clearwater Area were extinguished. It'd be interesting to know the total number of wildfires extinguished in that sheep range for this year, likely staggering. Thats years and years of habitat degradation. What do you expect to happen to all the wildlife when their habitat is so critically manipulated for years and years??

You think hunters are responsible for the lamb/ewe ratio tanking??

We're suppose to rely on this data in the charts from aerial surveys completed in one day every 2-4 years?? The accuracy of these aerial surveys is 50% at best. Lets not forget who's inside the survey choppers dreaming up these survey results, are they pro hunting? Have they held sheep tags? Have they killed rams of their own? The answer is no, no, no.

Hunter restrictions are a complete distraction to progress for the Bighorn Sheep.

Focus on restoring the habitat by letting wildfires in the sheep range burn.

Focus on balancing the predator/prey ratio. Cause lets be honest, if hunters aren't killing rams 10 WMUs annually, where are the sheep?

[Keeleclimber]

Originally Posted by Diamondhitch

I have trended a bunch of different variables

Let's see your trends then!

Hahaha, Don't tell me to look a little harder, you didn't even know where to find the data.

[Justahunter]

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

I still can't believe how much debating is going on regarding managing hunters. Hunters are not even part of the equation!
We only impact 1% of the population.
There's 11 out of 32 sheep WMUs where ZERO rams are killed by hunters, will hunting regulations benefit those sheep populations???

HABITAT ENHANCEMENT
PREDATOR MANAGEMENT
DATA COLLECTION/ANALYSIS

These three items everyone can agree with and move forward. The hunting regulation debate will last forever and never accomplish anything, only the sheep will suffer.

Focusing on anything else discredits your proficiency on the subject.

Dead on the money here. No predator management when the resource plan specifically calls for it is just dumb.
Very little prescribed fire
Nearly all wildfires extinguished at what cost financially and in lot habitat
And reg changes based on a 2 day fly over that would be lucky to be even 50% accurate and just may be taken at a poor time etc.
I say we need to get the count far more accurate then start debating the rest

[bdub]

From the book Return of Royalty by Geist and Toweill.

Here is what i believe could happen with our bighorn herd if we change our management practice of killing to many sub mature rams. I dont think it is entirely transferable but I believe there is enough in common that some form of management where we focus the harvest on an older segment will reap huge benifits in the long run.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

To Easy;
1) Documented increase in wolf and cougar numbers. (AESRD 2012 and cougar predation- Borbeau- Lemieux et al. 2011)

2) Wildfire Suppression. Recently in only 2 days 13 wildfires in the Clearwater Area were extinguished. It'd be interesting to know the total number of wildfires extinguished in that sheep range for this year, likely staggering. Thats years and years of habitat degradation. What do you expect to happen to all the wildlife when their habitat is so critically manipulated for years and years??

You think hunters are responsible for the lamb/ewe ratio tanking??

We're suppose to rely on this data in the charts from aerial surveys completed in one day every 2-4 years?? The accuracy of these aerial surveys is 50% at best. Lets not forget who's inside the survey choppers dreaming up these survey results, are they pro hunting? Have they held sheep tags? Have they killed rams of their own? The answer is no, no, no.

Hunter restrictions are a complete distraction to progress for the Bighorn Sheep.

Focus on restoring the habitat by letting wildfires in the sheep range burn.

Focus on balancing the predator/prey ratio. Cause lets be honest, if hunters aren't killing rams 10 WMUs annually, where are the sheep?

I'm not saying habitat is not an issue. I've voiced my support for letting fire burn in the backcountry, not only on here but to the idjuts in the govt. I'm also not saying that predators and some culling of them wouldn't be beneficial but it doesn't explain the stable population. If we were over run with Wolves and Cougars killing all the sheep than why hasn't the overall population tanked. As for the data collected, unless you want to spend millions and put a tag on every sheep in the country. The data is showing some long term trends, you can dismiss it all you want but it is showing something and data collection on sheep will never be 100 % perfect. We have to use what we can. You are not going to see every sheep in a range flying around. Sightability is never perfect. There is a lot of data out there, it's not garbage. We can spend the next ten years doing the same thing and then we are yet another ten years behind.

There is something more going on here that relates to our overharvest of Rams. Sheep didn't evolve over thousands of years to have one important segment of the population missing. Something happens when you have small immature Rams doing 99% of the breeding and it ain't good.

Lots of issues facing the sheep herd, habitat is big, predators in certain spots, disease, and ram overharvest. It's not a simple problem or solution.

[Diamondhitch]

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

Let's see your trends then!

Hahaha, Don't tell me to look a little harder, you didn't even know where to find the data.

I appreciate the link.

Too much info to process in one afternoon but I will definitely let you know what I see, once I have a complete set of data. As for 2014, overall provincial #s are down 31.6% from a 15 yr average (after removing pick ups, estate sales, etc from the register data) making it the worst season in at least 15 years. I haven't completed harvest analysis by SMA yet but the northern WMUs that I have sampled were hit the hardest, as much as a 74% decline from the 15 yr ave. Even 438 was down 50% and those mine rams have it easy.

[Diamondhitch]

Originally Posted by bdub

From the book Return of Royalty by Geist and Toweill.

Here is what i believe could happen with our bighorn herd if we change our management practice of killing to many sub mature rams. I dont think it is entirely transferable but I believe there is enough in common that some form of management where we focus the harvest on an older segment will reap huge benifits in the long run.

There is no doubt more mature rams would be a benefit. We would need to develop our own system of determining legal minimums to ensure this though since thinhorn and bighorn horn characteristics are so very different. Unfortunately horn growth is so varied that using them as a benchmark to select older rams is tricky and not very precise.

Realistically replacing the 4/5 curl rule with a double broomed rule regardless of amount of curl would likely target slightly older rams all on its own, but not significantly, nor anywhere near as much as we are discussing here. It would sure make it easier to judge legal in the field though.

[Keeleclimber]

Originally Posted by bdub

Lots of issues facing the sheep herd, habitat is big, predators in certain spots, disease, and ram overharvest. It's not a simple problem or solution.

Habitat degradation via ~75 years of fire suppression is a Massive issue.

Predators; MASSIVE issue. Where have all the mountain elk gone?? Was that the hunters fault too? What about the Caribou? Hunters fault again?

If you can't see the real problem in the west country your blind.

Its very simple to realize what the true issues are and it sure isn't us sheep hunters killing 150 rams a year out of ~11000. Yes I said ~11000 because the sheep don't know where the invisible park lines are...

More regulations on the sheep hunters will have zero affect to the current situation in our west country.

Focus on the habitat and the predators.

[Keeleclimber]

Originally Posted by Diamondhitch

the worst season in at least 15 years.

You think last year was bad, Just wait....

Originally Posted by Diamondhitch

Even 438 was down 50% and those mine rams have it easy.

Have you even been to Cadomin lately?

I spent 10-15 days there in the field since Christmas. You have a better chance at seeing a wolf, then you do a legal ram. Go see for yourself, its a blood bath.

Dont believe me, ask Joey Olivieri the photographer.

[Diamondhitch]

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

You think last year was bad, Just wait....




Have you even been to Cadomin lately?

I spent 10-15 days there in the field since Christmas. You have a better chance at seeing a wolf, then you do a legal ram. Go see for yourself, its a blood bath.

Dont believe me, ask Joey Olivieri the photographer.

There was a ton of pick ups registered from there last summer. Its been a couple years since I have been down there, shame if they have died off that badly, sounds more like disease than predation though? 2013 was a banner year for rams taken from the mine.

I can remember years ago sitting watching the desolate barren legal mountainside and glancing back at 400 rams on the mine in little groups everywhere I looked, saw more rams that day than I had in my entire life combined.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

Habitat degradation via ~75 years of fire suppression is a Massive issue.

Predators; MASSIVE issue. Where have all the mountain elk gone?? Was that the hunters fault too? What about the Caribou? Hunters fault again?

If you can't see the real problem in the west country your blind.

Its very simple to realize what the true issues are and it sure isn't us sheep hunters killing 150 rams a year out of ~11000. Yes I said ~11000 because the sheep don't know where the invisible park lines are...

More regulations on the sheep hunters will have zero affect to the current situation in our west country.

Focus on the habitat and the predators.

Like i said KC, there are several issues affecting the sheep herd but to say that our hunting has no affect is simply false. How else can you explain what is happening in sma 1. Do the predators stop at the boundary. Is the habitat any better in sma 1.

Where are the sheep? Or rams? Why are we seeing so few trophy rams post season and fewer again the next fall? There dead is why. A good number of the rams that did much of the breeding don't make it through the winter. Almost all the 4/5 + rams are killed prior to the rut. Now you have a bunch of young rams doing all the breeding. No older rams around to police the rut and calm things down. Instead its a frenzy of activity for the rams and ewes. Young rams behave like young men with lots of ladies around wanting attention. Nobodies getting any rest so to speak. Then the rut winds down and those sheep have wasted a pile of energy needlessly, are now going into the roughest time of all. The ewes and rams have a harder time getting by. Now we also have some younger rams that don't leave the ewes all winter when they should be. We have no older rams to lead them to ram winter range. Another factor that is poor for the ewe/lamb segment as the ewes have young rams competing for limited grub. Its makes for poor lamb crops both in numbers and health. It also makes for poorer growth in rams right from birth. If a ram has a mother that comes thru the winter in poorer shape than she should be it stands to reason the lamb will not be as vigorous as well. The rams become active in the rut at a younger age than normal which slows growth and leads to higher mortality in that age class.

There is no doubt habitat is vital. Everyone is screaming about that. Putting out those fires in the mountains is bad for all game. The habitat that is Cadomin is artificial but gives us a glimpse of what is possible due to habitat that favours ungulates, not trees and bush. (The mine does create other issues due to selenium for the sheep.) The wolves have caught on to the abundance of elk and sheep. Those sheep living on the mine are pretty easy to pick off living on the flat ground with no escape cover. That the wolf numbers around Cadomin has gone way up is nothing surprising there. Theres lots of wolves eating good around that place. I havent been out there this spring yet, been hiking elsewhere but i think I will go have a look at the decimation. Its in my backyard pretty much so ill go have a peak and see for myself. Maybe they are pushing some of he remaining sheep off the flatland of the mine and back into traditional sheep habitat. Or maybe it is disease going through that herd. Not exactly a normal situation to have that many sheep crowded into one spot. Have you talked to any bios or co's about Cadomin?

As for your 11000 number if thats your logic than why don't we include the BC sheep, Montana sheep and so on in our numbers. Does that make any sense?

[Keeleclimber]

Originally Posted by bdub

How else can you explain what is happening in sma 1.

Whats happening in SMA 1? Weak Population (As per Table 3 New Sheep Plan) and Terrible hunting success (As per the harvest data).

Originally Posted by bdub

Where are the sheep? Or rams? Why are we seeing so few trophy rams post season and fewer again the next fall? There dead is why. A good number of the rams that did much of the breeding don't make it through the winter.

Your slowly catching on... Good question, where are all the sheep? Did hunters kill them all??

Originally Posted by bdub

for your 11000 number if thats your logic than why don't we include the BC sheep, Montana sheep and so on in our numbers. Does that make any sense?

I could, and that would decrease hunter harvest percentage even more to below 1%, making it even harder to blame the sheep hunter for the harvest declines.

[Diamondhitch]

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

Whats happening in SMA 1? Weak Population (As per Table 3 New Sheep Plan) and Terrible hunting success (As per the harvest data).

I still haven't completed my analysis so Im not posting data just yet but SMA1 15 yr average harvest is 6 rams, in 2014 4 were harvested. The average age of rams killed in SMA1 in 2014 was 8.8 yrs, the highest average age of any zone over the last 15 years.

Other than 2014 being down across the province, the only real anamaly I can see is the number and age of rams killed toward the end of the el nino' decade.

The Elk population dropped the same time as the Deer did starting with the hard winter of 2006-7 and continued over the next 2 successive hard winters. Sheep appear to have fared better, dropping off several years later (presumably when the lost lamb crops would have started to reach 4+ yrs old and become legal.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Diamondhitch

I still haven't completed my analysis so Im not posting data just yet but SMA1 15 yr average harvest is 6 rams, in 2014 4 were harvested. The average age of rams killed in SMA1 in 2014 was 8.8 yrs, the highest average age of any zone over the last 15 years.

Other than 2014 being down across the province, the only real anamaly I can see is the number and age of rams killed toward the end of the el nino' decade.

The Elk population dropped the same time as the Deer did starting with the hard winter of 2006-7 and continued over the next 2 successive hard winters. Sheep appear to have fared better, dropping off several years later (presumably when the lost lamb crops would have started to reach 4+ yrs old and become legal.

The period of highest harvest of Rams is that first bit of the season. Do you recall the weather in early September last year... Made the papers.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/calg...sued-1.2754860

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

Whats happening in SMA 1? Weak Population (As per Table 3 New Sheep Plan) and Terrible hunting success (As per the harvest data).


Your slowly catching on... Good question, where are all the sheep? Did hunters kill them all??



I could, and that would decrease hunter harvest percentage even more to below 1%, making it even harder to blame the sheep hunter for the harvest declines.

Ya ok.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by bdub

The period of highest harvest of Rams is that first bit of the season. Do you recall the weather in early September last year... Made the papers.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/calg...sued-1.2754860

The first of the season was foggy and wet. 1 Ram was killed opening day and one was killed second day, and the others were killed in October. Then there was the short Ram shot at the first of the season, but the numbers don't show for all the short Rams that are shot.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

The first of the season was foggy and wet. 1 Ram was killed opening day and one was killed second day, and the others were killed in October. Then there was the short Ram shot at the first of the season, but the numbers don't show for all the short Rams that are shot.

Appreciate the info, thanks. It would be nice to know how many short Rams are taken each year and left on the hill and/or brought in.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

Habitat degradation via ~75 years of fire suppression is a Massive issue.

Predators; MASSIVE issue. Where have all the mountain elk gone?? Was that the hunters fault too? What about the Caribou? Hunters fault again?

If you can't see the real problem in the west country your blind.

Its very simple to realize what the true issues are and it sure isn't us sheep hunters killing 150 rams a year out of ~11000. Yes I said ~11000 because the sheep don't know where the invisible park lines are...

More regulations on the sheep hunters will have zero affect to the current situation in our west country.

Focus on the habitat and the predators.

You truly are blind. You cant see beyond what you think the issues are. And obviously everyone who has an opinion is wrong if they aren't in 100% agreement with you.

No one is saying that wildfires shouldn't be allowed to burn or controlled fires conducted on a regular basis. Not one person has said that yet in this discussion.

No one is saying predators aren't a problem, they are. We all agree on that as well.

What some of us are saying, including some very well respected and highly regarded Biologist's, is that we are killing too many young rams. I truly believe what Valerius Geist says is true so I will post it again so you can read it and hopefully understand it.

From June 18-20, 1974 the Boone & Crockett Club, National Audubon Society and the Wildlife Management Institute held a seminal meeting on mountain sheep at the University of Montana, Missoula. The participants comprised scientists, wildlife mangers, members of conservation organizations, but also outdoor writers, including the famous Jack O’Connor. I was given the honor of presenting the Key Note address on the management of mountain sheep. I explained two crucial matters: namely, (1) how the behavior of the mountain sheep preclude their dispersal from relict population to abandoned habitat. This had to be countered by aggressive reintroductions, which was done, and which led in 25 years to an increase of about 50% of mountain sheep populations in North America (see for details Dale Toweill and Valerius Geist 1999 Return of Royalty, Boone & Crockett Club and Foundation for North American Wild Sheep. This book won the 2005 Literary Prize for technical writing, Prix Technique, of the Conseil International de la Chasse, Paris). Within two years the Foundation for North American sheep came into being largely financing and guiding this recovery. Secondly (2) I dealt with how the biology of mountain sheep dictated a totally different management compared to that applied to the ever popular white-tailed deer. It focused on how to hunt trophy rams without hurting the population (based on ancient European understanding). This also was effective, as it was now a science-based approach to mountain sheep management. Hunting old, large-horned males after that had done most of their breeding was the goal. Let me explain: rams grow horns massively early in life, and less and less after about seven years of age. However, some horn growth occurs throughout life. The peak of rutting activity resides with six years old rams carrying ¾ curled horns. They become full curls at 9-10 years of life, although there is variation. Many rams, especially the most vigorous, those with the best horn growth, do not survive the fatal stresses and strains of reproduction and die before 9 years of age. Roughly 50% of the rams survive to that age. That is, natural selection for large horns is limited by the early death of rams with vigorous horn growth. Taking a small fraction of the remaining full curled rams would thus do least damage (breeding is not the only thing full curls can still do, they also are key to leading young rams to distant habitat patches, maintaining the populations tradition of range utilization. They also “police” rutting, subduing excessive activity by young rams and thus allowing them to enter winter in better body shape, increasing their growth next year, and reducing their mortality. Most breeding is done by vigorous, young full curls. Old full curls drop off in breeding activity. Some of the very largest-horned rams I observed during the rut were bystanders! Matters are complex! ).

Changing to a full curl regulation isn't managing hunters, it is better herd management. Do you understand the difference? In the end we will be killing bigger and better rams and managing the herd better at the same time.

So I ask you, why cant we do all these things and in the end do what is best for our sheep? After all, that is what we should be focusing on, correct? Burns, predator management and full curl regulation... IMO, those three things will be what is best for our sheep and still allow us to be sitting on a mountain side every year enjoying what we love so much about sheep hunting.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

You truly are blind. You cant see beyond what you think the issues are. And obviously everyone who has an opinion is wrong if they aren't in 100% agreement with you.

No one is saying that wildfires shouldn't be allowed to burn or controlled fires conducted on a regular basis. Not one person has said that yet in this discussion.

No one is saying predators aren't a problem, they are. We all agree on that as well.

What some of us are saying, including some very well respected and highly regarded Biologist's, is that we are killing too many young rams. I truly believe what Valerius Geist says is true so I will post it again so you can read it and hopefully understand it.



Changing to a full curl regulation isn't managing hunters, it is better herd management. Do you understand the difference? In the end we will be killing bigger and better rams and managing the herd better at the same time.

So I ask you, why cant we do all these things and in the end do what is best for our sheep? After all, that is what we should be focusing on, correct? Burns, predator management and full curl regulation... IMO, those three things will be what is best for our sheep and still allow us to be sitting on a mountain side every year enjoying what we love so much about sheep hunting.

So what your saying is that everybody else is wrong and that your right. So what has happened in the Sheep River area where Geist has done his research, it went from an over abundance of Rams to very few. Cadomin is starting to see this happening as well. And as for bio's theories you could have 10 different people read theories and have 10 different views. Putting it to full curl isn't going to make the herds larger in numbers or any healthier then what they are. Controlling the hunter is easier than looking at the bigger picture. All I'm saying is there are three sides to every story, it may be that someone has a hidden agenda as well.

[Diamondhitch]

Originally Posted by bdub

The period of highest harvest of Rams is that first bit of the season. Do you recall the weather in early September last year... Made the papers.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/calg...sued-1.2754860

Im not making excuses for anything. 1 year hardly constitutes a trend no matter the cause. There have been anomalous high and low single year spikes in most SMAs, preceded and followed by years of normal productivity.
I merely wanted to address the notion that SMA1 is somehow not producing sheep, according to harvest data, it is.

I have been trending several things and 1 is harvest by month and week . As predicted opening day has the highest harvest, Aug as a whole accounts for about 1/3 of rams of which 80% are killed opening day most years, Sept another 1/3 and Oct the last 1/3. I was not expecting that at all. Of course each SMA has a little different split but it is close and the ones that vary tend to harvest more in Sept and less in Oct, Aug remains near 1/3.

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

I still can't believe how much debating is going on regarding managing hunters. Hunters are not even part of the equation!
We only impact 1% of the population.
There's 11 out of 32 sheep WMUs where ZERO rams are killed by hunters, will hunting regulations benefit those sheep populations???

HABITAT ENHANCEMENT
PREDATOR MANAGEMENT
DATA COLLECTION/ANALYSIS

These three items everyone can agree with and move forward. The hunting regulation debate will last forever and never accomplish anything, only the sheep will suffer.

Focusing on anything else discredits your proficiency on the subject.

Agreed, I also think the WSF should also stop financing these gov projects and put the $$ into their own reliable science and year round studies so they can make recommendations to SRD that make sense vs waiting for SRD to arbitrarily come up with new regs and us trying to fight it after the fact.

"HABITAT ENHANCEMENT
PREDATOR MANAGEMENT
DATA COLLECTION/ANALYSIS "

will do more than any short sighted hunter restrictions ever will.

[crazy_davey]

So recently I emailed Dr. Valerius Geist to ask him his current opinion on the subject. He stated to me that he recently sent an email to WSFA and in his words he called it a very blunt response. He sent it to me and I asked him if I had his permission to post it here.

Here was his response:

Dear Mr. ******, By all means do. Sincerely, Val Geist

So here it is exactly as he sent it to me, name omitted:

To ***** ***********

Dear *****,

Sorry, I am behind on all mail. As to the Alberta problems with bighorns: I am in the not-so-happy position of saying: I TOLD YOU SO!
Managing for ¾ curls is very bad, and it defies science. Yes, you read me right: it's unscientific! It defies what your managing biologists should know about bighorn sheep biology, but obviously do not. Maybe they do not even care. And what I am say in is nothing new. I wrote it down in clinical detail and it was published over 40 years ago, but your mangers do not read, so you and your colleagues will have to do it for them. Forget all the trendy questions that are being raised. The case is of brutal simplicity and hinges on some basic facts about bighorn sheep biology.
Here is a bit of history: over 40 years ago, bighorns contientally were in trouble. The Boone & Crockett Club called a meeting of interested parties in Missoula, and yours truly was given the honor of making a key note address on the management of mountain sheep. I did that in clinical detail, and it was published – but largely in vain because so many biologists simply do not read. I re-read it and I would not change a word! So, my problem is how to get it into your hands. And I suggest you and several of your colleagues read it, and discuss it so that you are prepared. (See pp. 77-97 in James B. Trefethen, Editor, The Wild Sheep in Modern North America. Boone & Crockett Club. V. Geist, On the management of mountain sheep: Theoretical considerations).
The gist of it all is that if you kill off your old rams, and with a ¾ curl rule you kill off ALL the old and the most active breeding rams as well, leaving sub-2/4 curl youngsters. These take over the rut. However, because there are nor older rams to thwart the enhanced activity of the youngsters, they go overboard chasing ewes, fighting and utterly exhausting themselves. LARGE RAMS PREVENT THAT. When the – totally - exhausted youngsters enter the hard winter ahead, they suffer exhaustion- mortality. THEIR MORTALITY GOES UP! You have set in motion a ram-killing machinery, depleting rams. The result is fewer rams, poor body growth and poor horn growth. In short, with a 3.4 curl regulation hunters kill FEWER rams than with a full curl regulation – besides damaging rams. If that is a smart way of managing sheep, you better define the meaning of smart.
And I will make you a bet: your managing biologists do not even know about the above. Try them! The one who does know, who actually studied what the full curl rule did is Wayne Heimer from Alaska. And it works like a charm. You retain reasonably natural populations, and horn size does not decrease. Invite him to speak!
So, in addition to shrinking horn-size due to poorer body growth, you also have the negative selection effect of vigorous rams being quickly eliminated by hunters as soon as they turn legal. Nothing controversial here either – at least not from the perspective of wild sheep biology or science. Nothing new to history either, because the effect of reduced trophy size due to hunter selection was experienced – and remidiated! - in Europe over and over again. You read me right: REMIDIATED. This decade old mismanagement in Alberta can be REVERSED. However, it will take time and there is not guarantee that ignorance will not triumph once again.
When I was active in Alberta my views on management were not heeded, so I have no illusions that they will be in the future, and I predict you will see wasted a lot of time on irrelevant questions. Poor sheep!
What I can do for you is first of all get into your hands – somehow – a copy of that summary paper on sheep management. Read it, please, preferably with several buddies. Secondly, you can always e-mail me or call on the phone. It's difficult for me to get away as somebody needs to look after this place in my absence. Please say a warm hello to my old friend and comrade in arms, Bill Wishart.
Before I sign off, I would like to make yo aware of what science does when applied. Said conference in Missoula tried to answer, in part, why sheep failed to spread to available habitat. The short answer is that young sheep do not explore a place to live as do deer or moose, but rely closely on a tradition of using specific habitat patches as passed on by the the female to her daughter, or full curled rams to younger rams. There is no option but to place sheep yourself on the mountains, which was done, increasing by 2000 the sheep population by nearly 50%. It could have been better had one introduced them smartly, as – independently – Tom Bergerud did with 19 populations of Newfoundland caribou, however, I will not quibble. This policy of course flooded the Boone & Crockett club with record heads, for obvious reasons.
The only other time when your's truly had a say was via a wonderful graduate student I had called Mrs. Beth MacCallum. She is the genius behind creating custom mountain sheep habitat from a strip mine near Hinton. We had a chance to put into practice our knowledge about mountain sheep. The weight of females doubled with in 15 years. It generated the largest bighorn rams in North America seen since the end of the Pleistocene. When you see somebody grinning over a huge Alberta record ram, remember where it came from. Did your Alberta mangers appreciate it? Did they? We created a virile oasis of life there. Are any more mines being rehabilitated in to superior wildlife let alone superior bighorn habitat? And if not, why not?
I mention the above case because if you act on knowledge, real knowledge, the knowledge we justly call science, the knowledge you get from detailed, ongoing field observations, as well as a contrast to history, well you get results. And the ¾ curl rule is based on ignorance!
Sincerely, Val Geist

I would have to wonder why this was not posted on the WSFA website for all to read.

[bdub]

Thanks so much for posting that up Dave. I have a pretty good idea why it wasn't posted on the wsfab website. I will ask Reg himself when he is back from holidays for the reason or if they plan on posting it up in the future.

Nice to hear what this mans thoughts are in his own words on the current management of sheep in the province. Nice to hear I wasnt misinterpreting his research.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

So recently I emailed Dr. Valerius Geist to ask him his current opinion on the subject. He stated to me that he recently sent an email to WSFA and in his words he called it a very blunt response. He sent it to me and I asked him if I had his permission to post it here.

Here was his response:



So here it is exactly as he sent it to me, name omitted:



I would have to wonder why this was not posted on the WSFA website for all to read.

I would assume that it goes against their ideologies on the subject.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by bdub

Thanks so much for posting that up Dave. I have a pretty good idea why it wasn't posted on the wsfab website.

Maybe it will be discussed at tonight's WSFA board meeting...

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

Agreed, I also think the WSF should also stop financing these gov projects and put the $$ into their own reliable science and year round studies so they can make recommendations to SRD that make sense vs waiting for SRD to arbitrarily come up with new regs and us trying to fight it after the fact.

"HABITAT ENHANCEMENT
PREDATOR MANAGEMENT
DATA COLLECTION/ANALYSIS "

will do more than any short sighted hunter restrictions ever will.

I think the WSFA should stand up for their mandate "to promote and enhance increasing populations of indigenous wild sheep in Alberta through the funding of programs that support responsible wildlife management, conservation education, youth involvement and the preservation of our hunting heritages". It should not be the voice of people who don't have the best interest of the sheep herd at heart and instead use there pull in the WSFAB to influence the management of or sheep herds for there own alterior motives. There is a few folks on this forum and thread who fit this bill.

[SLH]

It is nice to get the info out.

Can't imagine why WS wouldn't want to get this right before going off and making recommendations on only anecdote and wishful thinking.

Thanks Davey

[pottymouth]

Full curl is not a solution...but a step in the direction between today and full draw....and perhaps no sheep hunting!

It all depends how far you can see and read between the lines!

[SLH]

Originally Posted by bdub

I think the WSFA should stand up for their mandate "to promote and enhance increasing populations of indigenous wild sheep in Alberta through the funding of programs that support responsible wildlife management, conservation education, youth involvement and the preservation of our hunting heritages". It should not be the voice of people who don't have the best interest of the sheep herd at heart and instead use there pull in the WSFAB to influence the management of or sheep herds for there own alterior motives. There is a few folks on this forum and thread who fit this bill.

Amen to that!

[SLH]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Full curl is not a solution...but a step in the direction between today and full draw....and perhaps no sheep hunting!

It all depends how far you can see and read between the lines!

What do you see and read between the lines.

Is it all BS or does it stand the test of science.