Government Workers Wage Rollback

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by madshawn

I kinda figured it would go down as a lead balloon, and like I mentioned I am not pro PST at all. In fact I don't have nearly enough information about the Alberta gov't to even have an opinion.

I was more or less curious if it is something that can even be considered. Or is it political suicide for any Alberta gov't to even suggest such a thing?

May be political suicide but depends how they spin it. A consumption tax that everyone pays that comes to AB may not be the worst thing. I would rather that than increasing income tax.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by bsmitty27

Yes, to a point, but when times are good should public sector jobs get a raise? I would say that 95% of the people I work with left private sector jobs and took a huge financial hit, some over 1/2 of salary to have a more stable job. Some people lead back to private sector for the money. No one is in my specific job to get rich. If our pension disappears than there is no point working public sector.

A stable job beats no job. I have no objection to a reasonable wage for good workers when the economy is OK, but they need to be driven like private sector workers. I know how things go in a big bureaucracy where staff levels snowball so that people can get promoted to lead .... more staff. Those juicy benefits and retirement packages add up to a lot.

I'd like to see a system in the pubic sector where workers are rewarded financially for whistle-blowing on useless time-wasting clock puncher staff members. The staff member gets investigated, if they are guilty of being dead weight they're fired and the whistle-blower gets a one time payment of an amount reasonable enough to motivate them taking action, say $2500-$5K. So many government positions need not exist in the first place. I'd like to see some 3 or 5 person teams whose job it is to cull dead weight from all levels of government.

[CMichaud]

Originally Posted by madshawn

I kinda figured it would go down as a lead balloon, and like I mentioned I am not pro PST at all. In fact I don't have nearly enough information about the Alberta gov't to even have an opinion.

I was more or less curious if it is something that can even be considered. Or is it political suicide for any Alberta gov't to even suggest such a thing?

I don't think it is not a bad idea at all and I know many Albertans who agree with implementing one.

Being good conservatives however - we all have a healthy distrust that the government would just blow it like they did to the Heritage Trust fund.

To me - It makes sense to have a relatively steady income to fund operations and leave Royalties to invest in diversification and the Future aka a trust fund for an independent Alberta.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

A stable job beats no job.

I'd like to see a system in the pubic sector where workers are rewarded financially for whistle-blowing on useless time-wasting clock puncher staff members. The staff member gets investigated, if they are guilty of being dead weight they're fired and the whistle-blower gets a one time payment of an amount reasonable enough to motivate them taking action, say $2500-$5K. So many government positions need not exist in the first place. I'd like to see some 3 or 5 person teams whose job it is to cull dead weight from all levels of government.

Applications last year that took 3 months this year took 3 weeks. Amazing how things sped up when people were watching. I have heard of non-routine applications getting denied this year for no reason other than it was messing with the KPI's. Easiest way to try and make the public mad is by cutting front line staff rather than cutting the fat at the top.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by WhiteTailAB

Hey maybe now some provincial employees will feel the pain that the private guys do.

Isn't it like every 1% or 2% public sector raise equals 270,000,000 bucks that tax payers have to pick up.

Suck it up, tough times for all.

Lol.

CBC: Why Alberta's corporate tax cut might not keep investment at home

A prime example is Husky Energy, which saw a $233-million benefit from the Alberta tax cut in its second-quarter results.

That’s just before letting hundreds of people go. But yes, take it from the public workers, education, health care, infrastructure, etc and give it to Husky, et al. There went your “suck it up”. That’s just one company and that’s just the second quarter results. 1-2% cut to public sector paid almost entirely for it (that’s your number, I don’t actually know how much 1-2% of public sector is). Either way, that’s $230 mil taxpayers have to pick up. But this one is ok, right, because it bring all the jobs.

CBC: 'It's the smart thing to do': Canadian oil driller moves all its rigs to the U.S.

The best pieces of equipment seem to be the first to leave Canada.

"Those are the best drilling technology in the world," Mark Scholz, president of the Canadian Association of Oilwell Drilling Contractors, said of the newer rigs.

"Those rigs are gone. I don't anticipate they will come back."

The modern rigs can cost more than $25 million and the financial returns in Western Canada aren't high enough, he said.

There are many reasons why drillers are moving rigs to the U.S., said Scholz, including the exchange rate of the U.S. dollar, which is about 30 per cent higher than the loonie. The day rates for drilling rigs are also about 30 per cent better in the U.S.

Crews can work year-round in the southern U.S. and the regulatory environment is less burdensome, he said.

In 2014, before the oil price crash, there were about 900 drilling rigs in Western Canada. Now, there are about 550. Since only about half of those are currently active, Scholz expects more of them will be sent to the U.S.

As the best equipment leaves the country, the Canadian oilpatch could become less efficient, said Hoffarth, since "It takes longer to drill those wells now because you're doing it with a tier-two or tier-three rig."

Citadel Drilling still has a shop and equipment yard in Nisku, just south of Edmonton, although the property is largely empty.

The company may leave Alberta altogether, but at least for now, Hoffarth said he will keep its headquarters in Calgary.

"At this point, yes."

Yep.

[lmtada]

Knew this was coming. Wife worked for two years with Alberta Environment. Took big pay cut, from senior Engineer Position within major oil company. The government wouldn’t recognize her 15 years PEng, management, Prior to taking on position. Which was huge farce. Then she worked two years, was doing most of technical work. None of the government employees knew how plant operated. She would be doing there work, and they would take credit for the information. There are Alberta Environment managers whom have no one working underneath them? Managers of 1,2 employees. Complete farce. Government wants to attract “Quality Talent”, they need to pony up. Otherwise government hires “B” students. They offered her a “Management Position, she politely declined, left after two years, thank goodness. Environment is small division however, far too many managers. Government Benefits, “Entitlements” are biggest difference. You the taxpayer paying for Master degrees, PHD, gold plated health insurance, indexed pensions, start 8 weeks paid vacation, managers downtown paid parking (most employees are managers x $700.00/month) All thank to taxpayers. Some government employees come back for multiple pensions and consult to government. Many these positions could go to new hires. This is just one small Environment department. The biggest scammers are in highest positions. This is how the government creme rises to top. True..the people whom do actual work are passed on. Governments have weird carrots 🥕, opposite private sector, which is about productivity, efficiency, and Market conditions. End of rant.........

[raab]

Originally Posted by madshawn

I am not from Alberta and please don't rake me over the coals but would bringing in a Provincial Sales tax create a lot of income?

I understand when times were good that there was no need for PST but would it be terrible if they brought it in for a bit?

I am not saying I am pro PST at all but is it even part of the conversation in Alberta right now?

Sales tax is illegal in Alberta. We don’t need more taxes. We need tax cuts, more privatization, and less government jobs.

[Trochu]

"That $97 billion included more roads, schools, teachers, nurses, oil upgrading, refining, petrochemical plants, transit, efficiency upgrades, innovation and research, funding for cities, lower tuition, lower income taxes, free drug prescriptions for seniors and $25 daycare for everyone."

Thats alot of value for $4B.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

A stable job beats no job. I have no objection to a reasonable wage for good workers when the economy is OK, but they need to be driven like private sector workers. I know how things go in a big bureaucracy where staff levels snowball so that people can get promoted to lead .... more staff. Those juicy benefits and retirement packages add up to a lot.

I'd like to see a system in the pubic sector where workers are rewarded financially for whistle-blowing on useless time-wasting clock puncher staff members. The staff member gets investigated, if they are guilty of being dead weight they're fired and the whistle-blower gets a one time payment of an amount reasonable enough to motivate them taking action, say $2500-$5K. So many government positions need not exist in the first place. I'd like to see some 3 or 5 person teams whose job it is to cull dead weight from all levels of government.

Your second statement is mind boggling Caber...

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by raab

Doesn’t a teacher with 10 years experience make like 100,000 while getting Xmas break, spring break, and summer break off? You couldn’t pay me enough to be a teacher, but I think that’s pretty decent pay given the amount of time off you guys get.

My wife is an elementary teacher and she works harder than anyone I know. Yeah she gets paid a decent salary but not as much as you think, to hit that 100k mark in 10 years I think you need a masters degree or some additional specializations.

I’ve said to her many times over the last 10 years and a recently as last night, it’s not worth it. She could make a decent salary doing just about anything, she’s a smart and dedicated person but she likes working with kids. So she gets to put up with awful parents who helicopter in and then disappear, useless bloated administration and a major lack of support for kids who need it. On top of that she is constantly sick because parents won’t keep their little plague carriers at home when they should. She puts in ridiculous extra hours, is constantly buying materials out of pocket and stressing about details because there no one for her to lean on all, the other good teachers are running just as ragged.

If you offered me her job at double the salary I’d laugh in your face.

[dwedmon]

I think the utility of a PST depends on whether you think the underlying problem is a revenue problem or a spending problem.

If the problem is on the spend side, then a PST just ends up being frittered away and does nothing to address the underlying issue of excessive spending.

I personally think the problem is on the spend side and we need to get spending under control so that we don't burden the next generation of Albertans with debt. That being said, I don't think breaching agreements that have already been settled with the public sector is the place to start. It is fair to ask for rollbacks when the contract comes up for renewal, it is also fair to cut headcount to meet budget constraints until the contract comes up for renewal. It is not fair to unilaterally change an agreed upon contract.

Hopefully the cuts target management rather than the front lines.

Originally Posted by madshawn

I am not from Alberta and please don't rake me over the coals but would bringing in a Provincial Sales tax create a lot of income?

I understand when times were good that there was no need for PST but would it be terrible if they brought it in for a bit?

I am not saying I am pro PST at all but is it even part of the conversation in Alberta right now?

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

When nearly everybody is hurting financially, there should not be reprieve for gov't workers, they should feel the same financial pain that everyone else who pays their wages does.

My dying industry is suffering so everyone else should suffer too. Nice plan.
You pay for a service in most cases, you pay less, you will get less service.

[Off in the Bushes]

This nonsense of rolling back wages is just low hanging fruit. It easy to calculate the money saved. Then prove they did something. I would bet that all the money they save in the next two year was spend when the red queen was booking up the government plane so she could fight privately. All those people that needed to travel still did but few commercial. Then the cash put to renovate the penthouse.

I guess I wouldn’t be so upset with it if they could prove that money wasn’t wasted needlessly elsewhere. Unless it was the difference of being viable or not.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Your second statement is mind boggling Caber...

Mind-bogglingly sensible and awesome? I agree!


But considering you're statement is actually serious I'm going to ask you to detail exactly why you think its a poor idea to fire useless staff? My suggestion only applies to/affects the dead weight on payroll. We all know there's wayyyy too much dead weight in the public's employ. There's a reason that services are better provided for less money by private contractors, its because they don't have to deal with government unionized employees and ridiculous #'s of sick days and absurd amounts of annual holidays to the point that the private sector would consider them part-time staff.... The tail should not wag the dog. I'm fine with private sector unions because there are options available and they have to prove worth and be reasonably competitive, however I'm sick to death of gov't unions. A useful & productive employee would be A-OK under my suggestion. Presently nobody wants to rock the boat. I've seen how gov't administrations grow, some senior employee wants a promotion and convinces higher-ups that more staff are needed because more staff under them = better pay. Its already how the private sector works, except there's no reward for the whistle-blower save for them not having to pick up the slack for the deadbeat. I know some AHS stories from former co-workers who couldn't work as slowly as was suggested and they quit their well-paying and good benefit AHS jobs, those maintenance crews could easily be cut in half. I knew these fellows to be competent but they could not stand the boredom and slow pacing that came with the AHS gigs.

[robbiebobbie]

Seems to me that when it was booming my IT buddies in the oil industry and consulting made way more than I did, always chided me for not stepping out into the private sector. Then it busted and they are scared, scraping by or unemployed and had to move. My take home pay just stayed the same. I gave up alot of boom for stability and now I am begrudged for it. **** happens, life isn't fair, just outlast it.

The truth is it could be alot worse and it is in most of the world for most of the people.

[Dubious]

haven’t had a pay raise in 6 years I’m not a government employee and taxes keep going up and up and people keep asking for more and more. There going to be a breaking point for everyone and I think a lot of people have already hit that point. All the politics In this country are a mess I don’t know why everyone wants to change the world and at the same time spend more money no one has in the first place. Living overdraft to overdraft is a real thing these days.

[mac1983]

My work in the patch has been really slow for 5 years,no raises there lol, most people i worked with are in the states, australia or southeast asia.
My crop is still out in the field covered in snow, probably combine in the spring, what's left of it, baled my hay end of august start of september, what didn't get rained on was courser than straw. Other than that life is good, was nice out there scoutin big mulies today!!!

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by Flatlandliver

My dying industry is suffering so everyone else should suffer too. Nice plan.
You pay for a service in most cases, you pay less, you will get less service.

Its not so much dying in Canada as it's being murdered by enviro-nuts who have been weaponized by foreign-funded propaganda. Anywhere else on the globe the O&G industry is thriving. This fact kind of kills your premise. I am only suggesting not paying/firing the staff who have proven to barely deliver any service. Any inference that I'm suggesting laying off the good staff among them (who are many) is entirely inaccurate.


AUPE is presently asking for a 7.85 % raise that I just read on the Canadian Taxpayers Federation FB page. Current conditions considered, I'm not exactly a fan of the request.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

My wife is an elementary teacher and she works harder than anyone I know. Yeah she gets paid a decent salary but not as much as you think, to hit that 100k mark in 10 years I think you need a masters degree or some additional specializations.

I’ve said to her many times over the last 10 years and a recently as last night, it’s not worth it. She could make a decent salary doing just about anything, she’s a smart and dedicated person but she likes working with kids. So she gets to put up with awful parents who helicopter in and then disappear, useless bloated administration and a major lack of support for kids who need it. On top of that she is constantly sick because parents won’t keep their little plague carriers at home when they should. She puts in ridiculous extra hours, is constantly buying materials out of pocket and stressing about details because there no one for her to lean on all, the other good teachers are running just as ragged.

If you offered me her job at double the salary I’d laugh in your face.

Thanks Mwaiter.

These threads make my blood boil. Majority of guys who post, take the default position that everyone who draws a paycheque is a lazy slug looking to milk the system.

As many of you know, as I'm open about it, I'm a teacher. I work my ass off. According to my boss, I work harder than anyone else in my school. Put up with ridiculous levels of foolishness, and increasingly larger, and more complex classes each year.

There is too much middle management, and what I consider superfluous waste within the school system, like most institutions. But it sure as hell ain't in the classroom. I make $95k, have two degrees, but gov't will only recognize one for pay purposes, haven't had a raise in 8 years, and just had Kenney unilaterally take control of my pension. Frustratingly, there is also nothing I can do to earn extra money.

I would leave this job tomorrow if I could, but I am too far into it now. And I would never encourage a man to go into this field. You just can't earn a man's wages. I hunt with young guys half my age who took two years at NAIT and make double what I do. Discouraging as hell.

There has got to be a better way than screwing front line workers.

[bessiedog]

Hey!! Stop complaining!

Raab said we deserve it cause we’re all wasteful lazies.... he’s right! We better jus deal with it.

[Map Maker]

Originally Posted by Kim473

. Be great full that you still have a job !

All I can say is, suck it up butter cup .

Sorry that you you have to take a pay cut but that's how it works sometimes.

When i first came into the adult work force back in Ontario, every time i said anything close to a complaint, it was "Just be grateful, you got a job".

I got so sick of hearing that, so i packed up my bags and headed to Alberta in a pickup truck.

Had a job since day two here, and did whatever i wanted to do.
Wanted to build log homes, i did that.
Wanted more pay to buy a house, did that.
I wanted security for my kids, did that.

Screw anyone that says be grateful for a job.
Be proud of who you are, and make a difference everyday at your work and at home.
We all make Alberta the greatest province.

Politicians are just hot air. If they want to start pushing the people around, they got a fight.
I dont know if a pay cut is the right thing or not, that's for the negotiators to figure out.

My thoughts anyway.

[robbiebobbie]

Taxpayer Federation is as right wing as the tree huggers enviro's are leftwing. Makes for a nice balance in the world don't you think?

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Mind-bogglingly sensible and awesome? I agree!


But considering you're statement is actually serious I'm going to ask you to detail exactly why you think its a poor idea to fire useless staff? My suggestion only applies to/affects the dead weight on payroll. We all know there's wayyyy too much dead weight in the public's employ. There's a reason that services are better provided for less money by private contractors, its because they don't have to deal with government unionized employees and ridiculous #'s of sick days and absurd amounts of annual holidays to the point that the private sector would consider them part-time staff.... The tail should not wag the dog. I'm fine with private sector unions because there are options available and they have to prove worth and be reasonably competitive, however I'm sick to death of gov't unions. A useful & productive employee would be A-OK under my suggestion. Presently nobody wants to rock the boat. I've seen how gov't administrations grow, some senior employee wants a promotion and convinces higher-ups that more staff are needed because more staff under them = better pay. Its already how the private sector works, except there's no reward for the whistle-blower save for them not having to pick up the slack for the deadbeat. I know some AHS stories from former co-workers who couldn't work as slowly as was suggested and they quit their well-paying and good benefit AHS jobs, those maintenance crews could easily be cut in half. I knew these fellows to be competent but they could not stand the boredom and slow pacing that came with the AHS gigs.

Your statements are so vague it's hard to respond. Many levels do NOT have as you say WAY to much dead wood. You figure our educators and front line medical staff have WAY to much dead wood ? Creating a system where staff narks on each other is asinine Caber.

[raab]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Hey!! Stop complaining!

Raab said we deserve it cause we’re all wasteful lazies.... he’s right! We better jus deal with it.

Not even close. I said the compensation for teachers was fair. Show me a job where you can have roughly 3 months a year off, not have to work weekends/holidays, can make 100k a year, have a pension(worth roughly 30,000 a year worth of investments), and have good benefits. The fact is a teacher makes really good money for the lifestyle that comes with it. To find something with similar lifestyle in the private sector you’d have to make 160k in salary to make up for the time off and pension. There’s very few careers you’ll find that pay that well without sacrificing lifestyle by working nights/on call/weekends. That doesn’t mean its for everyone.

[elkhunter11]

Perhaps if Notley hadn't hired those thousands and thousands of civil servants after being elected, these rollbacks would not be required?

[sns2]

Originally Posted by raab

Not even close. I said the compensation for teachers was fair. Show me a job where you can have roughly 3 months a year off, not have to work weekends/holidays, can make 100k a year, have a pension(worth roughly 30,000 a year worth of investments), and have good benefits. The fact is a teacher makes really good money for the lifestyle that comes with it. To find something with similar lifestyle in the private sector you’d have to make 160k in salary to make up for the time off and pension. There’s very few careers you’ll find that pay that well without sacrificing lifestyle by working nights/on call/weekends. That doesn’t mean its for everyone.

Are you a teacher? Where did you gain your firsthand knowledge?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by raab

Show me a job where you can have roughly 3 months a year off, not have to work weekends/holidays

That’s a pretty big understatement of hours worked. Forgetting the countless hours coaching, planning, supervising and marking etc.

[CanadianBruin]

Originally Posted by sns2

Thanks Mwaiter.

These threads make my blood boil. Majority of guys who post, take the default position that everyone who draws a paycheque is a lazy slug looking to milk the system.

As many of you know, as I'm open about it, I'm a teacher. I work my ass off. According to my boss, I work harder than anyone else in my school. Put up with ridiculous levels of foolishness, and increasingly larger, and more complex classes each year.

There is too much middle management, and what I consider superfluous waste within the school system, like most institutions. But it sure as hell ain't in the classroom. I make $95k, have two degrees, but gov't will only recognize one for pay purposes, haven't had a raise in 8 years, and just had Kenney unilaterally take control of my pension. Frustratingly, there is also nothing I can do to earn extra money.

I would leave this job tomorrow if I could, but I am too far into it now. And I would never encourage a man to go into this field. You just can't earn a man's wages. I hunt with young guys half my age who took two years at NAIT and make double what I do. Discouraging as hell.

There has got to be a better way than screwing front line workers.

Completely agree with this. Thank you.

[jstubbs]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

I'd like to see a system in the pubic sector where workers are rewarded financially for whistle-blowing on useless time-wasting clock puncher staff members. The staff member gets investigated, if they are guilty of being dead weight they're fired and the whistle-blower gets a one time payment of an amount reasonable enough to motivate them taking action, say $2500-$5K. So many government positions need not exist in the first place. I'd like to see some 3 or 5 person teams whose job it is to cull dead weight from all levels of government.

Great idea

A big United States corporation (approx $70 billion valuation) in the earl 2000s actually used a real similar system to this noted. They set up a system where you could voluntarily submit a review of any of your co-workers performance, and those who received a lot of bad ratings from their peers were either forced out or fired. Those who were top performers in their reviews got promoted or bonuses.

Want to know what company that was?

Enron. You know, arguably one of the most corrupt and shameful corporations in the history of the United States.

I appreciate the thinking of how to reduce government bloat, because lord knows there is a lot of it, but that is an outright foolish idea. And the suggestion that those in the public sector should suffer because others are is worse.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by jstubbs

Great idea

A big United States corporation (approx $70 billion valuation) in the earl 2000s actually used a real similar system to this noted. They set up a system where you could voluntarily submit a review of any of your co-workers performance, and those who received a lot of bad ratings from their peers were either forced out or fired. Those who were top performers in their reviews got promoted or bonuses.

Want to know what company that was?

Enron. You know, arguably one of the most corrupt and shameful corporations in the history of the United States.

I appreciate the thinking of how to reduce government bloat, because lord knows there is a lot of it, but that is an outright foolish idea. And the suggestion that those in the public sector should suffer because others are is worse.

Can’t imagine the backstabbing and worry that would cause. I wouldn’t work for a company like that. Great way to kill teamwork and destroy trust.