Suffield Elk Hunt, Fair Chase?

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Exactly, every time one race or another is given concessions over other races, the rascism in Canada increases.

Yup, acceptance of one`s difference whether its race, color, creed, religion, treaty, sexual orientation, desire to drive make of truck, desire to shoot brand of gun, color of hair, choice of food, (just to name a few) are tough for some to accept.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Exactly, every time one race or another is given concessions over other races, the racism in Canada increases.

Allowing one race to shoot bulls on the base, is just one more way, to contribute to this racism.

Everyone wants equality...but some want to be more equal than others

LC

[elkhunter11]

Yup, acceptance of one`s difference whether its race, color, creed, religion, treaty, sexual orientation, desire to drive make of truck, desire to shoot brand of gun, color of hair, choice of food, (just to name a few) are tough for some to accept.

I have no issue accepting what color your skin, or your hair is, what religion you choose, what you choose to eat, or what brands of goods you choose to purchase, as I can dye my hair, have my skin tattooed, choose my own religion, eat what I choose, and buy the brand names that I choose to. What I can't so easily accept, is when our government legislates racism, by granting concessions to certain people, based on their race.

As to why the people that are allowed to shoot bulls on the base, might choose to search out the bulls with the largest antlers, I will leave that to everyone to figure out for themselves. I for one, don't believe that it is because those bulls provide the best eating. Shooting bulls rather than cows, certainly doesn't help to accomplish the entire concept of this hunt, which is to reduce the elk herd on the base, as much as possible.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Everyone wants equality...but some want to be more equal than others

LC

And some have been `more equal` for centuries and now only speak of it for their own convenience! LC, me and you and a few others can go on till mods lock this thread, we`ve been there before. We won`t be changing the reality on this forum, so we`ll continue to agree to disagree.

I`m grateful that I am now allowed to voice my disagreement, something which my dad and father before him was not allowed to do without losing their passes to leave the reservation from the Indian Agent. So progress has been made.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I have no issue accepting what color your skin, or your hair is, what religion you choose, what you choose to eat, or what brands of goods you choose to purchase, as I can dye my hair, have my skin tattooed, choose my own religion, eat what I choose, and buy the brand names that I choose to. What I can't so easily accept, is when our government legislates racism, by granting concessions to certain people, based on their race.

As to why the people that are allowed to shoot bulls on the base, might choose to search out the bulls with the largest antlers, I will leave that to everyone to figure out for themselves. I for one, don't believe that it is because those bulls provide the best eating.

So your only issue with me and others then is the fact that I`m an Indian.

[elkhunter11]

So your only issue with me and others then is the fact that I`m an Indian.

I have no issue with anyone, based on their race, however, based on your posts, you seem to be a person that is promoting the legislated racism in Canada, and I do have an issue with that. Hopefully B&C will see fit , not to allow submissions, where the only hunting allowed,in a given location, is based on race.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I have no issue with anyone, based on their race, however, based on your posts, you seem to be a person that is promoting the legislated racism in Canada, and I do have an issue with that. Hopefully B&C will see fit , not to allow submissions, where the only hunting allowed,in a given location, is based on race.

If you see me as a person promoting `legislated racism`(your words) in Canada BY respecting Canada`s Constitution and respecting Canada`s Supreme Court Decisions (the highest court in the country), then I`m guilty as charged!!!!!

Maybe you should take your issue up with the base. I`m thinking permission has to be sought and gained for Treaty Folks to enter. Is this a cull hunt.

[Sledhead71]

Who cares really, if the base allows legal harvesting of Bulls, so be it..

The cancer in our sport sure is corrosive to our future and we all will pay a price sooner than later...

My personal opinion of the CFB elk fiasco is that when originally planted in 97 / 98 with 230, expected management at 800 was a joke...

Here we are today with an explosion of elk, something has to be done and I suspect in the few years to follow that we will be complaining about a lot more than a few bulls being killed now.

No real solution to this man made problem other than the inevitable slaughter that is headed our way...

[brownbomber]

Originally Posted by Alberta Bigbore

In some peoples worlds yes.

^^^^^ oh baby...this!

Fire up the truck and rip down there when???

[oldgutpile]

The first nation's treaty rights guarantee them the right to take game animals as long as the sun shines and the rivers flow. I think we're stuck with the arrangement, like it or not.
On a different note, check out some of the requirements for first-nations people in the Alaska regulations to harvest as "subsistence". It actually has a requirement that all "trophy" racks be cut in half, to ensure that the game harvested is being done for consumption v.s. sold. Helps to maintain the right for harvest where needed, and yet eliminates the over-harvest of trophy animals. Looked like a real good idea to me! Want to be able to keep the trophy animals, buy a tag to slap on it. Need a meal, help yourself,but............

[H380]

Originally Posted by oldgutpile

The first nation's treaty rights guarantee them the right to take game animals as long as the sun shines and the rivers flow. I think we're stuck with the arrangement, like it or not.
On a different note, check out some of the requirements for first-nations people in the Alaska regulations to harvest as "subsistence". It actually has a requirement that all "trophy" racks be cut in half, to ensure that the game harvested is being done for consumption v.s. sold. Helps to maintain the right for harvest where needed, and yet eliminates the over-harvest of trophy animals. Looked like a real good idea to me! Want to be able to keep the trophy animals, buy a tag to slap on it. Need a meal, help yourself,but............

Good post .. no Great post ! I agree with it totally as I'm sure many others on here are . Like you say I'm also afraid that we are stuck with it . If First Nations members want to hunt year round for subsistence, I have no problem with it . But when threads like this come up and examples are given of "trophy "type animals being taken then I disagree . I've watched native hunters race around the local reserve in four wheel drive vehicles and quads , shooting animals and leaving them to often to think they are subsistence hunting . Seem to be overstepping their rights to me .

[brownbomber]

Originally Posted by H380

Good post .. no Great post ! I agree with it totally as I'm sure many others on here are . Like you say I'm also afraid that we are stuck with it . If First Nations members want to hunt year round for subsistence, I have no problem with it . But when threads like this come up and examples are given of "trophy "type animals being taken then I disagree . I've watched native hunters race around the local reserve in four wheel drive vehicles and quads , shooting animals and leaving them to often to think they are subsistence hunting . Seem to be overstepping their rights to me .

Just hanging out at the Rez watching guys in trucks and riding quads lighting up animals on a somewhat regular basis ?????? How many times?
Shenanigans

[Flatlandliver]

[QUOTE=Sledhead71;2229500]Who cares really, if the base allows legal harvesting of Bulls, so be it..

The cancer in our sport sure is corrosive to our future and we all will pay a price sooner than later...

My personal opinion of the CFB elk fiasco is that when originally planted in 97 / 98 with 230, expected management at 800 was a joke...

Here we are today with an explosion of elk, something has to be done and I suspect in the few years to follow that we will be complaining about a lot more than a few bulls being killed now.

No real solution to this man made problem other than
the inevitable slaughter that is headed our way...[/QUOTE

X2
Where is all this coming from anyway, I have not heard or seen of a First Nation hunter harvesting a bull on the base. Any FN hunter who wants to kill an elk would certainly not have any trouble finding lots of landowners surrounding the base willing to have them.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

My personal opinion of the CFB elk fiasco is that when originally planted in 97 / 98 with 230, expected management at 800 was a joke...

Here we are today with an explosion of elk, something has to be done and I suspect in the few years to follow that we will be complaining about a lot more than a few bulls being killed now.

No real solution to this man made problem other than the inevitable slaughter that is headed our way...

They should be trapping and reintroduceing these surplus animals into green zone 500 WMU,s.

[slough shark]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

They should be trapping and reintroduceing these surplus animals into green zone 500 WMU,s.

I'd love to see them return some elk back from where they came or close by anyways, it'd be awesome to have them drop 500 elk back into the country west of Sundre, Caroline and Rocky. Heck it would be cool to have them start a significant population out by cold lake/Fort mac. They could transport over a thousand animals every year wherever they wanted to boost hunter opportunity and wild populations.

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

They should be trapping and reintroduceing these surplus animals into green zone 500 WMU,s.

That's how we got into this mess in the first place.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by 12DLT

That's how we got into this mess in the first place.

How is restoring ecological integrity a mess?

Prior to European settlement elk inhabited the whole province.

What harm would come from having a healthy elk herd in say WMU 516, 518 etc?

None

[H380]

Originally Posted by brownbomber

Just hanging out at the Rez watching guys in trucks and riding quads lighting up animals on a somewhat regular basis ?????? How many times?
Shenanigans

No .. Hunting on the white side , with a licence , in season .. you know , that kinda stuff .. LOL .

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

How is restoring ecological integrity a mess?

Prior to European settlement elk inhabited the whole province.

What harm would come from having a healthy elk herd in say WMU 516, 518 etc?

None

much better plan than suffield. the no hunting deal there makes a sanctuary with no predators that has led to a population explosion. with wolves in the 500s, and hopefully eventually a legit hunt, numbers wouldn't go exponential there.

the big problem there though......do you guys have any idea what something like that costs? who is gonna pay for it?

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

much better plan than suffield. the no hunting deal there makes a sanctuary with no predators that has led to a population explosion. with wolves in the 500s, and hopefully eventually a legit hunt, numbers wouldn't go exponential there.

the big problem there though......do you guys have any idea what something like that costs? who is gonna pay for it?

People like the wild elk foundation, some volunteering and donations from resource extraction companies (logging and oilfield).

Im sure Dale Allen would have no problem putting in a weekends worth of work to help build a capture corral on base as I would have no problem volunteering my time to help build a holding (acclimatization) corral up here on the other end.

[brownbomber]

Originally Posted by H380

No .. Hunting on the white side , with a licence , in season .. you know , that kinda stuff .. LOL .

Then how did you see it? Conjecture at its best lol. Binos right?

But I can see it happening, some do abuse the right. Noting many of the links on here says it's a problem on both sides of the fence.

[elkhunter11]

People like the wild elk foundation, some volunteering and donations from resource extraction companies (logging and oilfield).

Im sure Dale Allen would have no problem putting in a weekends worth of work to help build a capture corral on base as I would have no problem volunteering my time to help build a holding (acclimatization) corral up here on the other end.

I volunteer a great deal of my time, working for our F&W club, but after seeing what happened the first time that an attempt at starting an elk herd near Fort McMurray went, I wouldn't volunteer a minute, or donate a cent, for a second attempt. As soon as one group of individuals realized that the elk were here, it was a free for all for them.

[H380]

Originally Posted by brownbomber

Then how did you see it? Conjecture at its best lol. Binos right?

But I can see it happening, some do abuse the right. Noting many of the links on here says it's a problem on both sides of the fence.

Watched it a number of times from across the river , deer chased into a chokecherry patch , truck races up and shots fired into the brush . A few deer come out and are chased to the next patch , same scenario , until no deer come out of the patch and truck goes home . Conjecture ? Don't think so . As you said , some abuse the system , we all know it happens on both sides of the fence . Just really irks me when the deer I have watched is one of the victims . If they want to eat em , have it er , but don't waste em .

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I volunteer a great deal of my time, working for our F&W club, but after seeing what happened the first time that an attempt at starting an elk herd near Fort McMurray went, I wouldn't volunteer a minute, or donate a cent, for a second attempt. As soon as one group of individuals realized that the elk were here, it was a free for all for them.

That's why those people have to be included and a deal that agrees to NO HUNTING for a agreed time frame by all.

It's been fairly successful in Saskatchewan.

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

How is restoring ecological integrity a mess?

Prior to European settlement elk inhabited the whole province.

What harm would come from having a healthy elk herd in say WMU 516, 518 etc?

None

I was speaking of Suffield.

[elkhunter11]

That's why those people have to be included and a deal that agrees to NO HUNTING for a agreed time frame by all.

Even if you could get someone representing those people to agree, they would be under no legal obligation to follow through with their commitment. As soon as the elk were released, nobody could keep some of those people from going out, and killing what they wanted.

In the years, since the first attempt, our F&W club has been asked , if we are interested in being involved in such undertakings.There was no support at all to get involved, because we are all too familiar with the behavior of the people in question, and we aren't willing to waste our time and resources, for a lost cause.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by 12DLT

I was speaking of Suffield.

And so was I.

Elk were native to the Suffield area prior to white settlement.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Even if you could get someone representing those people to agree, they would be under no legal obligation to follow through with their commitment. As soon as the elk were released, nobody could keep some of those people from going out, and killing what they wanted.

In the years, since the first attempt, our F&W club has been asked , if we are interested in being involved in such undertakings.There was no support at all to get involved, because we are all too familiar with the behavior of the people in question, and we aren't willing to waste our time and resources, for a lost cause.

I hear you EH 11 it must have been a real disappointment.

It can still be done just in more isolated areas with more difficult access.

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

And so was I.

Elk were native to the Suffield area prior to white settlement.

Right you are but so were wolves and cougars and there was a balance that no longer exists hence the mess.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by 12DLT

Right you are but so were wolves and cougars and there was a balance that no longer exists hence the mess.

With populations like that it is only a matter of time before the predator numbers climb in the area.

There have been cougars snared in this area (WMU 502, 514) lately.

They are here because the prey species can support them.

Suffield will be no different.

Wolves have already been seen on the block.