2015 Bighorn Sheep Management Plan

[Justahunter]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

It would a great starting point, while we sit and debate what else to do, this could have begun these two things years ago!

Maybe we need to take an all new approach to hunting sheep. Perhaps having something in the middle as a requirement that will make both sides happy, and the sheep most of all...

Perhaps having a ram, having to meet the 4/5th's requirement, on both horns is the answer..... Think about it!!!

Now we are starting to get somewhere. Stop thinking about the FULL CURL idea which I think is idiotic and does not work as seen on Ram Mountain , Shuda Mtn and in ZONE 400. ALL failure. Maybe a scenario where increased wait times for someone killing an under 8 yr old Ram , limited number in a lifetime , etc. combined with a slot draw. Other thing is if habitat /predation is not taken care of the pop. of 11000 is near max. So increase ewe harvest but why do we have a situation where someone drawn for ewe can still purchase a Ram tag . Cannot do that with any other species.

[bdub]

Please explain to me how full curl in 400 is a failure. What are your guidelines for determining it is a failure? Facts please, not BS.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

I do not think that you are correct in that Alberta habitat is maxed out as far sheep are concerned.



.

[Bluedog]

I have read every post, research study and different points of views on this issue and I have to agree with what PottyMouth has suggested
4/5s CURL BOTH SIDES This has to be something every one can agree on!
Would be an excellent first start
Bluedog

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by bdub

Please explain to me how full curl in 400 is a failure. What are your guidelines for determining it is a failure? Facts please, not BS.

Speaking of BS, see bolded below

Originally Posted by bdub

[/B]

What question do you want me to answer WB?

I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions in post 21. Where does it say we are going to draw 100 percent province wide and where does it say we are getting 5 tags in 400 like you stated?

Good posts Tundra. Looks like NWT has it figured out. No reason we can't have that kind of success in Alberta without having to resort to LEH.

RC, longer waits for harvesting younger Rams won't do squat in Alberta. Half of all Rams taken are killed by first timers year after year. Why would a first timer care if the ram is 5 or 10. As long as it's legal it is getting shot is what happens. Most never kill another ram or even hunt them seriously again.

Full curl or some form of full curl or double broomed > 4/5 will allow us to reach management goals. Continue with the status quo and the herd is going to continue going down the crap hole.

No offense to TM, but this comparison of dall sheep to bighorns is just plain ridiculous. Different animals, different horns, different habitat etc., etc. etc.
And comparing the NWT to Alberta, even more ridiculous. Laughable. In fact, it's so stupid that I'm not even going to waste my time explaining it to you bdub.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by bdub

[/B]

RC, longer waits for harvesting younger Rams won't do squat in Alberta. Half of all Rams taken are killed by first timers year after year. Why would a first timer care if the ram is 5 or 10. As long as it's legal it is getting shot is what happens. Most never kill another ram or even hunt them seriously again.

Full curl or some form of full curl or double broomed > 4/5 will allow us to reach management goals. Continue with the status quo and the herd is going to continue going down the crap hole.

Originally Posted by Bluedog

I have read every post, research study and different points of views on this issue and I have to agree with what PottyMouth has suggested
4/5s CURL BOTH SIDES This has to be something every one can agree on!
Would be an excellent first start
Bluedog

4/5th's on both sides( or Double Broomed as I call it) ...

-Would make sheep hunting that much more difficult for newbie hunters and even seasoned pro's....Trying to determine if a ram is legal on one side is hard enough...now do it twice!! ( may require a mentor now, which might help in the short ram harvests, and education)

- should increase the life span of the average ram

-Rams that are more vigorous rams that perhaps engage in battles more, are more likely to broom of more and perhaps live longer...

- Rams that are of age, perfect for harvest, but are heavy broomed are still eligible, unlike full curl.

- 4/5th's need to be in profile to see if they are legal. Where a full curl legal, can be easily recognized from a full frontal view, and profile view. That alone should save rams that would be full curl and not present a profile view.

- Measurements of the horns need to record, the Legal point measurements. Which would help determining average length and age of legal rams in an area, or even WMU . We all know as hunters that rams in K-country, Cadomin and Willmore all have different horn configurations, and this would help determining that, and possibly making minor changes to specific zones not province wide. (even better than sma's)

- Stiffer penalties for short rams shot, or rams shot illegally.

- Preds( cougars should be open in the 400's on a boot tag) and habitat of course are no brainers.

I've been working on the double Broomed proposal for a couple of years now...I have more on it at work....but that's the quick notes...

Our sheep are like no other sheep anywhere else. It's OK to think outside the box...JMO! I don't want to see full curl or definitely not a draw...... I don't want anyone to take my mountain time away.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by albertadave

Speaking of BS, see bolded below


No offense to TM, but this comparison of dall sheep to bighorns is just plain ridiculous. Different animals, different horns, different habitat etc., etc. etc.
And comparing the NWT to Alberta, even more ridiculous. Laughable. In fact, it's so stupid that I'm not even going to waste my time explaining it to you bdub.

Dave the only thing ridiculous about this is your post. Thinhorns and bighorns are extremely similar in behaviour and evolution. (Funny you didn't comment on WBs Yukon PDO stuff in regards to Dall sheep and the Yukon.). And don't bother explaining anything to me Dave, I doubt you could teach me anything about the topic at hand other than to show me your lack of knowledge.

Perhaps you could explain something to me Dave. What would the outfitters like to see happen besides predator control and habitat improvement. Are the outfitters pushing for draw, giving up any allocations. Is it hard to sell hunts when the ram quality is so poor in Alberta?

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by albertadave

Speaking of BS, see bolded below


No offense to TM, but this comparison of dall sheep to bighorns is just plain ridiculous. Different animals, different horns, different habitat etc., etc. etc.
And comparing the NWT to Alberta, even more ridiculous. Laughable. In fact, it's so stupid that I'm not even going to waste my time explaining it to you bdub.

No offense taken Dave

We have roughly the same size sheep population as Alberta. I've seen estimated numbers as low as 11,000 and as high as 22,000. Nothing is going to be "exact" as Alberta is very unique.

There is approximately 200 registered rams killed in the NWT and a very similar number in Alberta per year. The big difference is the age of the rams. The average age here 9-11 but the average in Alberta would be closer to 5-7.

Our sheep are doing better and better each year. We have tough winters and it is tough on them just as in Alberta. I would suggest that our winters here are a little rougher/longer but it has not changed the numbers of sheep killed or their ages on a yearly basis.

Our harvest age is much higher due to the fact that it is the outfitter's running the show. If a guide lets a client kill an 8 year old ram, he is gonna get a good talking to by the boss. If he does it twice.....pretty sure he's on a plane. You and I both know and understand that each outfitter manages their area for trophy quality. They run a very limited season of about 8 weeks. They do not go in there and rape and pillage. It is legal for them to shoot 3/4 curl rams but it does not happen. Including all licensed harvest, I can confidently say that there would be less than 10 sheep killed per year that would be even close to a 3/4 curl.

We have little to no "resident" hunters unlike Alberta. This is a bonus for us as the individuals killing our sheep are what I would refer to as "sheep educated" and truly looking for and only killing mature rams.

I would say we have more subsistence hunters taking sheep but this is not a known number. They are here but the numbers are not available. I mentioned the number of 100 sheep earlier and that was truly a guess. After talking to our operator in Tsigigehtchic tonight, it is much higher than that. Still an irrelevant number in the big picture. These are rams, ewes and lambs.

We have very little predator control where as Alberta has what I would call "some" due to the fact that you have resident hunters making a dent in them.

I acknowledged the difference between the sheep species earlier when talking about brooming. This could be covered by an age caveat on them. Most sheep hunters that I know would take a 10-11 year old broomed ram if it was sitting next to a pretty 7 year old full curl. Unfortunately in Alberta right now.....that 11 year old ram may be illegal due to brooming. That is just crazy imo.

This brings me to my main point. Does it not make sense that proper management tool would be to take the old rams that have already done their thing as opposed to the ones that are just coming into their own?

In my mind, I could justify "thinning" the herd if numbers were too large. The lamb slam, ewe tags....this is what I would call a management tool. We have nothing like this here and it is illegal for licensed hunters to shoot either.

But taking the rams that will be coming into their own in 3-4 years makes no sense to me. I feel that it is truly detrimental to herd dynamics to remove these rams from the population until they have had a chance to do what they were put there to do. This is what I would call "miss-management".

If you stopped shooting the younger rams I believe that you would see a positive change in the herd dynamics over the next 20 years.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by bdub

[/B] Looks like NWT has it figured out.

Just to be straight on this Bdub......it ain't our government who has this figured out as we are a 3/4 curl rule.....it is the outfitters in the mountains.

Ironically.....quite a few of them (30%) are Alberta Residents!!!!!!!!!!

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Just to be straight on this Bdub......it ain't our government who has this figured out as we are a 3/4 curl rule.....it is the outfitters in the mountains.

Ironically.....the majority of them are Alberta Residents!!!!!!!!!!

I understand that TM, all three points.

They are effectively managing for quality by focusing the harvest on older Rams.

I also agree with you that if we focused the harvest in Alberta on older Rams we would see positive changes. It will take a while but it will happen. There will be some lean years. That's why many of these Alberta outfitters are so adamant about maintaining the status quo or pushing for LEH. Hunts are going to be a tough to sell for a while if things go full curl.

[elkonthemind]

When I read this report the things that stand out most to me are the need for more non trophy tags to allow for more feed to the sheep that are in those ranges or and need to allow for more sheep areas as in forest fires the limiting of forest fires imo from this report really stands out that we need to have more controlled fires to ensure a larger feeding area for the sheep. Imo the alberta government does little to ensure grassy slopes for grazing by sheep they just allow for overgrowth witch is really limiting the quality of sheep that can be produced out of our ranges that hold sheep. 4 1/2 year was the trophy year 30 years ago and now it is 6 1/2 year to be trophy. And horn growth in every other animal is attributed to horn growth so with lower amount of grazing areas and more animals it is really hurting the trophy quality of the animals. 30 years ago we had 5% trophy quality in ranges with lower densities of sheep now we are lucky to get 2 -3% trophy quality with higher densities. It seems really simple to me on how to fix the problem but will this government act no they will just limit our sheep hunting opportunities by this allowing for more sheep which will inevitably bring disease as we have seen in past(more sheep less food means malnutrition which will only lead to one output and that is disease and less sheep hunting opportunities). Just my rant but think that this government has no idea how to really deal with this by limiting tags and increasing population has only one outcome that is less trophy quality sheep and more disease in these ranges.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by bdub

Dave the only thing ridiculous about this is your post. Thinhorns and bighorns are extremely similar in behaviour and evolution. (Funny you didn't comment on WBs Yukon PDO stuff in regards to Dall sheep and the Yukon.). And don't bother explaining anything to me Dave, I doubt you could teach me anything about the topic at hand other than to show me your lack of knowledge.

Perhaps you could explain something to me Dave. What would the outfitters like to see happen besides predator control and habitat improvement. Are the outfitters pushing for draw, giving up any allocations. Is it hard to sell hunts when the ram quality is so poor in Alberta?

The fact that you seem to think that having the province go to full curl will make hunting sheep in Alberta the same as in the NWT makes it pretty clear just who's "lacking knowledge" lol
And if you want to know what the outfitters want, perhaps you should ask one?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by albertadave

The fact that you seem to think that having the province go to full curl will make hunting sheep in Alberta the same as in the NWT makes it pretty clear just who's "lacking knowledge" lol
And if you want to know what the outfitters want, perhaps you should ask one?

I said there is no reason we can't have the same type of success in Alberta as the NWT, not that hunting in Alberta will be the same as NWT. Get it right Dave if you want to misquote me. Success in managing our sheep herd would mean bringing the average age of our harvested Rams up to something like what is happening in the NWT. Maybe full curl isn't the entire answer, but it's a hell of a lot better than what we have now where we are killing them at 4/5 curl.

As for what outfitters want you don't have to look or ask to far to find out.

[Cjj]

Anybody that's been hanging around this province and its sheep herds during the hunting season has seen enough "squeakers" taken. A full curl regulation and a longer waiting period after a sucessful hunt is long overdue

[SLH]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

4/5th's on both sides( or Double Broomed as I call it) ...

-Would make sheep hunting that much more difficult for newbie hunters and even seasoned pro's....Trying to determine if a ram is legal on one side is hard enough...now do it twice!! ( may require a mentor now, which might help in the short ram harvests, and education)

- should increase the life span of the average ram

-Rams that are more vigorous rams that perhaps engage in battles more, are more likely to broom of more and perhaps live longer...

- Rams that are of age, perfect for harvest, but are heavy broomed are still eligible, unlike full curl.

- 4/5th's need to be in profile to see if they are legal. Where a full curl legal, can be easily recognized from a full frontal view, and profile view. That alone should save rams that would be full curl and not present a profile view.

- Measurements of the horns need to record, the Legal point measurements. Which would help determining average length and age of legal rams in an area, or even WMU . We all know as hunters that rams in K-country, Cadomin and Willmore all have different horn configurations, and this would help determining that, and possibly making minor changes to specific zones not province wide. (even better than sma's)

- Stiffer penalties for short rams shot, or rams shot illegally.

- Preds( cougars should be open in the 400's on a boot tag) and habitat of course are no brainers.

I've been working on the double Broomed proposal for a couple of years now...I have more on it at work....but that's the quick notes...

Our sheep are like no other sheep anywhere else. It's OK to think outside the box...JMO! I don't want to see full curl or definitely not a draw...... I don't want anyone to take my mountain time away.

Why don't you want full curl? If your plan as laid out here is to make it harder to harvest rams how is this better than full curl?

[SLH]

Tundra interesting info from NWT.

Would it be fair to say that the situation in NWT has always been a balnced age structure or was this developed over time from a population that was over harvested? The reason I ask is and I'm not trying to take anything away from the management as it is now, is that the pressures on this population should illustrate how and what we should be trying to achieve here. I suspect the population there was likely never over exploited.

It would suggest that managers like you have there with your management group and people like Wayne Heimer got it right when they focused on full curl harvests.

I disagree with Daves contention that your sheep and our sheep are not compareable.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by albertadave

Speaking of BS, see bolded below


No offense to TM, but this comparison of dall sheep to bighorns is just plain ridiculous. Different animals, different horns, different habitat etc., etc. etc.
And comparing the NWT to Alberta, even more ridiculous. Laughable. In fact, it's so stupid that I'm not even going to waste my time explaining it to you bdub.

I would have to disagree with you Dave, I would say it is more ridiculous to dismiss the similarities. Management issues and life history of the two are very similar.

I'm still interested in your take as a board member to the management plan, Festa's AO article and how you are incorporating those members that want the full curl rule implemented?

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by SLH

Tundra interesting info from NWT.

Would it be fair to say that the situation in NWT has always been a balnced age structure or was this developed over time from a population that was over harvested? The reason I ask is and I'm not trying to take anything away from the management as it is now, is that the pressures on this population should illustrate how and what we should be trying to achieve here. I suspect the population there was likely never over exploited.

It would suggest that managers like you have there with your management group and people like Wayne Heimer got it right when they focused on full curl harvests.

I disagree with Daves contention that your sheep and our sheep are not compareable.

I would say that it is a very fair assessment that we had a natural population scenario and then proceeded not to break it.

Outfitting in the Mackenzie Mountains started around 1980 here in the NWT. My best guess is that it was essentially in it's natural state when it started. Non licensed harvest of sheep would have been low as the hunting of moose/caribou is much more accessible and a more effective way of filling the freezer.

It is amazing to me as to how much information about it is available on line. I don't give our govt. kudos very often but I will in this instance.

Although we have a 3/4 rule in effect, the vast majority (approx. 90%) of the rams recorded were at least 9 years of age as far as I have seen. I attribute this to the fact that outfitted hunts make up 95+% of the recorded annual harvest of rams.

Harvest numbers in the NWT have remained very consistant throughout this time at right around, or slightly higher than 200/year.

Heimer's literature was cited in this 1986 report so I would suggest his fingerprints were all over it.

http://www.enr.gov.nt.ca/sites/defau...manuscript.pdf

I also noticed that my retired neighbour who was a govt. biologist (R. Graf) is cited in this report. Guess where I'm going for a few drinks tomorrow!!!!

I disagree with AD's dismissal of the comparison as well. There is no reason to "re-invent" the wheel so to speak.

Unfortunately, after reading the plan in the first post, I think that the wheel is going to take a little while to gain momentum down there.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Do you really think the Yukon and Alberta can be viewed in a straight comparison?

The more I think about it, yes I do.

Not that I'd put my simpleton mind in the same league as professionals like Val Geist and Wayne Heimer.......but they seemed to apply that science to both species. Who woulda thunk that eh!!!!

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by SLH

I would have to disagree with you Dave, I would say it is more ridiculous to dismiss the similarities. Management issues and life history of the two are very similar.

I'm still interested in your take as a board member to the management plan, Festa's AO article and how you are incorporating those members that want the full curl rule implemented?

Let's get something straight here "SLH". Any opinions, or comments, that I convey on this message board are strictly those of albertadave. I am not going to make ANY sort of official statement on AO, on behalf of any organization that I am involved with, that you and your cohorts will go on to endlessly twist and misquote while cowering in anonymity behind your keyboards. Sorry, not going to take that bait. If you would like an official statement on the position of WSFA with regard to the issues you mentioned, then I suggest that you go through the proper channels. All the contact information you need is available here: http://www.wsfab.org/

[Justahunter]

Originally Posted by bdub

Please explain to me how full curl in 400 is a failure. What are your guidelines for determining it is a failure? Facts please, not BS.

Bdub you are pretty quick to call BS. The real BS comes from you. The only thing you have offered on this forum is one opinion. It has gotta be FULL CURL. Get more creative please. As for 400 look at the stats. 2 sheep in 5 yrs then 20% of harvest then need to reduce the length of the season. Hardly cause to claim success. Would of got better success by simply reducing predation and throwing out some minerals. But then that is not really your agenda is it

[SLH]

Originally Posted by albertadave

Let's get something straight here "SLH". Any opinions, or comments, that I convey on this message board are strictly those of albertadave. I am not going to make ANY sort of official statement on AO, on behalf of any organization that I am involved with, that you and your cohorts will go on to endlessly twist and misquote while cowering in anonymity behind your keyboards. Sorry, not going to take that bait. If you would like an official statement on the position of WSFA with regard to the issues you mentioned, then I suggest that you go through the proper channels. All the contact information you need is available here: http://www.wsfab.org/

Thanks Dave, fair enough, I'll check out the site and get the contact info from there. Will look forward to hearing from anyone that will be willing to reply.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by Justahunter

Bdub you are pretty quick to call BS. The real BS comes from you. The only thing you have offered on this forum is one opinion. It has gotta be FULL CURL. Get more creative please. As for 400 look at the stats. 2 sheep in 5 yrs then 20% of harvest then need to reduce the length of the season. Hardly cause to claim success. Would of got better success by simply reducing predation and throwing out some minerals. But then that is not really your agenda is it

Interesting #'s here's what I see, 11% rams, a high lamb:ewe, healthy population totals which could be moving to the inclusion of a ewe hunt, a sustainable full curl harvest that will only get better of between 15-20% of the trophy ram population (right in line with the management plan) meaning that we will never have a problem there with herd dynamics or a perceived call to change to a draw. An increase in horn size of 8 cm and an increase of age around 1.5 years.

That's a success not a failure. The idea floated to reduce the season by a week was floated by the bio because if the rest goes full curl this zone is going to be over run with hunters. I believe that it is unnecessary as the full curl rule should be enough but the disturbance will have an effect on all sheep in the zone not just the rams. it is a prudent move.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Justahunter

Bdub you are pretty quick to call BS. The real BS comes from you. The only thing you have offered on this forum is one opinion. It has gotta be FULL CURL. Get more creative please. As for 400 look at the stats. 2 sheep in 5 yrs then 20% of harvest then need to reduce the length of the season. Hardly cause to claim success. Would of got better success by simply reducing predation and throwing out some minerals. But then that is not really your agenda is it

What exactly is my agenda? I've been hunting sheep since my youth, close to thirty years now. My only agenda is to see sheep hunting improve and our opportunity to hunt them not disappear. The only options that will meet our management goals, retain maximum Hunter opportunity ie. No LEH, and improve the sheep herd is full curl or some form of. Keep fighting the full curl thing and you will be enjoying LEH before you know it. Exactly what the outfitters in this province would LOVE to see.

Here is a picture of the success in 400 JM. Post season surveys of our herd showing a large percentage of 4/5 plus Rams lsft over to ensure a healthy rut.

Harvest of Rams has averaged 6 full curl Rams, and up to 8 full curl Rams a season out of 280 sheep. If we had that kind of success province wide by going full curl in we would be killing virtually the same number of full curl Rams as we are currently killing at 4/5. About 140-185 full curl Rams per year. That would be success in my books.

As for full curl being the only option I am pushing, not true. Right from the beginning of this debate I have pushed for double broomed but greater than 4/5 as another option that would shift the harvest age upwards.

[Speckle55]

Where is the Problem ?

same number

same number harvested

same year classes coming up

New World record ram

Montana/states wanted our and others genetics ..they are expanding habitat

Parks have a pool of untouched (Bio's perfect herd)

Minerals/feed and genetics/stress have more to do with horn size

you see in life different valleys have different potential

the further north the thinner horn and bases

comparing a Willmore ram with a Cadomin ram or south

Was the 70's plan to increase harvest a failure (still the same numbers)

is the 2016 plan to reduce harvest ?

where will the sheep hunt for the average Albertan go ?

are we making this a Outfitter/Trophy Full Curl Alberta ?

our numbers prove that this is sustainable

what's this new plan offer to increase opportunity for Albertans?

are we increasing habitat to increase opportunity

hey you Yukon or NWT any New World Records Dahl or Stone because in Alberta we have had 2 in the last 20 years and 4 in the top 10 Athabasca river south ..genetics

some times Mother Nature over rules Man ..duh you think!!!

David

Wow where is the PROBLEM

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Where is the Problem ?

same number

same number harvested

same year classes coming up

New World record ram

Montana/states wanted our and others genetics ..they are expanding habitat

Parks have a pool of untouched (Bio's perfect herd)

Minerals/feed and genetics/stress have more to do with horn size

you see in life different valleys have different potential

the further north the thinner horn and bases

comparing a Willmore ram with a Cadomin ram or south

Was the 70's plan to increase harvest a failure (still the same numbers)

is the 2016 plan to reduce harvest ?

where will the sheep hunt for the average Albertan go ?

are we making this a Outfitter/Trophy Full Curl Alberta ?

our numbers prove that this is sustainable

what's this new plan offer to increase opportunity for Albertans?

are we increasing habitat to increase opportunity

hey you Yukon or NWT any New World Records Dahl or Stone because in Alberta we have had 2 in the last 20 years and 4 in the top 10 Athabasca river south ..genetics

some times Mother Nature over rules Man ..duh you think!!!

David

Wow where is the PROBLEM

Same number harvested Dave? Nope, been dropping steadily since the early 90's.

Same age class coming up Dave? A stunning lack of class 5 Rams showing up in the harvest and post season surveys.

Lots of big Rams coming from Alberta. Yup, where from Dave. Places they are allowed to survive into old age. Mine sites, sanctuaries.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by SLH

Thanks Dave, fair enough, I'll check out the site and get the contact info from there. Will look forward to hearing from anyone that will be willing to reply.

If you feel that you are not getting the type of response that you desire, then I would reccomend that you contact our southern director. I'm sure he will give you all the information that you are looking for.

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by bdub

Same number harvested Dave? Nope, been dropping steadily since the early 90's.

Same age class coming up Dave? A stunning lack of class 5 Rams showing up in the harvest and post season surveys.

Lots of big Rams coming from Alberta. Yup, where from Dave. Places they are allowed to survive into old age. Mine sites, sanctuaries.

...
so you agree the 70's plan failed when it went to 4/5 curl

Wow

then you get a Die off ..even Ram Mountain.. look at your chart

if you get to many sheep in a area/or other factors like stress and one gets sick

a full curl ram in Willmore is 170 class to 180 thin horn

so you agree that we have Big Rams in Alberta with out reducing harvest

if you increase habitat you think opportunity's for Albertan's will go up

a trans plant here or there will increase herd dyamics/genetics

Why are the Elk in Shuffield so big and many after being introduced

A stunning lack of class 5 Rams showing up in the harvest and post season surveys.



if your talking 20 rams missing from the top just do a little heli fishing in sheep range and more will go into reserves ..duh.. even Val talks about

lots of factors

if you don't have the proper habitat good luck improving size /numbers your on a slippery slope of reduction of opportunity

Lots of big Rams coming from Alberta. Yup, where from Dave. Places they are allowed to survive into old age. Mine sites, sanctuaries.[/QUOTE]

yep and that's the sperm bank that we always have had ..now we are going to expand to Alberta Lands and reduce opportunity's..

on the mine site's you know I don't agree with high numbers in industrial setting or any where high numbers
http://cwd-info.org/pdf/wildlife_baiting.pdf


Food for Thought

David

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by SLH

Why don't you want full curl? If your plan as laid out here is to make it harder to harvest rams how is this better than full curl?

Effectively it does the same as full curl, but gives the opportunity to harvest mature heavy broomed rams that may never get to full curl.

Just because a ram meets the full curl requirement, doesn't mean that age wise he is prime for harvest. I think full curl would only slow down the harvest for a few years, but then we would eventually run into the same kind of issues. A ram who might be more active in the breeding season, may end up brooming one horn enough to save him for a extra year or two, which would get that age up, but still may not be full curl and give hunter that same opportunity we have now.

I agree with bdub, that a majority of young rams are being taken by guys who only want one, or finally see their first legal ram.

SLH, it's probably easier to discuss over the phone, pm your number and I can call you, if you want to hear more.

[Torkdiesel]

How on earth can you compare Dall sheep from the NWT with Bighorns in Alberta ?

Of course they are killing older Rams there. 95% of the Rams are being killed by professionals, they have zero competition and when a ram does broom off making it unshootable they can kill it on age. Not likely happening with 3/4 curl but let's compare apples to apples.

Alberta has thousands of residents running around the mountains, outfitters likely won't pass up a legal ram because somebody else might kill it and you can't kill a bighorn off of age.

IMO full curl is not the way to go. If they want more Rams put it on draw like everything else. It's coming anyway, this won't be the one species that somehow escapes the inevitable. Alberta's population is growing too fast, just a matter of time.