CHAS ranges shut down.....again

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by saskbooknut

This is not CHAS specific, but some need to hear this -

You don't just pay your money at a volunteer run, not-for-profit club, unless you are a freeloader.
It's not a commercial service.
Part of your responsibility, as a member of a not-for-profit club, is volunteer labour.
The membership fee is a minor part of the real cost to run a club range.
Don't like the conditions? Find a commercial range.

How about this idea, maybe charge the non members who are getting to use the facility during its prime and peak times, a decent fee?
Then that money could go to improving and maintaining the place
Don’t expect people to come and help if they can’t even use it

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If you buy a membership at a for profit range or golf course, then the staff is paid to run the facility. With a non profit, volunteer run facility, someone has to do the work, and if nobody volunteers, the facility closes, it's really that simple.

Private golf courses are not for profit

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Private golf courses are not for profit

Some are, and most have paid staff, whereas most outdoor ranges depend on volunteers to do most if not all of the work.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by A.H.

SN, I am in no way involved with CHAS, not a member or on the board. I am part of the executive for another club. I have no clue about the inner workings or executive of the CHAS club an how they may act at meetings or on the range. My posting here was only to point out how to make the changes you all want. Too many private bookings, stand up and raise your voice. Don't like the executive, stand up and raise your voice. If you want change, you have to stand up and make it happen, not just complain on a forum or to your buddies.



It is important for all Gun Clubs to stay alive and stay open, as we are all slowly being shut down. United we stand, divided we fall.



On this note, I am out of this thread.



Shoot Straight



A.H

I'm glad you are out of this thread. It's obvious by your answers that you never read much, if anything, but just spouted off on your hobby horse. If you did, you'd see that this place was and is run like a joke, with executive acting like they're god's gift, and shouldn't have to answer questions. If you haven't ever been part of this club then you don't have a clue of what you are talking about.

A middle class guy on this forum makes $400 day give or take. So is the $200 membership actually a $600 or more membership?

If the memberships are $200 to shoot then they are $200 to shoot. Period.

Many of us have had kids in sports where you pay a "volunteer fee" that you earn back if you devote time to the club. Some put in their time. Others choose not too, but they've done their part.

Never have I heard a single person by bitch about the parents who choose to give a bit extra money instead.

All you high and mighty folks who are lecturing about what it means to be a "true member," whatever the hell that is, please forgive those evil louts who don't consider a gun range membership to be the most important thing in their lives, as maybe they figured out that their time is the most valuable thing they have.

No one needs the guilt trip.

It's neither here more there, but I'm betting that a lot of the guys doing the lecturing pay to have their oil changed. Why? It's not worth their time.




Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[elkhunter11]

Looking at the CHAS schedule, there is some type of event pretty much every weeked, and with only one range open, the general membership will have pretty much zero use of the range on weekends. It's not hard to see why members are leaving CHAS to take memberships elsewhere. Hopefully, the range will not be shut down completely, or the executive will likely be looking for another range to take over , to hold their events at, while the general membership pays the bills to maintain the range.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Looking at the CHAS schedule, there is some type of event pretty much every weeked, and with only one range open, the general membership will have pretty much zero use of the range on weekends. It's not hard to see why members are leaving CHAS to take memberships elsewhere. Hopefully, the range will not be shut down completely, or the executive will likely be looking for another range to take over , to hold their events at, while the general membership pays the bills to maintain the range.

I wasn’t joking
🤷*♂️

[Scar270]

Originally Posted by saskbooknut

This is not CHAS specific, but some need to hear this -

You don't just pay your money at a volunteer run, not-for-profit club, unless you are a freeloader.
It's not a commercial service.
Part of your responsibility, as a member of a not-for-profit club, is volunteer labour.
The membership fee is a minor part of the real cost to run a club range.
Don't like the conditions? Find a commercial range.

This, without volunteers most clubs would have to increase membership dues 10x, and then they would lose 90% of the membership and need to increase 10x again.

Why do people think so few clubs are private for profit businesses?

I dont belong to CHAS or really know the issues, but I suspect most of the people complaining have no idea the history of trying to keep the range open, or how much diplomacy has been tried in the past. Sometimes a little give wins the day, other times it just emboldens those who dont want the range to push for more.

A registry, an AR Ban, etc have never slowed down anti gunners from asking for a complete ban. For too many opponents to shooting sport there is no compromising, they want us gone, and appeasement wil never worm.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Scar270

This, without volunteers most clubs would have to increase membership dues 10x, and then they would lose 90% of the membership and need to increase 10x again.

Why do people think so few clubs are private for profit businesses?

I dont belong to CHAS or really know the issues, but I suspect most of the people complaining have no idea the history of trying to keep the range open, or how much diplomacy has been tried in the past. Sometimes a little give wins the day, other times it just emboldens those who dont want the range to push for more.

A registry, an AR Ban, etc have never slowed down anti gunners from asking for a complete ban. For too many opponents to shooting sport there is no compromising, they want us gone, and appeasement wil never worm.

Sadly, many people have no idea what is involved in running a range. Our range is one of the smaller ranges, and there is a combined total of over 1000 volunteer hours per year to run the club. That includes everything from cutting grass, to removing snow, to building/repairing target stands, clubhouse repairs, maintaining/repairing skeet/trap machines, maintaining the utility tractor and mower, maintaining repairing the electric gate and cameras/computer system, road repairs, hauling building supplies, cleaning/maintainig the indoor range, dealing with insurance/city/CFO etc.
We don't get tax money, like the hockey arenas, baseball diamonds, soccer fields and swimming pools do when you sign your children up to use those facilities, just imagine what it would cost to enroll your children, if user fees had to cover the entire cost to build and maintain those facilities. If we had to farm that out to bring in a lawn care/snow removal service, bring in carpenters, electricians, equipment to repair the road, service calls for the gate, cameras,skeet machines etc, have an accountant do the finances/insurance , and pay someone to come in and build replace the target bases/backboards, and haul away the garbage, our expenses would climb by well over $100k per year. For a large club like SPFGA that has over 5000 members, that only amounts to about $20 per member in extra costs, but for a small club like ours, that would require us to increase our membership fee to around $350, from the current $130. Of course the result would be many people not purchasing memberships, so we would have to increase fees to compensate for the loss in memberships, and the membership fee would rise to at least $500 per year, more than triple what it is now.
So for the people that want to pay for someone else to do all of the work, and eliminate the volunteers, how much would you be willing to pay for a range membership? Would you be willing to pay $500 for a small bare bones range, or over $1000 for a much nicer range with a clubhouse with central heating and A/C, and the other nice extras? Many people will pay that much for a golf membership, yet they wouldn't pay the same for a range membership.
And of course if you couldn't use your range on weekends, like CHAS, people would be even less willing to pay much higher fees, to subsidize the competitive shooters.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Sadly, many people have no idea what is involved in running a range. Our range is one of the smaller ranges, and there is a combined total of over 1000 volunteer hours per year to run the club. That includes everything from cutting grass, to removing snow, to building/repairing target stands, clubhouse repairs, maintaining/repairing skeet/trap machines, maintaining the utility tractor and mower, maintaining repairing the electric gate and cameras/computer system, road repairs, hauling building supplies, cleaning/maintainig the indoor range, dealing with insurance/city/CFO etc.
We don't get tax money, like the hockey arenas, baseball diamonds, soccer fields and swimming pools do when you sign your children up to use those facilities, just imagine what it would cost to enroll your children, if user fees had to cover the entire cost to build and maintain those facilities. If we had to farm that out to bring in a lawn care/snow removal service, bring in carpenters, electricians, equipment to repair the road, service calls for the gate, cameras,skeet machines etc, have an accountant do the finances/insurance , and pay someone to come in and build replace the target bases/backboards, and haul away the garbage, our expenses would climb by well over $100k per year. For a large club like SPFGA that has over 5000 members, that only amounts to about $20 per member in extra costs, but for a small club like ours, that would require us to increase our membership fee to around $350, from the current $130. Of course the result would be many people not purchasing memberships, so we would have to increase fees to compensate for the loss in memberships, and the membership fee would rise to at least $500 per year, more than triple what it is now.
So for the people that want to pay for someone else to do all of the work, and eliminate the volunteers, how much would you be willing to pay for a range membership? Would you be willing to pay $500 for a small bare bones range, or over $1000 for a much nicer range with a clubhouse with central heating and A/C, and the other nice extras? Many people will pay that much for a golf membership, yet they wouldn't pay the same for a range membership.
And of course if you couldn't use your range on weekends, like CHAS, people would be even less willing to pay much higher fees, to subsidize the competitive shooters.

How often do you use your range?

I use chas 3-4 times a year due to limited access
There has been years where I haven’t even gone 1 time
How many days should I volunteer to meet your social contribution standards

[Scar270]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

How often do you use your range?

I use chas 3-4 times a year due to limited access
There has been years where I haven’t even gone 1 time
How many days should I volunteer to meet your social contribution standards

Volunteer enough the range meets your standards, and the standards of everyone else who may use it. Thats what you seem to expect of the current exec.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by A.H.

I don't comment often but feel I need to comment on this one. This goes for all types of clubs, be it Shooting ranges, Fish and Game clubs, Kids Sports Clubs, Community Leagues, etc. I see some forum members are complaining how this is the executives fault. The executive doesn't listen to the members, The Executive is a Good Ol Boys Club.

The comment I have is, if you don't like what your executive is doing, attend the meetings and direct your executive on what you would like to see happen. Or better yet, VOLUNTEER and become part of the executive. It is easy to pay your money and then sit back, take advantage of all of the perks of the club, and b***h about what you don't like.

True members that care attend the meetings and volunteer wherever/whenever they can. They try and make their community's better. Being "too busy" to help, is just an excuse. It is because of these members that all types of Clubs are closing their doors. Executive eventually get burnt out, but there is nobody stepping up to take on the role.

Everybody need to take a look in the mirror and ask themselves, what did I do to make my community better, not complain about how bad their community is.

I am not a member of CHAS, but do sit on the executive for a Fish and Game/Gun Club. I coach my children's sports, or if I don't coach, I help out wherever I can. I also run my own small business. If I have time, everybody else can find a little time to help out.

A.H

I agree with this, volunteer, get involved, yes your gonna meet difficult times but perseverance pays off and over time you will change the direction of a club.
The key is to stay positive and motivate those around you and in the long run it will change.

Hope the best for the range, frustrating but worth it to those who enjoy the shooting sports.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

How often do you use your range?

I use chas 3-4 times a year due to limited access
There has been years where I haven’t even gone 1 time
How many days should I volunteer to meet your social contribution standards

Looking at the CHAS schedule, I wouldn't even consider a membership there, and if there were entire years that I never went once, why would I even bother with a membership? I would go elsewhere, where I can actually use the range, likely a place like SPFGA, where they have a paid maintenance person, and don't depend on volunteers to do the maintenance.
What I was pointing out, is that many ranges do not have hired staff, because they can't afford to pay staff, and still offer membership prices that are affordable for the average person/family. And because they don't have hired staff, they can't operate without volunteers, so if everyone shared the the idea of " I paid my membership, so I shouldn't have to do anything " , those ranges would cease to operate. Most years, there is no voting at the elections, because nobody wants the responsibility, but someone steps forward, because they realize that with no volunteers, there is no range.
A range I used to belong to was being run by the executive as their own club, where their disciplines were the priority, and the rest didn't matter, this went on for years, because nobody was willing to run for the executive to make changes. I ran for the executive, and over the next few years a few more people ran, and eventually the old executive was displaced, and a new executive took over, and is operating the club for the benefit of the entire membership. And the executive of that club, is made up of people that work full time for a living, but they make the time to keep the club running.

[catnthehat]

Anytime you get a recreational range with a single minded e elusive things go bad for those not involved in that particular discipline.
For years the trap and skeet crowd ran our range, and the black powder crew, A well as the IPSC crowd and the silhouette shooters

I found it amusing that each disciine considered themselves a separate club and only " used the F&G range" and wanted special concessions .
I suspect that CHAS has that issue.
Unless you are a competitive shooter of a particular discipline, or are riding in the back of the bus.
Cat

[Pathfinder76]

The irony is that shooting sports disciplines seem to be what is killing this sport.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder76

The irony is that shooting sports disciplines seem to be what is killing this sport.

I think these events are great for the sport, they have attracted tons of new shooters into the sport. On the other hand it does present a problem of how to deal with the surge of new shooters who only want to shoot their preferred discipline who demand their particular needs be prioritized above others. Most ranges cannot be all things to all members and need to be managed accordingly.

Our range put a cap on membership and pretty much only allows one weekend per month for special events in spring and summer of which only one event uses both days of one weekend once a year, all other weekend events use only one day and one of the 2 ranges is left open for members only. We do silhouette, trap, etc on scheduled weeknights for members only. The members have to be a priority in any club, the travelling weekend event shooters are not a priority, they do not buy memberships and they don't volunteer except for the odd ones who show up early to help set up and pitch in to clean up after a shoot. They may drop a few dollars into the coffers paying event fees but clubs cannot forsake their own membership for constant weekend events that most members are not interested in and are preventing them from using the range.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Sadly, many people have no idea what is involved in running a range. Our range is one of the smaller ranges, and there is a combined total of over 1000 volunteer hours per year to run the club. That includes everything from cutting grass, to removing snow, to building/repairing target stands, clubhouse repairs, maintaining/repairing skeet/trap machines, maintaining the utility tractor and mower, maintaining repairing the electric gate and cameras/computer system, road repairs, hauling building supplies, cleaning/maintainig the indoor range, dealing with insurance/city/CFO etc.
We don't get tax money, like the hockey arenas, baseball diamonds, soccer fields and swimming pools do when you sign your children up to use those facilities, just imagine what it would cost to enroll your children, if user fees had to cover the entire cost to build and maintain those facilities. If we had to farm that out to bring in a lawn care/snow removal service, bring in carpenters, electricians, equipment to repair the road, service calls for the gate, cameras,skeet machines etc, have an accountant do the finances/insurance , and pay someone to come in and build replace the target bases/backboards, and haul away the garbage, our expenses would climb by well over $100k per year. For a large club like SPFGA that has over 5000 members, that only amounts to about $20 per member in extra costs, but for a small club like ours, that would require us to increase our membership fee to around $350, from the current $130. Of course the result would be many people not purchasing memberships, so we would have to increase fees to compensate for the loss in memberships, and the membership fee would rise to at least $500 per year, more than triple what it is now.
So for the people that want to pay for someone else to do all of the work, and eliminate the volunteers, how much would you be willing to pay for a range membership? Would you be willing to pay $500 for a small bare bones range, or over $1000 for a much nicer range with a clubhouse with central heating and A/C, and the other nice extras? Many people will pay that much for a golf membership, yet they wouldn't pay the same for a range membership.
And of course if you couldn't use your range on weekends, like CHAS, people would be even less willing to pay much higher fees, to subsidize the competitive shooters.

I’d happily spend $300-500 a year to be able to book a time to shoot long range with no one else around, close to home. Somewhat surprised it hasn’t been done.

The guys who are saying get involved - I don’t polish turds. Who is gonna invest thousand of dollars (membership, fuel, materials etc) and weeks of time into a complete disaster that has a bunch of goons keeping it that way? Life is too short.

[catnthehat]

The first thought we always have when approached fir an event is how it will impact the members of the range, but it was not always that way .
We are fortunate in that we have several smallbore, archery, pistol and rifle ranges and several of our rages are templated for pistols and rifles .
The last time we hosted a major event , I believe it was
The Winter games ( can't remember if it was Artic or Alberta ) and that will be rheast time !
The range was completly closed for anybody but participants.
Our Provincial IPSC shoots do not inconvenience our members as they can use the other ranges , and even our long range shoots do not close off the entire center fire range all day .
I have been a member of our range since 1975 and it is a fantastic facility for those that are competitive shooters and those that just want to shoot their guns
Cat

[Cross Eyed Cowboy]

Getting back on topic with regards to CHAS.

I took the time to review some of the documents available at the County of Leduc website that are applicable to their current state of affairs just to try and get a better understanding of what is going on.

I'm no legal professional, but I must say my interpretation and understanding of what I read tells me they have a very rocky road ahead.

The recurring thought while reviewing these documents was what where the executives thinking when they made some of these decisions?

Doesn't appear they took the time to get professional/technical advice for some of the their plans both past, present and proposed.

You just can't do what ever you want nowadays just because you have a legal title to a property.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 3blade

I’d happily spend $300-500 a year to be able to book a time to shoot long range with no one else around, close to home. Somewhat surprised it hasn’t been done.

The guys who are saying get involved - I don’t polish turds. Who is gonna invest thousand of dollars (membership, fuel, materials etc) and weeks of time into a complete disaster that has a bunch of goons keeping it that way? Life is too short.

Calculate the cost to buy the land, set up a range and buy insurance, and maintain the range and then calculate how many private three hour bookings you could make in a year, and it will soon become obvious why nobody has done this. At most you would end up with about 1200 time slots in a year. And of course that doesn't take into account rain or snow, heavy winds, or cold weather, so you would need a totally sheltered shooting lane with heated bench area, to allow booking all year, which would drive the costs up even higher. So with only four bookings per person per year, that would allow 300 members. If you wanted to shoot once per month, that would only allow 100 members. You could place multiple covered tunnels side by side to increase capacity, but then you wouldn't be shooting with nobody else around, and the cost would rise considerably. And then the tunnels would need to be underground, or have berms between them to allow people to travel back and forth to the targets independently.
To be close to home for a large number of people, you would need to be close to a large city, and to shoot 1000 yards, you would need to buy a 1/2 section. So price out a 1/2 section near a large city, then price out constructing the shooting tunnels. If they are underground, and covered, noise and stray bullets wouldn't be an issue, but the cost to build 1000 yard covered tunnels , and keep then dry would be very high. To build multiple covered tunnels 1000 yards long would likely cost millions, on top of the price of the land, so figure out how much you would have to charge each member to ever recover your investment, let alone make a profit, and it would probably in the thousands, not hundreds per year.
That is why it hasn't been done.

[3blade]

I wasn’t thinking of buying the land, obviously that is cost prohibitive, more like someone setting up a private for-profit range because they already owned land that would be appropriate. But yeah when you factor in the limited weather window and legal costs, it makes sense why we don’t see it.

Edmonton has the population to support a better option than CHAS. Hopefully, for the sake of firearms ownership in general, someone with the right knowledge and resources makes it happen.

[AI 6.5]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

I think these events are great for the sport, they have attracted tons of new shooters into the sport. On the other hand it does present a problem of how to deal with the surge of new shooters who only want to shoot their preferred discipline who demand their particular needs be prioritized above others. Most ranges cannot be all things to all members and need to be managed accordingly.

Our range put a cap on membership and pretty much only allows one weekend per month for special events in spring and summer of which only one event uses both days of one weekend once a year, all other weekend events use only one day and one of the 2 ranges is left open for members only. We do silhouette, trap, etc on scheduled weeknights for members only. The members have to be a priority in any club, the travelling weekend event shooters are not a priority, they do not buy memberships and they don't volunteer except for the odd ones who show up early to help set up and pitch in to clean up after a shoot. They may drop a few dollars into the coffers paying event fees but clubs cannot forsake their own membership for constant weekend events that most members are not interested in and are preventing them from using the range.

Well said, agree 100%.

[DirtShooter]

After reading this boy am I glad we stopped having CHAS memberships.

[Cross Eyed Cowboy]

CHAS caters to the long range shooting crowd who typically have a great deal of money tied up in their gear, these folks help feed sales at couple of specialty gun retailers in the Edmonton area.

The membership who are new to the sport or prefer the disciplines of short range or pistol shooting take a back seat.

Just one of the reasons membership levels are low at CHAS.