Changes to Sheep Hunting Regulations

[ram crazy]

Some good reading. I like the one read from Ovis40. The second sentence pretty much sums it up why there is a decline with letting domestic animals into sheep ranges, but yet they do nothing about it. And the part where subsistence hunting is unmeasured and NOT important, so they made all these changes over the years to try and help the decline but they left out a couple of important factors by not controlling the native hunting pressure or the control of domestic animals. I think we are a little off the 7% success rate from 1989 to today. Does anybody know how many rams have been taken in the last couple of years as I'm sure it's not anywhere near the 289 it has been when this study took place.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Some good reading. I like the one read from Ovis40. The second sentence pretty much sums it up why there is a decline with letting domestic animals into sheep ranges, but yet they do nothing about it. And the part where subsistence hunting is unmeasured and NOT important, so they made all these changes over the years to try and help the decline but they left out a couple of important factors by not controlling the native hunting pressure or the control of domestic animals. I think we are a little off the 7% success rate from 1989 to today. Does anybody know how many rams have been taken in the last couple of years as I'm sure it's not anywhere near the 289 it has been when this study took place.

Read the new draft from SRD, linked three times in the last six posts.

[Rocks]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

WHERE ARE THE MISSING RAMS?

Overall population 6466 sheep
4-5% of the population (legal Rams) 4.5% is 291 Legal rams.

A licenced harvest of 138 rams represents 2.13% of the population (6466 animals), or 47.4% harvest rate, not the claimed 90%.


Where are the 153 Legal rams that are MISSING every year?

Dale a couple things I noticed from the numbers:

If you go through the percentages of legal rams in each zone and apply to the total number of sheep you have 361 legal rams out of 6466 sheep total, for an average of 5.6%.

However if you knock Cadomin out of there (13.3% legal rams out of 1305 sheep gives you 174 legal rams) you are left with 187 legal rams out of 5161 total sheep, for a percentage of 3.6%.

If you add the NR harvest to your total you are also looking at 168 rams taken last year.

[walking buffalo]

Thanks Rocks, I'm glad someone else is also looking into the details, and catching the errors.

SMA 6 (Cadomin) Includes the mine, and all of wmu 436, 437 and 438.
Not all of SMA 6 sheep counted are mine rams.

The 2011 ACA survey showed that SMA 6, 7 and 8 had an aggregate of 4.88% legal rams in the population.

As I mentioned, I don't believe Figure 3, legal ram percantages to be accurate. For example, SMA 3 - Kananaskis, has consistently surveyed at 5% legal rams, yet the graph states the long term average legal Ram % is now 4.
This doesn't make sense.




I missed the outfitter harvest.
Last 10 year average Licenced ram harvest is 179. Last years harvest was 168. My 2011 licenced harvest number should have been 2.60% (not 2.13) of the population.








This really sucks trying to piece the puzzle together with bits of general summary information. Like most conservation minded people, I am content to have my hunting opportunity restricted when the need arises. From the general summaries provided by SRD, it is impossible to understand/believe that there is a valid concern regarding the ram population.


The overall population of Sheep has remained stable to increaing over the last 20 years. 2011 Licenced Ram harvest is equal to the average over the last ten years.

Yet there is now a supposed shortfall of Legal Rams? Where did they go?





The public needs to have this information released.

-ALL Sheep survey results (1971 to present) used to calculate the summaries including sex/legal ram numbers by SMA.

-Sheep harvest results by SMA.

-Registered Subsistence harvest and known illegal harvest numbers.

-If they want to keep on with the genetic concern disussion, the release of horn size/age data.

[Rocks]

Absolutely, we need all the information. Think we can get it?

[Speckle55]

Dale check with Srd on the days that they did the survey if the weather was totally conducive to doing a survey i heard that the conditions were poor for some with wind chill and some ranges did not have some sheep in surveyed areas than normally hold sheep so if you have a die off /cougars/avalanches/ bad year weather.. they found 40 in Cadomin big rams dead.. so in your herds of 100 sheep /2 big rams can and will change numbers of legal rams greatly/there is your missing 2 %.. and three years from now everything is back to normal

with the cougars influx in Alberta /die off of trees(Pine Beetle) in BC did it change nature's balance and they moved here? if so it will take a few years to balance out

do cougars find Big Older Rams easier to kill and key on them? is there any studys .. ie cougars will kill 40% older sheep/ 40 % younger/ 20% any sheep

these are some questions? there are lots of variables that can come into the equation..

with SRD numbers looks like nothing has changed in 30 years and it will be the same 10 years from now. but there is a chicken little and friends with a differn,t agenda

Food for Thought
David

[ishootbambi]

too bad the counts couldnt be done december 1st. then you would have a clue as to how many rams are left after hunting season....and BEFORE the sanctuary rams move in to areas that were open to hunting. thats the number i think that matters most. i have little doubt that there are zones that would be at zero on that date.

[bdub]

To me this issue relates completely to habitat and the lack of government will to provide any kind of habitat management. The age structure problem of the rams speaks to a population of sheep at the limit of the carrying capacity of their winter range not of something hereditary. As Giest says, rams from a population that has exceeded the range capacity show generally slow growth rates and old age structure. I think that they are trying to muddy the waters rather than deal with the issue of habitat. They cannot possibly be that stupid not to be able to put 2 and 2 together. It must be to costly or cause to much of a public uproar to do any kind of management. If they followed their own guidelines on habitat management this would be a non issue. Changes are coming and I hope it doesn't come down to a draw.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by bdub

To me this issue relates completely to habitat and the lack of government will to provide any kind of habitat management. The age structure problem of the rams speaks to a population of sheep at the limit of the carrying capacity of their winter range not of something hereditary. As Giest says, rams from a population that has exceeded the range capacity show generally slow growth rates and old age structure. I think that they are trying to muddy the waters rather than deal with the issue of habitat. They cannot possibly be that stupid not to be able to put 2 and 2 together. It must be to costly or cause to much of a public uproar to do any kind of management. If they followed their own guidelines on habitat management this would be a non issue. Changes are coming and I hope it doesn't come down to a draw.

I believe your assesment of the situation is accurate.


There are two issues being expressed by F&W.

1- A potential shortage of legal rams in some SMA.

2- A very recent trend showing registered rams are getting older and smaller.


Their brief summary of the data does not prove that either of these situations are occuring. We are being asked to believe what they say, with no proof being offered. This is not acceptable to me.

Decades of sound, confirmed research results seems to have been put aside for the Genetic theory.





Thanks to all who have written SRD on this issue. The volume of letters has caught SRD by surprise, and is making them reflect on potential changes.

Keep on writing letters with your questions and requests for information. We need to know the data.



The public needs to have this information released.

-ALL Sheep survey results (1971 to present) used to calculate the summaries including sex/legal ram numbers by SMA.

-Sheep harvest results by SMA.

-Registered Subsistence harvest and known illegal harvest numbers.

-If they want to keep on with the genetic concern disussion, the release of horn size/age data.

[bdub]

Their own data confirms this. Why are the rams from Cadomin and Torrins showing an increase in horns size? It is due to the expanded and superior habitat that the mine sites provide.

[walking buffalo]

We now have a few more clues to the puzzle.


It's still not detailed information, but rather a compilation of connotations towards a percieved problem. However, the information included makes the F&W website release look propogandist.


Download and save and share. What do you think? Any questions?

Gov of Alberta Bighorn Sheep, July 2011 Summary.
http://bowhunters.ca/files/Download/...0July_2011.pps

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

We now have a few more clues to the puzzle.


It's still not detailed information, but rather a compilation of connotations towards a percieved problem. However, the information included makes the F&W website release look propogandist.


Download and save and share. What do you think? Any questions?

Gov of Alberta Bighorn Sheep, July 2011 Summary.
http://bowhunters.ca/files/Download/...0July_2011.pps

If I'm reading this right, are they using averages from 1971, when the mandatory registration was introduced, until today. But are including major die offs from disease and weather and blaming smaller horn growth and less legal rams solely on trophy ram, hunting harvests?

But yet, cadomin hasn't changed in ram horn sizes, but only increased in population?

I could be off, it is late, and I'm beat!

[Duk Dog]

Just as a side note in the GSCO magazine they republish their old newsletters. The recent issue runs one from 1979. In it they state the report from Alberta was 76 non-res hunters took 41 rams for 60% and 2126 residents took 131 for 6% success.

[Peace Country]

ARD in Alberta has a much stronger pull then SRD does this is why we have livestock in the mountains that affects bighorn sheep. The Alberta government does not recognize bison east of hwy 35 as a game animal then they don't have to account for shooting bison up there all the time. Agriculture farming and livestock have a lot more say and pull the SRD does which is really sad.