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11-29-2012, 06:48 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: northern AB
Posts: 2,241
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To be or not to be ??
I guess if it were my company and drugs became a concern, I would state it in our "job description", as being required upon the employee accepting the position and also being accessable for random testing. If you don't want to work for me, move on with your life and we will to....now is there really a problem, when both parties agree to agree or not to ...
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11-29-2012, 07:56 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 12,078
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How do these compressed work weeks operate?
12 hours work...12 hours stoned?
For how many weeks?
I am not being saracastic...I just don't know.
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11-29-2012, 08:11 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nelson BC
Posts: 2,032
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Those against the arbitary use of random testing are fighting it on the basis of civil liberty. They are not against improving safety but rather dislike the idea that corporations have powers that even the RCMP are not allowed. Many think it is the thin end of the wrong wedge. But if it is alright to require industry workers to be randomly tested why not hunters and gun owners. Many are uncomfortable with coke heads and drunks having the freedom of owning firearms. in fact, more people die each year in gun incidents than heavy industry, so maybe CO's should carry drug testing kits and have powers of testing. Maybe the police should have powers to knock on any PAL owners doors and test.
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11-29-2012, 08:19 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: edmonton
Posts: 1,428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greylynx
How do these compressed work weeks operate?
12 hours work...12 hours stoned?
For how many weeks?
I am not being saracastic...I just don't know.
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haha... its three 12hr days.... then you get to go home for the night and have to come in for night shift the next day and do 3 night shifts.
Cuts overtime to 4hrs on a pay period.
It cant be good for employees.... you will never get used to sleeping during the day and the three night shifts are enough to muck up at least a few nights on days off
and cat in the hat.... yeah some pay for all 5 options on tests but many dont, saves money and people on stimulants get more work done and dont fall asleep on long hrs.
Not trying to justify lack of stimulant testing but this is sadly how some companys view it...... I wont name any names but there are enough of them to make me really wonder
Last edited by dantonsen; 11-29-2012 at 08:26 PM.
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11-29-2012, 08:28 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 2,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
Those against the arbitary use of random testing are fighting it on the basis of civil liberty. They are not against improving safety but rather dislike the idea that corporations have powers that even the RCMP are not allowed. Many think it is the thin end of the wrong wedge. But if it is alright to require industry workers to be randomly tested why not hunters and gun owners. Many are uncomfortable with coke heads and drunks having the freedom of owning firearms. in fact, more people die each year in gun incidents than heavy industry, so maybe CO's should carry drug testing kits and have powers of testing. Maybe the police should have powers to knock on any PAL owners doors and test.
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Even though I don't recognize a right to break the law, even random testing comes with a warning. After you start work you know it will happen at some point. You then have the option to stop your illegal drug use for however long you want to work there.
I don't think this power will extend to the police because you had to actually sign an agreement with your employer for this to happen.
__________________
1st Offense: We shoot you
2nd Offense: We shoot you
3rd Offense: We give you a mental evaluation, and then we shoot you
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11-29-2012, 08:33 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Alberta
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When was the last time a supervisor was tested after those Business lunch meetings in town??, or the day after a company party or function ?
It is not just the man with tools that is sometimes in breach of the rules.
How about the embarasment of an employee having to go to a center to be "tested for cause", and he tests clean as a whistle? He is being forced to go to a stranger and be clasified as a person with a drug/alcolhol problem at work when he does not have a problem. Do you think this is humiliating for a person that does not drink or use drugs? When the so called "for cause" incident investigation shows no sign of imparement what so ever, why is an employee put thru this humiliation?
If you slide off the road you do not automaticly get a breathalizer do you? The officer will evaluate your condition and then decide if it is waranted.
I have seen more white hats that would fail a test than the tradesmen . look in the control rooms of the plants and see just how many operators are showing up still under the influence.
Even the pre job tests we are forced to do are unfair. We spend up to 4 hours of our own time , without being paid, and often have to drive 40 miles each way at our own cost to take the dam thing. We pass and of course we do not get paid for our time or vehicle expense.
That said I am in favour of the very few that do not pass being billed for the tests. I should be paid for my time and vehicle to take the dam thing.
I have about 40 years in the industry, in many disciplines, across Canada and overseas.
Wouldn't it be great to have this testing program done with our politicians, judges and lawmakers, and BUSINESS AGENTS / MANAGERS.
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11-29-2012, 08:45 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petew
Wouldn't it be great to have this testing program done with our politicians, judges and lawmakers, and BUSINESS AGENTS / MANAGERS.
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yes it would, and don't forget Welfare/Pogey recipients.
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11-29-2012, 08:47 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 2,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petew
When was the last time a supervisor was tested after those Business lunch meetings in town??, or the day after a company party or function ?
It is not just the man with tools that is sometimes in breach of the rules.
How about the embarasment of an employee having to go to a center to be "tested for cause", and he tests clean as a whistle? He is being forced to go to a stranger and be clasified as a person with a drug/alcolhol problem at work when he does not have a problem. Do you think this is humiliating for a person that does not drink or use drugs? When the so called "for cause" incident investigation shows no sign of imparement what so ever, why is an employee put thru this humiliation?
If you slide off the road you do not automaticly get a breathalizer do you? The officer will evaluate your condition and then decide if it is waranted.
I have seen more white hats that would fail a test than the tradesmen . look in the control rooms of the plants and see just how many operators are showing up still under the influence.
Even the pre job tests we are forced to do are unfair. We spend up to 4 hours of our own time , without being paid, and often have to drive 40 miles each way at our own cost to take the dam thing. We pass and of course we do not get paid for our time or vehicle expense.
That said I am in favour of the very few that do not pass being billed for the tests. I should be paid for my time and vehicle to take the dam thing.
I have about 40 years in the industry, in many disciplines, across Canada and overseas.
Wouldn't it be great to have this testing program done with our politicians, judges and lawmakers, and BUSINESS AGENTS / MANAGERS.
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No offense to your years of experience but that sounds a little dramatic. They won't be hauling people away in chains to do the drug tests. I don't drink or use drugs and I wouldn't do more than raise an eyebrow if I got selected for testing.
I'd come back secure in the knowledge that I didn't do anything wrong and my coworkers would soon know that too. That's if they even knew I was tested in the first place.
__________________
1st Offense: We shoot you
2nd Offense: We shoot you
3rd Offense: We give you a mental evaluation, and then we shoot you
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11-29-2012, 09:05 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nelson BC
Posts: 2,032
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I believe it confuses the issue when you personalise it. Whether you are bothered about peeing in a bottle or not is largely irrelevant. What you are freely giving up are your civil rights and the civil rights of others. This might be worth it if there is some valuable outcome but there is no evidence what-so-ever that prohibition works. On the contrary, there is much evidence to suggest prohibition causes more harm than good. At best Suncor will simply displace the problem to others. At worst their workers will find ways around the testing. BUT regardless of whether it is effective, a legal precedent has been set that if you engage in a "dangerous activity" then society can impose a new set of rules. We just won our fight on gun registery IMO for the very same reasons why you should oppose this proposed prctice. The vast majority of us are ethical, dilligent people with enough control levied in our lives.
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11-29-2012, 09:15 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 2,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
I believe it confuses the issue when you personalise it. Whether you are bothered about peeing in a bottle or not is largely irrelevant. What you are freely giving up are your civil rights and the civil rights of others. This might be worth it if there is some valuable outcome but there is no evidence what-so-ever that prohibition works. On the contrary, there is much evidence to suggest prohibition causes more harm than good. At best Suncor will simply displace the problem to others. At worst their workers will find ways around the testing. BUT regardless of whether it is effective, a legal precedent has been set that if you engage in a "dangerous activity" then society can impose a new set of rules. We just won our fight on gun registery IMO for the very same reasons why you should oppose this proposed prctice. The vast majority of us are ethical, dilligent people with enough control levied in our lives.
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No rights are being given up.
If I go to work I accept that I might be chosen for testing. If I go for a drive I accept I might get pulled over.
Certain actions come with responsibilities. If I don't want to deal with those I can do something else.
__________________
1st Offense: We shoot you
2nd Offense: We shoot you
3rd Offense: We give you a mental evaluation, and then we shoot you
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11-29-2012, 09:36 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by score
There should be drug testing period. There are so many safety measures in place and to protest this one is ridiculous. People want to claim this to be against the druggies rights. It is against my rights and the rights of my family to be at peril because of some wacked out druggie impaired by any substance legal or not.
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Its not a safety measure... its a witch hunt.
Never ceases to amaze me how fast people will hand over their rights to politicians and corporations in the name of security or safety.
Its the same kind of thinking that got us a long gun registry and a joke of a licensing system.
Name one person saved by random testing folks.
Explain to me how random testing proves impairment on the job.
How many executives who have a great deal of influence regarding how safe your work site is will be tested?
Seems like a lot of conservatives here can't tell the right from the left when it comes to this stuff.
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11-29-2012, 09:42 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Cool
No rights are being given up.
If I go to work I accept that I might be chosen for testing. If I go for a drive I accept I might get pulled over.
Certain actions come with responsibilities. If I don't want to deal with those I can do something else.
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Really?
None?
If you get pulled over and tested its because elected representatives legislated the law rtha allowed that...the police we hire are doing it and... it is for CAUSE... not just because they pull your name out of a hat.
The suggestion that no rights are lost when ... a company goon can randomly choose to test without cause... then punish without proof of impairment or trial is ridiculous.
Rights... they are worth protecting even when they become inconvenient.
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11-29-2012, 09:44 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dantonsen
haha... its three 12hr days.... then you get to go home for the night and have to come in for night shift the next day and do 3 night shifts.
Cuts overtime to 4hrs on a pay period.
It cant be good for employees.... you will never get used to sleeping during the day and the three night shifts are enough to muck up at least a few nights on days off
and cat in the hat.... yeah some pay for all 5 options on tests but many dont, saves money and people on stimulants get more work done and dont fall asleep on long hrs.
Not trying to justify lack of stimulant testing but this is sadly how some companys view it...... I wont name any names but there are enough of them to make me really wonder
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So... 72 hours in a 7 day period?
They should be worried about drugs... they are driving their people towards using them.
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11-29-2012, 09:45 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nelson BC
Posts: 2,032
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Being randomly tested for drugs with out cause when going for a drive is a loss of your civil liberty. You have to pull over. You ahve to blow, pee and let them swab your gums. You lose your license if you refuse - guilty by denial. Many will argue that the loss justifies the outcome, but regradless it is a loss of your liberty.
How do you feel about the government having powers to randomly test you as a PAL holder? If you don't like it then don't own a gun. How about testing before being able to use the range? Quick blow in the bag and your done - fail and you lose you license. If you don't like it don't go to the range.
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11-29-2012, 09:47 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 2,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pesky672
Really?
None?
If you get pulled over and tested its because elected representatives legislated the law rtha allowed that...the police we hire are doing it and... it is for CAUSE... not just because they pull your name out of a hat.
The suggestion that no rights are lost when ... a company goon can randomly choose to test without cause... then punish without proof of impairment or trial is ridiculous.
Rights... they are worth protecting even when they become inconvenient.
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Hey Pesky; good to see you.
Doesn't mean I agree though 
If I hit a checkstop then what was the cause? Got something against those?
__________________
1st Offense: We shoot you
2nd Offense: We shoot you
3rd Offense: We give you a mental evaluation, and then we shoot you
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11-29-2012, 09:54 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 12,078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pesky672
Really?
None?
If you get pulled over and tested its because elected representatives legislated the law rtha allowed that...the police we hire are doing it and... it is for CAUSE... not just because they pull your name out of a hat.
The suggestion that no rights are lost when ... a company goon can randomly choose to test without cause... then punish without proof of impairment or trial is ridiculous.
Rights... they are worth protecting even when they become inconvenient.
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What about the army Pesky.
Did you guys go tripsing around half cocked most of the time?
I know there is a problem in the army because I know an officer that is in charge of handling these dropouts.
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11-29-2012, 10:24 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: edmonton
Posts: 1,428
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its a slippery slope to continually erode privacy..... I see our roads can be dangerous to drive on and account for most work related injuries than actually working.....hmmmmmmm
This like some one else says pits rights and freedom against safety...... If you dont support drug tests, gun registrys, or consenting to new and more invasive information collection agendas like harpers electronic snooping bill you are labelled as a pedophile, druggie, or suspicious because you dont feel you have to register your hunting rifle, or let the government access all your electronic communications.... or have to **** in cups while at work to verify in fact that you do t do drugs.
What ever happened to judgement? If you suspect some one is stoned, drunk, hungover, you can send them for a **** test or send them home.... or grow some nuts and fire them.
and yeah.... companys should look at their scheduling ..... I would probably need drugs to pull off 24 and 4 without going insane or have some sort of easy sleep adjustment on the six and six compressed work week, ever here of 18 and 3 or 12 and 2 shifts?... or 2 days 2 nights then 4 off? or 3 days 2 nights 5 off?
looks at all the people smashing vehicles up after shift in ft mac...
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11-29-2012, 10:44 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
Those against the arbitary use of random testing are fighting it on the basis of civil liberty. They are not against improving safety but rather dislike the idea that corporations have powers that even the RCMP are not allowed. Many think it is the thin end of the wrong wedge. But if it is alright to require industry workers to be randomly tested why not hunters and gun owners. Many are uncomfortable with coke heads and drunks having the freedom of owning firearms. in fact, more people die each year in gun incidents than heavy industry, so maybe CO's should carry drug testing kits and have powers of testing. Maybe the police should have powers to knock on any PAL owners doors and test.
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Do you have any stats to back up your claim that "more people die each year in gun incidents than heavy industry"?(are you talking here in Alberta or worldwide)?
Because I'm gonna have to call BS on that.
In fact, I'm gonna just go ahead and call you a liar.
This is the standard rhetoric pot heads use when saying pot is safer than booze when the two have nothing to do with each other.
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11-29-2012, 11:28 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nelson BC
Posts: 2,032
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North America has approximately 12 gun related deaths per 100,000 of the population, which equals approximately 50,000 each year. Canada has 5:100,000 which equals about 1700. I will do a quick review of industrial deaths tomorrow but would be surprised to find 5 industrial deaths per day in Canada. If anyone has this number please throw into the mix. If i got it wrong then I will accept that I am a liar, I just can't help my self.
Suncorp cited 2 deaths in a decade attributed drug/alcohol use. Just 2. I suspect (maybe more lies) the roads leading to their plants each year killed many times more.
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11-29-2012, 11:41 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nelson BC
Posts: 2,032
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Last edited by nelsonob1; 11-29-2012 at 11:42 PM.
Reason: expanding comment
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11-30-2012, 12:26 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
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Please do not include Wiki as a source. Websites that generate information by user input are by common sense flawed.
You do recall The whole Stephen Colbert thing?
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11-30-2012, 12:37 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iron River
Posts: 5,158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brslk
This is the standard rhetoric pot heads use when saying pot is safer than booze when the two have nothing to do with each other.
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Yes because alcohol is a food group and not a drug.
2 totally different things.
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11-30-2012, 12:50 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Nelson BC
Posts: 2,032
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the wiki source is referenced to an academic text. but hey, maybe they are all liars as well. pot smoking academic type liars.
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11-30-2012, 09:35 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic_Cool
Hey Pesky; good to see you.
Doesn't mean I agree though
If I hit a checkstop then what was the cause? Got something against those? |
Thanks....good to be back.
And I know we won't agree here.... its a matter of context.
Nobody minds rights being trampled upon until they are our own.
All I can say is... I sure hope they nail anyone with trace alcohol, analgesics or anything else that might impair in their system with just as much fervour.
Best install sleep monitors as well and start reviewing everyones mental health records.... just for safety you understand.... its not because companies and government want to actually control you or anything... 
We all agree that their WCB premiums are more important than our civil rights.... so that should be no problem.
Right comrades?
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11-30-2012, 09:41 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Blackfalds
Posts: 6,965
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I know that if my life is in someone else's hands, they had better be 100% free of drugs and alcohol.
You don't mess around when someone's life is in your hands.
__________________
Trudeau and Biden sit to pee
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11-30-2012, 09:43 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelsonob1
North America has approximately 12 gun related deaths per 100,000 of the population, which equals approximately 50,000 each year. Canada has 5:100,000 which equals about 1700. I will do a quick review of industrial deaths tomorrow but would be surprised to find 5 industrial deaths per day in Canada. If anyone has this number please throw into the mix. If i got it wrong then I will accept that I am a liar, I just can't help my self.
Suncorp cited 2 deaths in a decade attributed drug/alcohol use. Just 2. I suspect (maybe more lies) the roads leading to their plants each year killed many times more.
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Exactly.
Suncorp had far more deaths attributed to folks shaving corners to improve profits than workers using intoxicants.
EVERY company does.
But...its easy to blame the worker... companies ALWAYS have and always will try to do that.
Fact is the easiest way to reduce worker deaths in Alberta would be to actually start paying the kinds of wages that people can live off of based upon a 40 hour work week.... and reducing overtime.
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11-30-2012, 09:46 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12,558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple
I know that if my life is in someone else's hands, they had better be 100% free of drugs and alcohol.
You don't mess around when someone's life is in your hands.
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Do you drive?
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11-30-2012, 09:48 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Blackfalds
Posts: 6,965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pesky672
Do you drive?
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Yes I do.
And before you ask, I have never had a drink and then gotten in my car. My license requires I have no alcohol in my system when I drive
__________________
Trudeau and Biden sit to pee
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11-30-2012, 11:15 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: calgary
Posts: 860
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I dont have problem giving out my rights for a better workplace. Nobody also wants to send their family member or friends to work with some drug addicts on place where the response time for police is about 1 hour.
The irony of it all is we cry blood or foul when convicted criminal, refugees, immigrants, demands for this same rights.
All companies are about their bottomline or they will not be in business. If they pay me on what I deserve then why not.
__________________
“It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, who is poor.”
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11-30-2012, 11:19 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,739
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I think I might change my position on this subject. Just watched Fubar II last night. Now in favour of daily drug tests.
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