Number ofTags Issued to Outfitters Still Exceed Tags Issued to Residents

[last minute]

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by Ranger CS

Thanks for the information Walking Buffalo. This is truly a sad situation. I assume that the Alberta Game Policy Advisory Committee is well represented by members of APOS who are self serving and determined ensure that whatever new policy recommendations come from the Advisory Committee will strongly favor outfitters. Do you know who is actually sitting on this committee

That dang APOS again eh?

http://aep.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife/...msRef-2015.pdf

Do you see APOS on the member list?

This looks like a fisheries board. I can't find the game policy board info.

[West O'5]

Yes,reduce outfitter tags,because 95% of tags being reserved for residents isn't good enough for the whiners.Take away the allocations and force their clients to draw like the rest of us,thereby making it extremely difficult for outfitters to book clients or operate a viable business or attend trade shows in the USA at a substantial cost/investment.
Love to hear suggestions as to who is gonna foot the bill to compensate outfitters for the 10s of thousands of dollar$ each they have invested in buying/trading allocations in order to operate?
ie;....it's not uncommon for an outfitter to pay say $25K for 3 moose allocations so he can offer hunts that pay $7500.Pay the guide,pay the cook,groceries for week,fuel,travel to USA hunt shows,hunt show booth @ upwards of $1000/weekend,gamble that you will book hunts there,tens of thousands invested in equipment to pull off a quality experience hunt,quads,horses,wall tents,......not much left of that $7500 at the end of the week to pay off 10year loan secured to buy allocations in the first place.
Anybody that thinks outfitting is a lucrative business is sadly mistaken....as mentioned in a previous post,it's barely more then a glorified hobby for most guys that do it for the love of the hunt and have found a way to spend more time outdoors while scratching a meager paycheck out of it.
More power to'em I say.
The hunting opportunities available to AB residents is almost unequalled anywhere in North America and better then 95% of other states/provinces....quit whining and enjoy.

[Opa]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Yes,reduce outfitter tags,because 95% of tags being reserved for residents isn't good enough for the whiners.Take away the allocations and force their clients to draw like the rest of us,thereby making it extremely difficult for outfitters to book clients or operate a viable business or attend trade shows in the USA at a substantial cost/investment.
Love to hear suggestions as to who is gonna foot the bill to compensate outfitters for the 10s of thousands of dollar$ each they have invested in buying/trading allocations in order to operate?
ie;....it's not uncommon for an outfitter to pay say $25K for 3 moose allocations so he can offer hunts that pay $7500.Pay the guide,pay the cook,groceries for week,fuel,travel to USA hunt shows,hunt show booth @ upwards of $1000/weekend,gamble that you will book hunts there,tens of thousands invested in equipment to pull off a quality experience hunt,quads,horses,wall tents,......not much left of that $7500 at the end of the week to pay off 10year loan secured to buy allocations in the first place.
Anybody that thinks outfitting is a lucrative business is sadly mistaken....as mentioned in a previous post,it's barely more then a glorified hobby for most guys that do it for the love of the hunt and have found a way to spend more time outdoors while scratching a meager paycheck out of it.
More power to'em I say.
The hunting opportunities available to AB residents is almost unequalled anywhere in North America and better then 95% of other states/provinces....quit whining and enjoy.

What about buddy who spent $1 mil or more on equipment that he had work for, employing people, had the rules change, with his costs drastically increasing as a result of unforeseen legislation. The equipment is now parked on his lot or at Ritchie's, where he will no doubt take a lickin'. As you put it, "it's barely more than a glorified hobby for most guys". When was the last time that you made money or expected to do so from your hobby(ies)? Boo hoo for the outfitter - business is business, and we all have to adjust our lives accordingly to new situations, particularly when changes are mandated by government. Democracy at its finest!!!!!

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Yes,reduce outfitter tags,because 95% of tags being reserved for residents isn't good enough for the whiners.Take away the allocations and force their clients to draw like the rest of us,thereby making it extremely difficult for outfitters to book clients or operate a viable business or attend trade shows in the USA at a substantial cost/investment.
Love to hear suggestions as to who is gonna foot the bill to compensate outfitters for the 10s of thousands of dollar$ each they have invested in buying/trading allocations in order to operate?
ie;....it's not uncommon for an outfitter to pay say $25K for 3 moose allocations so he can offer hunts that pay $7500.Pay the guide,pay the cook,groceries for week,fuel,travel to USA hunt shows,hunt show booth @ upwards of $1000/weekend,gamble that you will book hunts there,tens of thousands invested in equipment to pull off a quality experience hunt,quads,horses,wall tents,......not much left of that $7500 at the end of the week to pay off 10year loan secured to buy allocations in the first place.
Anybody that thinks outfitting is a lucrative business is sadly mistaken....as mentioned in a previous post,it's barely more then a glorified hobby for most guys that do it for the love of the hunt and have found a way to spend more time outdoors while scratching a meager paycheck out of it.
More power to'em I say.
The hunting opportunities available to AB residents is almost unequalled anywhere in North America and better then 95% of other states/provinces....quit whining and enjoy.

If you pay that much for an allocation buying from another outfitter....it ain my problem . If I buy a restaurant for too much money and can't make a go of it....that's my problem not yours.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Yes,reduce outfitter tags,because 95% of tags being reserved for residents isn't good enough for the whiners.Take away the allocations and force their clients to draw like the rest of us,thereby making it extremely difficult for outfitters to book clients or operate a viable business or attend trade shows in the USA at a substantial cost/investment.
Love to hear suggestions as to who is gonna foot the bill to compensate outfitters for the 10s of thousands of dollar$ each they have invested in buying/trading allocations in order to operate?
ie;....it's not uncommon for an outfitter to pay say $25K for 3 moose allocations so he can offer hunts that pay $7500.Pay the guide,pay the cook,groceries for week,fuel,travel to USA hunt shows,hunt show booth @ upwards of $1000/weekend,gamble that you will book hunts there,tens of thousands invested in equipment to pull off a quality experience hunt,quads,horses,wall tents,......not much left of that $7500 at the end of the week to pay off 10year loan secured to buy allocations in the first place.
Anybody that thinks outfitting is a lucrative business is sadly mistaken....as mentioned in a previous post,it's barely more then a glorified hobby for most guys that do it for the love of the hunt and have found a way to spend more time outdoors while scratching a meager paycheck out of it.
More power to'em I say.
The hunting opportunities available to AB residents is almost unequalled anywhere in North America and better then 95% of other states/provinces....quit whining and enjoy.

In one statement you ask who is going to compensate them for thousands of lost dollars and then you state they make nearly nothing.... Which is it?

If they really loved hunting, and the money isn't very good, why don't they give it up and dedicate their time to their own personal hunting?

Don't try to convince us that the outfitter are not making a substantial amount of money at the expense of hunting opportunities for tax paying resident.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Yes,reduce outfitter tags,because 95% of tags being reserved for residents isn't good enough for the whiners.Take away the allocations and force their clients to draw like the rest of us,thereby making it extremely difficult for outfitters to book clients or operate a viable business or attend trade shows in the USA at a substantial cost/investment.
Love to hear suggestions as to who is gonna foot the bill to compensate outfitters for the 10s of thousands of dollar$ each they have invested in buying/trading allocations in order to operate?
ie;....it's not uncommon for an outfitter to pay say $25K for 3 moose allocations so he can offer hunts that pay $7500.Pay the guide,pay the cook,groceries for week,fuel,travel to USA hunt shows,hunt show booth @ upwards of $1000/weekend,gamble that you will book hunts there,tens of thousands invested in equipment to pull off a quality experience hunt,quads,horses,wall tents,......not much left of that $7500 at the end of the week to pay off 10year loan secured to buy allocations in the first place.
Anybody that thinks outfitting is a lucrative business is sadly mistaken....as mentioned in a previous post,it's barely more then a glorified hobby for most guys that do it for the love of the hunt and have found a way to spend more time outdoors while scratching a meager paycheck out of it.
More power to'em I say.
The hunting opportunities available to AB residents is almost unequalled anywhere in North America and better then 95% of other states/provinces....quit whining and enjoy.

Two sides to the this story comrade!

[elkhunter11]

Outfitting is a business, and it is dependent on game populations that fluctuate , and in some cases fall below levels that allow a sustainable harvest. When the pronghorn population crashed several years ago, why do you suppose that the season wasn't closed as it should have been? Because closing the season would have resulted in lost profits for the outfitters, it's really that simple. While residents were issued a few tags as a token,(resident tags cut by 90%), the outfitter allocations were not reduced at all. That year the outfitters held around 40% of the pronghorn tags in Alberta, which is absolutely ridiculous.

[dshaw]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Outfitting is a business, and it is dependent on game populations that fluctuate , and in some cases fall below levels that allow a sustainable harvest. When the pronghorn population crashed several years ago, why do you suppose that the season wasn't closed as it should have been? Because closing the season would have resulted in lost profits for the outfitters, it's really that simple. While residents were issued a few tags as a token,(resident tags cut by 90%), the outfitter allocations were not reduced at all. That year the outfitters held around 40% of the pronghorn tags in Alberta, which is absolutely ridiculous.

Agreed, all parties should have to adjust tag allotments when numbers are low in my opinion. As for the statement above about outfitters being compensated for lost tags the same can be said for residents. I bought a quad and sled to hunt elk in 400 and now next year it will be closed to them. Who will compensate me? Nobody thats who and thats fine with me, my choice. It was the outfitters choice to spend that money and when times are tougher thats just business.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by dshaw

Agreed, all parties should have to adjust tag allotments when numbers are low in my opinion. As for the statement above about outfitters being compensated for lost tags the same can be said for residents. I bought a quad and sled to hunt elk in 400 and now next year it will be closed to them. Who will compensate me? Nobody thats who and thats fine with me, my choice. It was the outfitters choice to spend that money and when times are tougher thats just business.

And who is going to compensate the ATV dealers when less people buy them due to new restrictions? How about the people selling atv accessories and trailers? Hunters will buy less equipment when the resident hunting opportunity is reduced, so who will compensate the people selling hunting gear?
How about these dealers and the outfitters giving their heads a shake and realizing that there are risks in business. If they lose business and profits as a result of regulation changes, instead of whining, they should look around them and see that many industries are losing profits, and many people have lost the jobs that pay to feed their families.

[last minute]

Almost 1500 looks and only 39 response’s tells me not to many care what the outfitters are up to can’t blame them happy hunting

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by last minute

Almost 1500 looks and only 39 response’s tells me not to many care what the outfitters are up to can’t blame them happy hunting

Perhaps most readers are likely too disgusted to even post? Or they simply realize that this is all about money, and no matter how they respond, the corrupt government won't make any changes?

[last minute]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Perhaps most readers are likely too disgusted to even post? Or they simply realize that this is all about money, and no matter how they respond, the government won't make any changes?

hum ok

[silver lab]

Originally Posted by last minute

Almost 1500 looks and only 39 response’s tells me not to many care what the outfitters are up to can’t blame them happy hunting

In my case its better not to say anything vs whats on my mind. Because i would be kicked off this site.

[last minute]

In my case its better not to say anything vs whats on my mind. Because i would be kicked off this site.

OK hum i guess i cant blame you

[Salavee]

.. and if they spend a hoarde of money on equipment and operating costs, which side of the ledger does all that go on ? Deductible Expenses would be my guess. Kinda nice . Wish we could do only a fraction.

[cowboyhunter]

Originally Posted by silver lab

In my case its better not to say anything vs whats on my mind. Because i would be kicked off this site.

Excactly ! I feel the same but this year I may have to follow a few outfitters around . Can't beat em join em. No laws about sighting guns in a lot! Maybe time for us to start walking sky lines and coyote hunting every day!

[Ranger CS]

Yes,reduce outfitter tags,because 95% of tags being reserved for residents isn't good enough for the whiners


You totally miss my point. Outfitters are getting more than 50% of the tags issued in some WMUs.

If being unhappy with this unfair distribution makes me a whiner, I am proud to be a whiner.

[diamond k]

I have hunted and been guided in several States and provinces and in my opinion Alberta is the worst most broken system in North America. Only in Alberta does the group who are bound by the regulations have so much influence in the creation of the rules they operate under. APOS is a joke and the current situation inside APOS is even more pathetic. A new secretary who somehow gained enough control to fire the few reasonable voices in the organization an appoint " friends " into these positions just shows how broken it is. I have written to our current minister to explain my disgust and encourage others to do the same.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by diamond k

I have hunted and been guided in several States and provinces and in my opinion Alberta is the worst most broken system in North America. Only in Alberta does the group who are bound by the regulations have so much influence in the creation of the rules they operate under. APOS is a joke and the current situation inside APOS is even more pathetic. A new secretary who somehow gained enough control to fire the few reasonable voices in the organization an appoint " friends " into these positions just shows how broken it is. I have written to our current minister to explain my disgust and encourage others to do the same.

In a nutshell! Well said.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by diamond k

I have hunted and been guided in several States and provinces and in my opinion Alberta is the worst most broken system in North America. Only in Alberta does the group who are bound by the regulations have so much influence in the creation of the rules they operate under. APOS is a joke and the current situation inside APOS is even more pathetic. A new secretary who somehow gained enough control to fire the few reasonable voices in the organization an appoint " friends " into these positions just shows how broken it is. I have written to our current minister to explain my disgust and encourage others to do the same.

Summed up quite well. With a corrupt leadership, the organization has no chance of ever making the changes that it needs to in order to be credible.

[Deer Hunter]

Why are you worried about their leadership?
I'd be more concerned about the lack of resident hunter represented leadership. Which is why the outfitter policy has gone unenforced for so long creating this inequity.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Why are you worried about their leadership?
I'd be more concerned about the lack of resident hunter represented leadership. Which is why the outfitter policy has gone unenforced for so long creating this inequity.

If we resident hunters have no say, our only hope is that APOS is honest , but with their leadership being corrupt, we have no hope.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If we resident hunters have no say, our only hope is that APOS is honest , but with their leadership being corrupt, we have no hope.

If that's your angle, we have no hope. Better come to terms with that so that you can stand up to your grandkids and tell them how we enabled the distruction of this historic culture.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

If that's your angle, we have no hope. Better come to terms with that so that you can stand up to your grandkids and tell them how we enabled the distruction of this historic culture.

Our only real hope would be an AEP that cares about Albertans, but with our current provincial government, that is not going to happen. I have sent letters to the previous minister as well as the current one, but they don't appear to be interested in how Alberta residents feel.

[silver lab]

Originally Posted by cowboyhunter

Excactly ! I feel the same but this year I may have to follow a few outfitters around . Can't beat em join em. No laws about sighting guns in a lot! Maybe time for us to start walking sky lines and coyote hunting every day!

Haha!

[Hooter]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Perhaps most readers are likely too disgusted to even post? Or they simply realize that this is all about money, and no matter how they respond, the corrupt government won't make any changes?

This sums it up pretty nicely for me!!

[Salavee]

Obviously most hunters, at least on this site, seem pretty fed up with the current Big Game/Angling/ allotment/management system. Maybe now is the time to form up some type of stand-alone organization to assure the major stakeholders in this game (Alberta resident Hunters /Anglers) have a voice that would be heard. Using the APOS example, all those purchasing hunting licenses would fund this Org. by way of a mandatory small add-on fee when purchasing licenses - plus of course, an additional annual subsidy from our pro-active Prov Gov't.
I believe the numbers for this type of initiative are there now. Some day, when we get peed on a bit more, it will happen. Until then, we can expect more hot air, BS and Rabbit tracks from those currently running the show.
If this is a dream, so be it. I'm going back to sleep.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Perhaps most readers are likely too disgusted to even post? Or they simply realize that this is all about money, and no matter how they respond, the corrupt government won't make any changes?

[greenwood1]

APOS has a DAO with the Alberta Government. In my opinion they have abused and botched up the original intent of the DAO. It should be cancelled and AEP should be back managing Outfitters not the other way around. The tail is definitely wagging the dog.

Also with respect to compensation for nonresident permits that may be cancelled, (yes including sheep) when these permits were issued it specifically was clear that any permits could be cancelled due to resource management or imbalance in the ratio of nonresident to resident opportunity. So there should be no compensation at all in my opinion.

If the current Government has the cahunnas to get control back into this system.