Semi-auto shotguns

[ABwhitetail]

Sheep, I must be simple minded, because when I read your post.....I thought you were right on point as to making a suggestion in terms of recoil of the Super Black Eagle to answer M70's origionall question....didn't look any further into it than that.....

Oh well, Whadda ya going to do????

So, someone tell me why a 3.5" shell would be a bad thing?

Because they cost a lot and do have heavy recoil.

If your primarily doing pass shooting wouldn't the extra pellets help?

Give the man a cupie doll! Most people think of a pattern as what they shoot on a static piece of paper....a patterning target! This is fine if the birds you are shooting at are also static. In my limited waterfowl experience and maybe DUK can confirm this but most often the birds are moving. The shot string is equally if not more important than the pattern you see on that paper....especially with pass shooting. Not all of the shot reaches the bird at the same time as the bird moves through the pattern and only a percentage of the pattern you see on paper actually hits the bird as it flies through the pattern. There are essentially two patterns. As most steel shooters use a larger shot size than they did with lead, they are already faced with less pellets and as more steel pellets are often required for an immediate kill.....getting the maximum number of pellets in the kill zone is critical. As the range increases...pattern diameter and string increase in size....thus the need for more pellets.

One of the ethical outdoor writers that I spoke of is a now deceased southern gentleman by the name of Bob Brister. Bob wrote the definitive book on shotgunning called Shotgunning....The Art and Science. He did some of the first work on shot stringing and his work is as pertinent today as it was in 1976 when he wrote the book. Sadly, so many of the self proclaimed experts today have no understanding of patterning and shot string even some 30 years later. I had the good fortune to meet and shoot with Bob about 15 years ago and between the knowledge he shared with me in Texas and after studying his book until I've nearly wore the pages out, I think I can say that I at least have a rudimentary understanding of patterns and why larger shells offer an advantage is some circumstances.

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

obviously you missed a few Grade 12 physics classes and isn't that what we were talking about????????

Sheephunter; Your belligerence is tolerable, but now you're insulting my education? Actually, Physics was part of my curiculum in college; As was shooting on the MI State Trap & Skeet team. What's your claim to fame?

Guest star on the red fisher show???

I know you have it in for me because of remarks I've made in the past that offended you, but you don't have to try to dispute every single thing I type. If you want to try to prove me wrong, let's get together for a few rounds of sporting clays... I'll even let you shoot 3.5" shells if the range allows it. We'll see who's laughing at the end of the day!!

You might get a kick out of me, but you don't know me. Those who do know me, and are reading this, are laughing at you!!!

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

This just in!!!!

Size does matter!!!

your wife just filled ya in on that, eh Froggie? My condolences LOL

What's your claim to fame?

Never actually had an interest in fame......just in learning as much as I can about hunting and shooting and listening to those that actually know what they are talking about instead of talking louder and sniping at them in an attenpt to raise my own level of fame. By the looks of things my education served me better. Without putting words in my mouth and insulting outdoor writers.....can you tell me the flaw in my comments about shot string and pattern and how they relate to larger payloads delivered at velocities equal to those of smaller payloads? At longer ranges are you not indeed getting more pellets into the kill zone? Is that not a better thing?

You may well be a better shot than me....have hunted more waterfowl and even won the measuring contest but your fame doesn't trump my facts no matter how loudly you speak. This has nothing to do with what you or I have done...it's got to do with facts....and those my friend are on my side.

And how would getting together for a few rounds of sporting clays prove me wrong. I never knew this thread was about who was the better shot. Let's put an end to it now if it will help you feel better about yourself. You are the better shot! Now how does that relate to this thread??????

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by ABDUKNUT

Sheephunter; Your belligerence is tolerable, but now you're insulting my education? Actually, Physics was part of my curiculum in college; As was shooting on the MI State Trap & Skeet team. What's your claim to fame?

Guest star on the red fisher show???

I know you have it in for me because of remarks I've made in the past that offended you, but you don't have to try to dispute every single thing I type. If you want to try to prove me wrong, let's get together for a few rounds of sporting clays... I'll even let you shoot 3.5" shells if the range allows it. We'll see who's laughing at the end of the day!!

You might get a kick out of me, but you don't know me. Those who do know me, and are reading this, are laughing at you!!!

I hear ya ABDUK.... I have no time for belligerent insulting language like:

" I'm only 30 and I've killed more birds in my young life than you will ever see in yours... Advice like your REALLY makes me wonder what goes through some guys' heads. .. Join the local skeet club and find somebody who KNOWS WHAT THEY are talking about and hopefully you can get some help."

Oh wait, that was you saying that... hmmm three fingers pointing back.
You have now had the ritual heated argument with Sheep... Your apprenticeship is now complete, young Jedi

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by Jamie

So, someone tell me why a 3.5" shell would be a bad thing

Cant count how many hours I've spent with guys of all ages trying to correct bad shooting habits. A good number of these guys had the 'latest' autos and biggest shells, and couldn't understand why they geese they were shooting at escaped unscathed.

The 12g is an extremely powerfull firearm, and the recoil approaches the big-bore rifles.... I don't know many average Joe hunters who can decently shoot a .458 Win Mag, so why would you think they can handle the recoil of a mag load of powder in a 3.5" shotgun shell? It's all about getting down on the stock and staying with the target. If you flinch, close your eyes or lift your head, or have a tender cheek from recoil, you are NOT going to shoot well, period. There's a ton of guys out there who could have turned into very good shotgunners, had they not ruined their technique and developed incorrigible habits with too much shotgun.

The market hunters of days gone by shot nothing but the cheapest light trap loads becuase they were the cheapest available. They were there to kill birds and make money. They got by and shoot hundreds of birds a day with as little costly firepower as possible. And, they made up for it by refining their hunting techniques. I've personally tested the killing power of 2.75" 1 and 1/8th oz steel loads in a good shotgun/choke, pass shooting waterfowl, and trust me, they are deadly out to... well, way too far to type here, but it's farther than anybody should really be shooting.

I know you have it in for me because of remarks I've made in the past that offended you, but you don't have to try to dispute every single thing I type.

I couldn't agree more. Stop making false statements and racist remarks and I won't have to comment. For the record, there have been lots of things you said that I've never had an issue with but when you provide false information on this board or chose to denegrate people of other races or take shots at ethical hunters that do all they can to promote the great heritage of hunting...ya....you'll hear from me. I know this will be a blow to your ego....but it's got nothing to do with you...just your words.

Nice attempt to deflect the facts DUK but let's get back to where we started.....I ask again......

Can you tell me the flaw in my comments about shot string and pattern and how they relate to larger payloads delivered at velocities equal to those of smaller payloads? At longer ranges are you not indeed getting more pellets into the kill zone? Is that not a better thing?

[Jamie]

Ok, so for bad things we have....

More Kick???
More expense???
Would the kick really come into play with a semi Auto?
Personally I shot 3.5 last year and didn't notice much of a difference in kick or in cost. Not saying its not there, but I don't recall it.

As for good things
They are more effective for killing.
So why not if you can handle the $$$ and the bit of extra kick?

ABDUKNUT, you still shoot trap? Where do you shoot sporting clays at?

It ain't the shooting I need help with.. Its the decoying.

Jamie

So why not if you can handle the $$$ and the bit of extra kick?

No reason at all! For those that truly understand shot string...the advantages at longer ranges are very obvious.

And you are correct about autos reducng the recoil to a manageable level but DUK was also correct about 3.5s being too much for some shooters just as magnum big bores are too much for some shooters.

[ABDUKNUT]

Re-read my last post and think about it.

Your physics are sound, but the fact remains, THAT pattern has to hit the target. The pellet energy is there... A #2 shot pellet travelling at 1500 fps is still a #2 pellet @ 1500 fps, no matter what size shell it was loaded into. 2 pellets in the ass is not going to take down an 10lb goose, no matter what the distance is, or what planet your on.

There have been a ton of studies done, (ie CONSEP Lethality Table) I'm sure you are familiar with many of them, I'll give you that credit. Some I agree with, some I don't. The fact is, it only takes a few pellets to kill a duck or goose, IF THOSE PELLETS reach the head/neck.

Many factors affect shot patterns. A lot of 'as is' factory guns don't shoot decent patterns... If they did, I'm sure you'd see a lot of Mossberg 500 pumps at the Olympics... But you don't, do ya? I'm sure in your world, everybody at Beijing next year will be shooting an Encore with a blackpowder barrel, but sorry...

FYI, most popular, factory 12g's pattern HORRIBLY with 3.5" steel, especially BB and BBB... and unfortunately, those are currently some of the more popular combos.

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by Jamie

ain't the shooting I need help with.. Its the decoying.

I'd be happy to help. Feel free to PM me. If you can make it out to GP this Fall, I could surely give you some tips.

[Jamie]

Ab... Now you are talking about different guns, not shells.

Of course each gun patterns differently, its up to the responsible hunter to figure out his gun before hitting the fields. A little time on the pattern board never hurt anyone.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but cant you get different choke tubes that will help correct wayward patterns? (Brilly rings a bell)

Jamie
BTW, do you still shoot trap?

[Jamie]

Thanks for the offer, but unfortunatly I wont be up north till Nov this year. Perhaps next year if the offer is still open.

Thanks
Jamie

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Thanks for the offer, but unfortunatly I wont be up north till Nov this year. Perhaps next year if the offer is still open.

Thanks
Jamie

Jamie,
I'm here in October now, and I'll take you out and we'll go hammer down some ducks and geese in the blinds.....my treat....

[Jamie]

Rack, dont tease.. You have been promising for 2 years now


We sure will get out this year!
I cant wait for it to open. This hot weather is starting to tic me off. I want a cold crisp morning.

Jamie

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by Jamie

This hot weather is starting to tic me off. I want a cold crisp morning.

Jamie

Personally, I'm hoping I can hunt straight though till Nov in shorts and flip-flops, like I did 2 years ago!

Totally agree with what you are saying DUK but more pellets means more chance of getting that one or two pellets in the head and neck at longer ranges. As the range increases so too does the length of the shot string and the diameter of the pattern and more shot gives you a better chance at a kill. Several body pellets can be as lethal as head neck shot too. Big loads are no replacement for accuracy but at longer ranges they do increase your odds of getting that single pellet in the head or neck even with a perfectly placed shot. We are not talking about a single projectile here. There is no consistency to where all those pellets land other than it's in a fairly consistent pattern. At longer ranges, a well placed shot may not result in a head or neck shot.

Everyone talks about all the kills they've made with lighter payloads but what cannot be measured is all the birds that get away that would have died with a heavier payload.

Some shotguns don't pattern all kinds of shot well. You need to pattern each load out of your gun. My Benelli shoots 3.5s like a champ.

[Unregistered user]

Nice thing about a gun with 3.5" chamber, you have more ammo choices.

[ABDUKNUT]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

Nice thing about a gun with 3.5" chamber, you have more ammo choices.

Hey pal, I appreciate your sense of convenience, but it's not advisable to switch between different loads. A slight change in speed will throw your shooting off considerably, a lot more than you think it might. You simply cannot, say, jump around from a box of 1350fps to 1450fps and expect to have any consitency. That's why I only hunt with 1550 fps. It works the best with my shooting style.

Find something that patterns well, practice, and stick with it.

A slight change in speed will throw your shooting off considerably, a lot more than you think it might. You simply cannot, say, jump around from a box of 1350fps to 1450fps and expect to have any consitency.

I couldn't agree more.... Thankfully there are loads of ammo choices in the 2.75, 3 and 3.5" range that all offer the same velocities. Not difficult to switch between them at all.

[ABDUKNUT]

The problem here is, the speed advertised on the box is not always the true speed of the load (no secret here). By staying with one particular brand and load, you can expect reasonable consitency, from box to box. With some of the cheaper products, I've actually noticed a slight speed difference when I crack into a new case. On clays, and also when I clean my birds. I've always been interested in cleaning every bird I shoot carefully, to actually see where my pellets hit.

Sadly muzzle velocity means little 40 yards out. So even by changing shot sizes your downrange velocity changes greatly from shot size to shot size. Changing from #2 to BB has a much greater effect on velocity at 40 yards than the inconsistencies of advertised muzzle velocity will ever have.

[ABDUKNUT]

I swear, if I said the sky was blue, you'd say it's green...

In the shooting sports, the smallest details sometimes seperate winners from losers. Just like in the hunting world, 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the trophies... or something like that, we've all heard the expression.

I know what works for me, and you obviously don't know what works for you, yet. You're the type of hunter that buys a new shotgun every year and never really learns how to shoot it. You take 2 boxes of shells to kill 8 ducks... if you've ever even killed a limit I'd be surprised. Unless you were guided.

Anyways, we've strayed far enough off topic from the original question. It's pointless to go any further. Go argue with somebody else.

Man DUK, take a pill. I was just pointing out some facts that many shooters are unaware of. If you notice, I actually agreed with you last couple posts and just added further information to them.

You sure seem to know a lot about me for never having spent any time in the field with me. I may not enjoy the fame that you do in waterfowl and skeet circles but rest assured that I can hold my own in an unguided goose pit or duck blind. So please don't tell me what type of hunter I am because you don't have a clue but I guess that hasn't stopped you in the past so not sure why it would now.

I've been hunting birds as long as you've been alive so I'd say in those 30 odd years I've learned a thing or two and yes, shot a limit or two. The difference is that I've taken the time to stop and listen to those that knew things I didn't. Like some on this board I wasn't born knowing it all and I'm still a long ways from knowing much but what I do know...I know. And what I don't know I don't talk about.

[Rugersingle]

Well there ya go.. here I thought we were being asked for suggestions, information, likes/dislikes to help him make a choice on a new gun. Out of two pages of posts there are maybe six?? that address his original questions.

Nice discussion fellas but when do you get to the parts that he asked about?

I tried in the beginning...still like the Benelli and it does tame those heavy loads that M70 talked about wanting to shoot more of. That recoil reduction stock and gel pad work well together. The Winchester and Beretta are good choices too.

[packhuntr]

ABDUKNUT, you said in an earlier post here that Winchester pumps should be avoided at all costs, why is that??

keep a strain on er.

[Rugersingle]

I see that most of the new guns come with the adjustable stock angle spacers and the benelli's have the gel comb. Sheep, how well do these options work on your gun? do the spacers allow for enough adjustment and have you tried any of the higher cheek pads?