Tolerance's ?

[elkhunter11]

Furtherfore, the Vanguard is not of the superior quality as the Mark V.

Having owned both the Vanguard and the Mark V,I never considered the Mark V to be of superior quality,compared to other rifles in the same price range.On the other hand,I find the Vanguard to offer very good value for the price.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by flint

Well there is only one Model, and that is the Mark V. There are 9 lugs on all Model V's that are chambered for all magnum cartridges, except for the 240 Wby. The 240 Wby and all other standard cartridges in the Model V have 6 lugs. If your going to purchase a 7mm Weaherby Magnum, I suggest not to get it in the Vanguard, it only comes in a 24 inch barrel, therefore; you will not receive top volicity. Furtherfore, the Vanguard is not of the superior quality as the Mark V. If money is an issue, purchase a Remington Sendero in a 7mm Remington Magnum.

I think that weatherby does'nt even make vangaurds chambered in the 7mm wby mag??? i think the only wby cartridges in vanguards are the 300 and 257 wby???

[crawfy]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

I think that weatherby does'nt even make vangaurds chambered in the 7mm wby mag??? i think the only wby cartridges in vanguards are the 300 and 257 wby???

From what I see you can get vanguards in several weatherby cartridges now.

[The cooter]

So what about the tolerance? Why, if it to be true would only 7 of 9 bear load mass production,Poor Qc program,Or just plain old lack of tolerance? It dosen't make sense to have 7 of 9 lugs working? What is the point of the two that aren't making contact?

[crawfy]

Originally Posted by The cooter

So what about the tolerance? Why, if it to be true would only 7 of 9 bear load mass production,Poor Qc program,Or just plain old lack of tolerance? It dosen't make sense to have 7 of 9 lugs working? What is the point of the two that aren't making contact?

Cooter let's try this maybe it lowers the bolt lift. 54 degrees on weatherby.

[elkhunter11]

Cooter let's try this maybe it lowers the bolt lift. 54 degrees on weatherby.

You can do the same with three locking lugs,only they are easier to lap.

[noneck180]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You can do the same with three locking lugs,only they are easier to lap.

Who makes a 54 degree 3 locking lug bolt?

[crawfy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You can do the same with three locking lugs,only they are easier to lap.

What other factory gun with three lugs has a 54 degree bolt throw.

[The cooter]

Originally Posted by crawfy

Cooter let's try this maybe it lowers the bolt lift. 54 degrees on weatherby.

So thats how they do it? Possibly?

[elkhunter11]

What other factory gun with three lugs has a 54 degree bolt throw.

Browning ,Sako,and Cooper to name a few,all have bolt throws in the 60 degree and under range.It really doesn't matter whether you use one row of three lugs,or three rows of three lugs.Actually,to obtain maximum overlap between the lugs and receiver,you need 60 degrees with either system.Using less than 60 degrees sacrifices some overlap,and some strength.Of course,you do need a small amount of clearance between the bolt lugs and the action lugs to operate the bolt,so the optimum angle is slightly less than 60 degrees.

[Pathfinder76]

You can add Jarrets 3 lug action to the mix as well.

Give me two lugs and a 90 degree lift any day.

[crawfy]

Yes EH11 but still I think that is the reason for the 9 lugs is to lower bolt throw to 54 if that is what you are looking for in a rifle and as I said in a factory rifle not custom. The rest of the factory rifles you mentioned still have a 60 degree bolt throw.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by crawfy

Yes EH11 but still I think that is the reason for the 9 lugs is to lower bolt throw to 54 if that is what you are looking for in a rifle and as I said in a factory rifle not custom. The rest of the factory rifles you mentioned still have a 60 degree bolt throw.

You believe there is a discernable difference between a 60 and 54 degree throw?! Really? In the real world?

[noneck180]

In the "Real World" would you rather be paid..$54 an hour or $60 an hour?? or 54 years old or 60 years old...there is a difference..

[elkhunter11]

In the "Real World" would you rather be paid..$54 an hour or $60 an hour?? or 54 years old or 60 years old...there is a difference..

And in the real world,going to a 54 degree bolt throw forces you to reduce the lug overlap which reduces the bearing area,which results in a slight loss in strength.

[PoppaW]

Originally Posted by The cooter

So what about the tolerance? Why, if it to be true would only 7 of 9 bear load mass production,Poor Qc program,Or just plain old lack of tolerance? It dosen't make sense to have 7 of 9 lugs working? What is the point of the two that aren't making contact?

So take a new Rem or Win or Ruger and see how much of the 2 lugs are in contact. If you get a bad one it may be only 1 lug and part of the other. Either way you lap if accuracy is affected. All guns have these issues and the # of lugs should not be confused with bearing surface area. The # of lugs should not mean a gun is stronger as more comes into it than # of lugs. I would take a Weatherby or a Ruger any day over Rem or Win or Browning, for strength.

9 lugs is not a gimmick. It makes for a bolt that has low lift. 54 degrees. It also makes for a bolt that is naturally smooth as it has no protruding lugs. Put a hone to a Weatherby action and I think its the slickest action out there, in about 5 minutes. Other actions have used this 9 lug design in the past, like the Browning BBR. Some very large guns like artillery pieces use a similar design for lockup and the military doesn't consider this gimmicky. They like strength.

[elkhunter11]

9 lugs is not a gimmick. It makes for a bolt that has low lift. 54 degrees.

Nine lugs is simply three rows of three lugs,and with three lugs you can easily make an action with a 54 degree bolt throw.However,most manufacturers of actions with three lugs choose to use a 60 degree bolt throw to obtain as much lug overlap as possible,since it provides the most strength.I personally would rather have the extra bearing area,instead of six less degrees of bolt throw.
As far as the value of nine lugs is concerned,why don't any of the the top end custom actions use nine lugs?Why do the top benchrest action makers avoid nine lugs?After all ,they are the people that want the truest, most rigid action.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by PoppaW

I would take a Weatherby or a Ruger any day over Rem or Win or Browning, for strength.

Based on what? I'm curious.

[leo]

Originally Posted by PoppaW

.

9 lugs is not a gimmick. It makes for a bolt that has low lift. 54 degrees. It also makes for a bolt that is naturally smooth as it has no protruding lugs. Put a hone to a Weatherby action and I think its the slickest action out there, in about 5 minutes.

Smoothest out of the box action I have ever seen (and owned) was a Voere Titan II. 3 lug bolt and smoother than any weatherby I have ever layed hands on. Rifle shot better than any Weatherby I ever layed hands on, It was chambered to 300 Weatherby

[crawfy]

Originally Posted by 209x50

You believe there is a discernable difference between a 60 and 54 degree throw?! Really? In the real world?

Do not believe i said that anywhere, somewhere back a few posts Cooter asked a question about 7-9 lugs and i believe i said that i thought it was to reduce bolt throw hence the 54 degrees on a Weatherby. Thats it thats all.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by noneck180

In the "Real World" would you rather be paid..$54 an hour or $60 an hour?? or 54 years old or 60 years old...there is a difference..

And this brialliant observation has what to do with bolt lift? I really wonder how much you drink some nights.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by crawfy

Do not believe i said that anywhere, somewhere back a few posts Cooter asked a question about 7-9 lugs and i believe i said that i thought it was to reduce bolt throw hence the 54 degrees on a Weatherby. Thats it thats all.

My mistake then, I quoted the statement below of yours and I took it to mean that 54 degrees was superior in your mind to 60 degrees.

Originally Posted by crawfy
Yes EH11 but still I think that is the reason for the 9 lugs is to lower bolt throw to 54 if that is what you are looking for in a rifle and as I said in a factory rifle not custom. The rest of the factory rifles you mentioned still have a 60 degree bolt throw.

[crawfy]

Originally Posted by 209x50

My mistake then, I quoted the statement below of yours and I took it to mean that 54 degrees was superior in your mind to 60 degrees.

no chest pounding here of superiority here, just a mere suggestion on why Weatherby may have the 9 lugs. Greg

[elkhunter11]

no chest pounding here of superiority here, just a mere suggestion on why Weatherby may have the 9 lugs.

So how does having nine lugs in three rows of three lugs each, allow for a shorter bolt throw than three lugs?

[crawfy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So how does having nine lugs in three rows of three lugs each, allow for a shorter bolt throw than three lugs?

you may have a better explanation but from what I have read the bolt has less rotaion to go through to unlock. I could be wrong though maybe you could tell me how Weatherby acheives the 54 degree bolt throw.

[The cooter]

Originally Posted by crawfy

you may have a better explanation but from what I have read the bolt has less rotaion to go through to unlock. I could be wrong though maybe you could tell me how Weatherby acheives the 54 degree bolt throw.

Makes perfect sense to me! Thanks crawfy! So let me get it straight, ( 9 lugs smaller than the standard 2. more lugs less surface area = shorter rotation) Then only one question still remains about only 7-of-9 making contact?

[elkhunter11]

you may have a better explanation but from what I have read the bolt has less rotaion to go through to unlock. I could be wrong though maybe you could tell me how Weatherby acheives the 54 degree bolt throw

It's simple math.If you have three lugs on the bolt,and a matching three bearing surfaces in the action(or three rows of three of each),you have a total of six bearing surfaces.360 degrees divided by six equals 60 degrees.You need some clearance to let the bolt lugs pass through between the action lugs,so you end up sacrificing a tiny bit of bearing surface.In the case of the Weatherby Mark V,in order to have the 54 degree bolt throw,they sacrifice a little more bearing surface.So for that six degrees,you do give up some strength.It doesn't matter how many lugs you have in total,it only matters how many lugs are in one row.

[crawfy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It's simple math.If you have three lugs on the bolt,and a matching three bearing surfaces in the action(or three rows of three of each),you have a total of six bearing surfaces.360 degrees divided by six equals 60 degrees.You need some clearance to let the bolt lugs pass through between the action lugs,so you end up sacrificing a tiny bit of bearing surface.In the case of the Weatherby Mark V,in order to have the 54 degree bolt throw,they sacrifice a little more bearing surface.So for that six degrees,you do give up some strength.It doesn't matter how many lugs you have in total,it only matters how many lugs are in one row.

See I knew you had an answer, but didn't weatherby fatten up the bolt to make it stronger, maybe this was done because they new it would loose some strength but achieve the shorter bolt throw. I know my weatherby bolts are much larger than any of my other bolt action rifles.

[PoppaW]

They are fatter to be big enough to use the 378-460 size cases. The bolt is bigger and the lugs a bit shorter to give 54 degrees. As for strength I have posted all I can about that in other threads and still can't find the report I saw saying the weatherby was stronger than most. Ruger did just as good. I had a few others on a different site looking also and they remember the report and can't find it either. Until I see a bearing area on each lug from each maker and have an engineer tell me the forces involved and explain it, I won't be changing my mind or taking advise from EH11. If I am proven wrong from an independant source then I will come on here and say so.

[378 Wthrby]

Originally Posted by leo

Smoothest out of the box action I have ever seen (and owned) was a Voere Titan II. 3 lug bolt and smoother than any weatherby I have ever layed hands on. Rifle shot better than any Weatherby I ever layed hands on, It was chambered to 300 Weatherby

Sounds gimmicky to me