Anyone tried to access grazing leases in Calgary Bow Zone - Page 2

gallery · #31 08-25-2009, 02:56 AM

I also had this post in the general section. I talked to the area land agent and he was going to talk to the lease holder in my area BUT the owner can make it so dificult to access that hunting season is over. 14 days notice walking only even to retreve an animal and there is an appeal process which can take forever. The government has to step in and make it public lands. Standard rules that apply to all. WE subsidize these owners so that they can have CHEAP land to put their cattle on and when the cattle are off ALL Albertans should be able to access this land. Next problem is these leaseholders are not even putting cattle on the land....So what are they really doing with this land. No cattle No hunters OUTFITTING. This is in NE alberta so I guess the problem is province wide

blackpheasant · #32 08-25-2009, 03:48 AM

If there is no cattle on the lease let the lease holder know that you WILL be entering the lease, let him know when etc. etc., and go for it, what are they going to do charge you with trespassing on Public Land, Hmmm I wonder what a judge would think about that ?

NCC · #33 08-25-2009, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gallery

I also had this post in the general section. I talked to the area land agent and he was going to talk to the lease holder in my area BUT the owner can make it so dificult to access that hunting season is over. 14 days notice walking only even to retreve an animal and there is an appeal process which can take forever. The government has to step in and make it public lands. Standard rules that apply to all. WE subsidize these owners so that they can have CHEAP land to put their cattle on and when the cattle are off ALL Albertans should be able to access this land. Next problem is these leaseholders are not even putting cattle on the land....So what are they really doing with this land. No cattle No hunters OUTFITTING. This is in NE alberta so I guess the problem is province wide

Please explain how you are subsidizing the owners.

Matt L. · #34 08-25-2009, 09:07 AM

Since it is public land we are graciously allowing him to use for grazing or crop purposes. For a small fee.

NCC · #35 08-25-2009, 12:02 PM

Sort of like public housing. Except they can keep you out of a rented house.

Jack&7 · #36 08-25-2009, 01:59 PM

I have read this thread and the other one dealing with this issue (Can't hunt here anymore) with great interest. There are two groups: hunters and the landowner/leaseholders. Both groups have their fair share of bad apples that do screw it up for everyone whether it be the hunters that bend or break the rules and regs or the landowners/lease holders who do the same for their own benefit or that of their "friends". What it all comes down to is one thing, IMHO: greed. I want what you have or I don't want you to have what I've got.

The good thing is that I think the larger majority of both groups are fair, good people (I hope) that play by the rules. I hate to think of the possibilities if that wasn't the case...but maybe I am looking through rose-colored gl*****.

I do think the OP should pursue this issue because really, a lease holder that is "bending" the rules such as you have described should be reported much the same as that leaseholder would report a poacher for bending the applicable hunting regs.

The rules and regs for both hunting and leasing land have all been designed to let us all play together in the same sandbox. It is up to the good members of both groups to help weed out the bad apples. So good luck and please let us know how it goes.

Second point I would like to make is this: Why is the outfitter that is causing so much trouble for you guys (BowhuntAB and dennis) not named publicly? I'm not asking you to do it...I'm just curious as to why you haven't. How can the situation be rectified if he hides in anonymity?

Edit: I think it is also ridiculous that I cannot type the word "glazzes" without having to substitute zeds for esses! Typing "ass" is one thing...typing "glass" is another. Yet I can type either word...but be damned if you can pluralize it!

Albertadiver · #37 08-25-2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack&7

Second point I would like to make is this: Why is the outfitter that is causing so much trouble for you guys not named publicly? I'm not asking you to do it...I'm just curious as to why you haven't. How can the situation be rectified if he hides in anonymity?

Seems to be a lot of this. Not sure why people are afraid to name names unless this is unsubstantiated rumour. I doubt it's a rumour though because there seems to be so many that say the same thing.

trouty · #38 08-25-2009, 03:44 PM

the leaseholder is Stuart Sinclair-Smith. He just also happens to own Triple S Outfitters I am told. I don't know anything about him as an outfitter, just trying to get on a lease. The fact he is the leasee is public knowledge and I found that out on the govs website.

Jack&7 · #39 08-25-2009, 03:54 PM

Thanks Trouty...

msawyer · #40 08-25-2009, 07:42 PM

Hello All...

This topic is dear to my heart... having unsuccessfully gone through the entire dispute process, not once but twice...

The question for all of you is this: When someone brings forward an negative experience they have had with a lease-holder, why does everyone avoid explicitly identifying the culprits? And what about outfitters who conduct illegal operations? Why don't we explicitly identify them?

Take care

Mike

trouty · #41 08-25-2009, 08:58 PM

so what's the story, why were you denied?

Jamie · #42 08-25-2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msawyer

Hello All...

This topic is dear to my heart... having unsuccessfully gone through the entire dispute process, not once but twice...

The question for all of you is this: When someone brings forward an negative experience they have had with a lease-holder, why does everyone avoid explicitly identifying the culprits? And what about outfitters who conduct illegal operations? Why don't we explicitly identify them?

Take care

Mike

MS. The lease holder and the guide (Same fellow) were IDed on the first page.

But I do see your point.
Personaly I have never had a negative experinace with SSS. In fact all my experiances were the exact opposite.

One time we both had permision on the same field. We came to a understanding about what days I would be there and what days he would be.
It worked rather well. I have NEVER heard of him paying for access. And I know 3 large landowners in the immediate area.

Jamie

Knotter · #43 08-25-2009, 10:30 PM

A major flaw with the system is that the hunter has the onus to meet the obligations and some (not all) leaseholders know how to string the issue along. Long enough for the season to run out or to frustrate the one seeking access. I've been refused access in instances where there was no management plan yet the leaseholder said that they were "all booked up for the season". (I actually have that one in writing). It just so happens that the individual holding the lease is a guide. These individuals are getting a free ride on resources I pay taxes to protect and manage. THe incentive on the part of the leaseholder/guide scenario is the legion of hunters who are willing to pay large sums of money to hunt here. That is a real income for these guys and I understand the motive for keeping the non-paying hunters off the land. They do it because they can.

On the other hand I have to come to the defense of the majority of leaseholders who do the right thing and don't take advantage of the many opportunities to abuse the system.

The unfortunate aspect of this situation is that we are moving deeper into conflict with leaseholders and landowners. That is not a good thing to pass onto the future generations of hunters and anglers. It's a pretty complex problem with no real solution in sight.

If you can't stomach the BS from some of the leaseholders then you better get used to working on permission on private land.

knot

Jamie · #44 08-25-2009, 11:45 PM

Ok, so here is the question.

Lets say a RENTER (Lease holder) Denies you unreasonably and you show up anyhow???

We are only suppose to be giving notice that we will be comming. So just show up.

Thoughts??

Jamie

blackpheasant · #45 08-26-2009, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie

Ok, so here is the question.

Lets say a RENTER (Lease holder) Denies you unreasonably and you show up anyhow???

We are only suppose to be giving notice that we will be comming. So just show up.

Thoughts??

Jamie

If said Lease Holder has no livestock on the Lease I will let him know when I am coming, I will give him my name, vehicle type, plate #, phone etc. then I'm going in, If they want to charge me with Trespass, have at it and see you in court...maybe we need to get some rulings from the court in order to get some clarity on this ongoing issue....

BowhuntAB · #46 08-26-2009, 09:49 AM

Yeah his wife is terrible!!! OMG she will follow trucks around honking the horn, yelling...

I'd love to go after the P.O.S but as i said he has some "key" players on his side and it makes for an unfair fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennisb

I will be watching this thread like a hawk.

Like BowhuntAB said, "The guy is as crooked as a they get and is up to no good all over the area." I couldnt agree more. You really have to watch out for his wife, she's the mean one.

When you pay the local land owners to have exculsive rights to hunt there property....well lets just say that that is very wrong(illegal). this comment i can totally prove with 2 other witnesses.

What ****es me off is the most is the bushells of oats and apples 20 yards from a treestand that i stumbled upon a few years back, then his wife chewing me a new one for trespassing( i had permission, and still do) and when i mentioned the baiting they quickly shut up and drove off.

If any one here wants to push the issue, count me in. I'll help in any way I can.

Its bad enough putting up with all the B.S. that goes on in the Bow Zone then you got a clown of a outfitter just adding to the aggravation.

trouty · #47 08-26-2009, 11:25 AM

I talked to the land manager today. He talked to her and asked her to provide the list of hunters that have requested access and who they have let out. He is going to follow it up, but didn't seem to want to spend too much time confirming who's been called etc. We'll see but I'm sure this is'nt her first rodeo and will have her ducks lined up when he calls people.

Now for all of us who think they can't say how many can go out there, they can if they request that and have a case for it, and it is approved with the local settlement officer. If it's on the lease terms on the website then it is approved. I don't agree with it, but the next step is to go to the settlement officer with a formal complaint who is the land manager's boss.

I told him I will be wanting him to prove if we are not allowed out there while they supposedly have cattle out, they are also not out there with their clients.

He said she stated there will likely be access for days in the late season cow elk draw, dec/jan. I told him I don't care about that because there are lots of landowners who will let us out, I want access in the regular bow season.

He gave her a week, we'll see.

dennisb · #48 08-26-2009, 01:20 PM

You know, Some one from SSS outfitting had already read this thread., and their definatlly keeping tabs on what is said here. This ain't their first rodeo. Like the statements i have made before...I totally stand behind them.
I've got a guy in my office that i got bowhunting last year and hes pumped about this year. He came to my office yesterday with a MD map all excited about the 1/2 section of land he found along side Hwy 773 that's leased land. I didnt have the heart to tell him the scoop, he's going out tonight to ask permission, so im waiting for him to come back to here what they(SSS) have to say.
Its not like I dont have a place to hunt in the bow zone, I'm very lucky to have exclusive permission on over 5000 acres. However most guys struggle to get a 1/4 section to hunt on. So to have a guy hording leased land or paying landowners to keep others off is sooooo wrong on every level.

I'm afraid there's no easy answer to all of this. I think that everybody has the right to enjoy a day out hunting with out putting up with the B.S.

hunt2live7766 · #49 08-26-2009, 01:39 PM

Does anyone have the link to the site that shows what area's are these leased lands. If so could you post it, I'm very interested in it

mtylerb · #50 08-26-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunt2live7766

Does anyone have the link to the site that shows what area's are these leased lands. If so could you post it, I'm very interested in it

I don't know if there's a site online. I just got Landowner Maps from the MD of Greenview, and it shows all the leased land, crown land and private land. You might need to check with a local office for the MD that you're going to be hunting in.

hunt2live7766 · #51 08-26-2009, 02:00 PM

oh ok, i was just reading and someone said something about the rules on the website so i thought maybe there was a list or something

mtylerb · #52 08-26-2009, 02:07 PM

I think they're referring to the rules for access to publicly leased lands. From Alberta Sustainable Resource Development website. It's not a list of leased lands, though.

hunt2live7766 · #53 08-26-2009, 02:22 PM

Perfect, thanks, i ended finding it. Being a rancher I wanted to see the rules to see what you guys were deeming "unfair".

igorot · #54 08-26-2009, 02:28 PM

The SRD map shows you provincial grazing land (PGR) and agricultural lease land, lease holder name and contact information and disposition number for the lease. The difference with the map you acquire from the MD is that, the SRD map does not show the privately own land owners and their contact number while the MD shows everything.

TX

dennisb · #55 08-26-2009, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunt2live7766

Perfect, thanks, i ended finding it. Being a rancher I wanted to see the rules to see what you guys were deeming "unfair".

Hey hunt2live7766, just wondering if you are the individual(SSS) that we are all talking about. I just found out that the ranch Phone # 403-938-7766

Get it, the last 4 numbers in your handle jive with the last 4 numbers in the contact info for Triple S outfitting

Not to be a ass, But if it is you(SSS) this is a great place for you to clear the air.

atlas · #56 08-26-2009, 03:13 PM

http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/lands/using...land/maps.aspx

igorot · #57 08-26-2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennisb

Hey hunt2live7766, just wondering if you are the individual(SSS) that we are all talking about. I just found out that the ranch Phone # 403-938-7766

Get it, the last 4 numbers in your handle jive with the last 4 numbers in the contact info for Triple S outfitting

Not to be a ass, But if it is you(SSS) this is a great place for you to clear the air.

What a coincidence eh

Sherlock Holmes will envy you and do you have any idea who inform him

Jack&7 · #58 08-26-2009, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennisb

Hey hunt2live7766, just wondering if you are the individual(SSS) that we are all talking about. I just found out that the ranch Phone # 403-938-7766

Get it, the last 4 numbers in your handle jive with the last 4 numbers in the contact info for Triple S outfitting

Not to be a ass, But if it is you(SSS) this is a great place for you to clear the air.

WOW!!!

Can't wait to see the answer to this one!

trouty · #59 08-27-2009, 07:58 AM

See my new post.

Vindalbakken · #60 08-27-2009, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCC

Sort of like public housing. Except they can keep you out of a rented house.

Yeah, sort of like welfare.