“Bullet Failure”

[Crow2058]

Five critical factors for a lethal shot:
1) Shot placement
2) Shot placement
3) Shot placement
4) Bullet construction
5) Shot placement

If we do our part, (1,2,3, & 5) number 4 is rarely an issue.

Crow

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by buckman

Have used NP bullet's for all my hunting for 40 years. They just plain work if I do my job.As others have said bullet choice and accurate shooting is the key.

Seen many animals go down with nosler partitions its what my Dad reloaded for moose for years without issues. Living in B.C. he took a bull every year so they had plenty of chance to fail

Now what I posted regarding my brothers deer was factory box rounds. Placement on the two shots that lacked penetration were not the issues. I wish he sent them back to Nosler because I have a feeling it was a factory oops

When a round only just makes it through the shoulder and doesn’t enter the chest at 40yards what would you call it?

The other passed through the leg bone just below the shoulder and was found in the armpit again close range never entered the chest a found just inside the skin. These are both shots I have taken deer with when slightly quarter towards me with a 30-30 but using federal fusion 170gr and they didn’t go far lol

I would definitely say in this case it was bullet failure was is a bad box possibly but still a failure

I will text my brother to see if he still has pictures of what we found. We have both been hunting for around 30years and come from a hunting family. Neither of us had ever seen something like this

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Crow2058

Five critical factors for a lethal shot:
1) Shot placement
2) Shot placement
3) Shot placement
4) Bullet construction
5) Shot placement

If we do our part, (1,2,3, & 5) number 4 is rarely an issue.

Crow

Ask John Nosler about number 4

[Crow2058]

John agrees….

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder76

Thought of another. My hunting partner shot a 370 public land bull. When he butchered that bull there was a bullet surrounded by grissel flatten against the shoulder bone of that bull. Bullet failure? Sure wasn’t bullet success.

Last year when butchering my friend's bull elk, we found this bullet flattened on shoulder. It's a .30 bullet, expanded, did not break shoulder. Healed scar tissue on hide of shoulder. Made no sense to me, fully expanded but not enough energy to break bone. I have no explanation, but it is a fail. If it had broken bone and entered chest cavity I expect the previous shooter would have harvested it.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Agree, however I have witnessed what I deemed a failure. My brother shot a bull elk broadside, 30-06 165gr NBT 100 yards… blew up on the scapula without a single shard getting through… we caught up to it and got it with a well placed frontal chest shot.

I believe that bullet “failed”.

LC

Happened to me, 140 gr Ballistic Tip from my 7mm08, hit shoulder of whitetail back at under 100 yards, bullet fragmented and broke shoulder, didn't enter chest cavity, didn't kill it. Took another shot to heart to do it. Huge amounts af bloodshot meat, lost a full quarter. Won't hunt with BT ever again.

[Ballertrawler II]

Seen a few similar things where a bullet expands too fast and does not get into the boiler room.

Most of this is because of shoulder shots.

I have also seen where a less than ideal shot drops an animal right there because of hydrostatic shock.

I have seen a 243 with an 85 gain NPT do a huge amount of damage and a 300 WSM with an accubond do very little damage with same placement.

A bullet is a precise energy delivery system but enough energy has to be placed in a place where it can destroy vital organs.

I have also seen where too much energy is delivered to the wrong spot wrecking a whole bunch of meat due to hydrostatic shock as well.

Usually "bullet failure" is more result of wrong placement than defective bullet. There are a few schools of thought, some want an exit hole, some want all the energy expended in the animal.

There are the big bullet moving slower aficionados (45-70) or a small bullet hitting fast aficionados (.243) or you can kind of split the middle with a 6.8-06

[1899b]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

Forensic or ballistic???

Ballistics is what gets it there. Forensics is studying what happened after it got there...

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by 1899b

Ballistics is what gets it there. Forensics is studying what happened after it got there...

Interior balistics ( before projectile leave the muzzle)
Exterior balistics ( projectile in flight)
Terminal balistics ( projectile after impact)

[fps plus]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Last year when butchering my friend's bull elk, we found this bullet flattened on shoulder. It's a .30 bullet, expanded, did not break shoulder. Healed scar tissue on hide of shoulder. Made no sense to me, fully expanded but not enough energy to break bone. I have no explanation, but it is a fail. If it had broken bone and entered chest cavity I expect the previous shooter would have harvested it.

This was a fail to kill the animal but to say it’s a bullet fail is a stretch. Maybe it was shot too far away and not enough energy to penetrate the vitals.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Last year when butchering my friend's bull elk, we found this bullet flattened on shoulder. It's a .30 bullet, expanded, did not break shoulder. Healed scar tissue on hide of shoulder. Made no sense to me, fully expanded but not enough energy to break bone. I have no explanation, but it is a fail. If it had broken bone and entered chest cavity I expect the previous shooter would have harvested it.

Guessing a 30/06

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Happened to me, 140 gr Ballistic Tip from my 7mm08, hit shoulder of whitetail back at under 100 yards, bullet fragmented and broke shoulder, didn't enter chest cavity, didn't kill it. Took another shot to heart to do it. Huge amounts af bloodshot meat, lost a full quarter. Won't hunt with BT ever again.

Only total bullet failure I've ever had was a ballistic tip as well. Was on a whitetail buck. First and last time I used one for hunting anything besides coyotes.

[DiabeticKripple]

The ballistic tip may as well be branded a varmint bullet. My BIL uses them and I am not impressed every time we go hunting.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

The ballistic tip may as well be branded a varmint bullet. My BIL uses them and I am not impressed every time we go hunting.

The Ballistic Tip varies greatly with caliber/bullet weight, and the version, some particular bullets have had three versions and every version performs differently. I have driven a later version 180gr Ballistic Tip through both shoulders of a bull elk, and it still retained 60% of its weight. And that bullet was driven out of my 300RUM at 3340fps. Yet a friend used the 165gr version in a 30-06, and it blew up on the shoulder, and never made it to the vitals, luckily his partner managed to get a bullet into the vitals to put down that elk

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The Ballistic Tip varies greatly with caliber/bullet weight, and the version, some particular bullets have had three versions and every version performs differently. I have driven a later version 180gr Ballistic Tip through both shoulders of a bull elk, and it still retained 60% of its weight. And that bullet was driven out of my 300RUM at 3340fps. Yet a friend used the 165gr version in a 30-06, and it blew up on the shoulder, and never made it to the vitals, luckily his partner managed to get a bullet into the vitals to put down that elk

Agree with all of this… I don’t use the ballistic tips for hunting anything bigger than a coyote.

LC

[Pathfinder76]

So can we conclude that bullets can indeed fail?

[fishnguy]

Interestingly, I probably read more bad things about Nosler BT than any other bullet (arguably). Their reviews online, on the other hand, are probably some of the best, here is Cabela’s:



Almost the same as but slightly better than Accubond and definitely better Accubond LR, as good as TTSX, etc.


I would think probability of bullet failure is pretty low but not zero. Proper shot placement likely helps to eliminate (or almost so) bad outcomes even in the rare events of bullet failure. But things are not always perfect.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

Interestingly, I probably read more bad things about Nosler BT than any other bullet (arguably). Their reviews online, on the other hand, are probably some of the best, here is Cabela’s:



Almost the same as but slightly better than Accubond and definitely better Accubond LR, as good as TTSX, etc.


I would think probability of bullet failure is pretty low but not zero. Proper shot placement likely helps to eliminate (or almost so) bad outcomes even in the rare events of bullet failure. But things are not always perfect.

The BT can be an excellent choice for smaller game, especially at lower velocity, and some versions of some bullets actually do well on larger game. I actually shot a couple of dozen deer with the 140gr BT out of my 7mmstw, and lung shots almost always produced kills on the spot or within a few yards. If you missed both shoulders, the blood would often spray 10-15 feet out the far side of the deer. But if you hit shouldet, the meat loss was excessive, sometimes an entire quater was pretty much wasted. The last version of the 180gr .308" BT had a very thick jacket, and held together, and pentrated well, even on moose and elk. The 200gr .338" BT was also a very tough bullet. But if you choose the wrong BT, or drive it too fast, they fragment badly, and offer very little penetration. With the BT, you pretty much need to know each particular bullet, and which version it is, to have any idea how it will perform on game.

[fishnguy]

^ To a guy like me, not very knowledgeable/experienced in that department, it surely sounds like something that should be avoided. Just like those Bergers and a couple of other bullets I saw mentioned with similar performance at high velocities, especially when bone contact is involved.

Posted another thread on the (maybe) related subject.

[slough shark]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

Buddy shot a bull elk 4 times in the shoulder at ranges of 30 to 80 yds with a 30wsm and 180 gr interlocks. First shot @30yds pancaked on the shoulder the bull falteted as if going down and a quick second round hit right beside the first but never made it through the shoulder. The bull started running out across the quarter section and a 3rd was sent which hit the leg bone and shattered it but still didnt make it to vitals. 4th round went through the chest and killed the bull. None of the first three made it past shoulder/ leg. Wrong bullet at that velocity to expect perfect performance but they should have made it through the shoulder at that range....

I had bad luck with 180 grain interlocks out of a 30-06, bullet separated from the core on an elk at 500 yards, still killed the elk but I wasn’t happy with that. The next year I shot a doe at 375 and the bullet barely made it half way through a broadside doe in spite of hitting nothing bigger than a rib. Stopped using them immediately as I can understand a longer shot on an elk giving subpar performance to some degree but that deer made me sign off them for good, only use the ones I had left now at the range.

[slough shark]

Probably the only other “bullet failure” I have seen was 20 something years ago, I shot a whitetail buck from 7 yards broadside with a 180 grain Winchester failsafe out of my 30-06 and the bullet shattered, no bones bigger than a rib going in and nothing exited and many small fragments throughout the lungs and far ribcage, deer didn’t go very far but that bullet was garbage.

[Phil McCracken]

Years back, couple of buddies and I were moose hunting. They were positioned about 1/2 mile from me in different locations, and I was doing the calling.

I then heard what I thought was a shot from one of them. Actually sounded more like a wet fart to me. Then another shot that sounded normal.

Waited half hour and went out to meet him. He saw a bull come in to the call, and when he felt comfortable took the first shot. He tells me there was no recoil. Second shot took care of the bull.

Talking about this at camp, figured out that the box of factory ammo he was shooting had a bunch green mold on the some of the primers. Basically, old ammunition that was not stored properly. Told him to get rid of them.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that ammo "components" can have failures also, not only the bullets, which I believe is rare, but do happen...

[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The Ballistic Tip varies greatly with caliber/bullet weight, and the version, some particular bullets have had three versions and every version performs differently. I have driven a later version 180gr Ballistic Tip through both shoulders of a bull elk, and it still retained 60% of its weight. And that bullet was driven out of my 300RUM at 3340fps. Yet a friend used the 165gr version in a 30-06, and it blew up on the shoulder, and never made it to the vitals, luckily his partner managed to get a bullet into the vitals to put down that elk

He’s shooting the 165’s out of a 30-06.

All the animals died, but penetration was poor, meat loss was high, next to no blood trail.

Lucky we always hunt November for WT and tracking is easier in the snow, we followed the tracks and found the deer 100yds away in the bush.

[leo]

I experienced a similar result years back. Shot a cow elk wit a 280 Remington. Was shooting factory Winchester Supreme 140 grain Ballistic Silver Tips. Shot placement was just behind the front shoulder. Distance was around 300 yards. Bullet fragments throughout the front end like a grenade went off. But the critter only went 30 yards. The bullet did the job of killing the animal humanly even though it didn’t perform in the manner I expected. I haven’t used BT Nosler bullets since. I still believe that most failures contributed to unrecovered animals is due to human error. There are far too many variables in the field to simply blame the projectile.

[MK2750]

Is bullet failure from a recovered animal a failure? I guess sometimes but a bad charge or a faulty primer is sometimes the blame.

How many animals are truly lost due to bullet failure or bullet performance for lack of a better term? I am talking never recovered. I would bet there is more animals lost from under expanding bullets than ever lost from a fractured bullet or lack of penetration.

How many "I can't believe I missed" shots are actually hits?

People are quick to condemn ballistic tip and the proven cup and core bullets after reading about or even experiencing a fractured bullet from a dead critter.

Seldom do you hear of a bullet passing through a chest cavity and an animal running off never to be seen again, but it happens often. I know because I have heard the stories, I have found the carcasses and I have tracked/recovered animals that went away too far for the shot placement. I would bet my life it happens 10 times more than an animal lost to a ballistic tip or cup and core failure. This is especially true on a year with no snow.

I have been driving corelokt, power points, kksp, silver tips, sabre tips, interlocks and ssts through deer for 50 years. I have lost exactly one animal and it was every bit my fault.

These bullets were never designed to smash shoulder and stop charging Grizzlies. They were designed to enter a chest cavity, with or without hitting a rib, and causing enough trauma to kill that animal really quick. They do that extremely well. The critter runs as far as he can get with no oxygen to the brain but more often drops on the spot or within sight.

The chest cavity offers a target bigger than a basket ball. Hunters should be able to hit a soft ball at any range they are willing to attempt a shot. If they can not, they should pass the shot. If you make a bad shot 99 times out of 100 a ballistic tip or cup and core will still get the job done. It will rip the liver and a handful of intestines out if you miss back and most often will enter the chest after hitting a shoulder.

Is a broadhead into the shoulder broadhead failure? The only time you should hit a shoulder with a ballistic tip or cup and core is when it is the opposite shoulder.

IMO the vast majority of hunters would be better served with a good old fashioned cup and core. You can generally always see the animal react to the hit and find evidence at the shot site. Most often they are within 50 yards if they went anywhere at all.

I am way too old to be tracking and dragging deer for an extra hundreds of yards. The buck I hit this years was walking slowly north. The inter-lock 165 from my 30-06 spun him around heading him south and he died right in his tracks. Top of the heart gone, both lungs and an big exit hole. He never even tried to lift his head. Déjà Vu, happens most every time I hit the chest.

If you want to use premium bullets, that is fine. I carry them when out west in big bear country. If I were to shoot a deer in the chest and not hit a rib I know what the reaction will be and can expect that animal to make a good run, not always but most likely. If it was near dark I would probably take out a shoulder or two rather than risk a chest shot.

I was lucky enough to purchase a rifle that shoots cheap Hornady Custom ammo into tiny groups. My son's rifle shoots the Federal Blue Box into tight groups but he opts for ammunition costing twice as much. To each their own I guess.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by MK2750

Is bullet failure from a recovered animal a failure? I guess sometimes but a bad charge or a faulty primer is sometimes the blame.

How many animals are truly lost due to bullet failure or bullet performance for lack of a better term? I am talking never recovered. I would bet there is more animals lost from under expanding bullets than ever lost from a fractured bullet or lack of penetration.

I agree, but weather or not they expand or break up, if the animal is lost it is impossible to determine if a bullet actually failed to do what it was supposed to do!
In my case, the animal would have certainly been lost if we had not followed up the next day , killing it after a very aggressive tracking and stalking job as the bullet did not immediately kill it, but broke into several pieces, one which traveled the length of the rib cage between the ribs and the hide, exiting and breaking the right rear hock!
Considering it hit right where it was aimed, and the buck was standing slightly to the left ( not head on), it was a perplexing discovery for sure!
Cat

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Happened to me, 140 gr Ballistic Tip from my 7mm08, hit shoulder of whitetail back at under 100 yards, bullet fragmented and broke shoulder, didn't enter chest cavity, didn't kill it. Took another shot to heart to do it. Huge amounts af bloodshot meat, lost a full quarter. Won't hunt with BT ever again.

This EXACT scenario happened to me, but I was using it in a 7 Rem Mag. Never used a ballistic tip again. If memory serves me correctly, the shot was broadside and like you, roughly 100 yards. Broadside. Likely right on the ragged edge of bullet construction in that loading.

Some may say I made a poor choice to begin with and they would likely be right.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by sns2

This EXACT scenario happened to me, but I was using it in a 7 Rem Mag. Never used a ballistic tip again. If memory serves me correctly, the shot was broadside and like you, roughly 100 yards. Broadside. Likely right on the ragged edge of bullet construction in that loading.

Some may say I made a poor choice to begin with and they would likely be right.

I had a slight quartering to me shot, so took the shoulder expecting to anchor him and take out both lungs. It knocked him down, but he struggled up and then I hit him broadside in heart. Terrible damage, dropped on second shot, so no tracking and I would still say humane kill. Since then I use Partitions (used them for 25 years), TTSX, and Trophy Bonded Tip. No issues.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

I had a slight quartering to me shot, so took the shoulder expecting to anchor him and take out both lungs. It knocked him down, but he struggled up and then I hit him broadside in heart. Terrible damage, dropped on second shot, so no tracking and I would still say humane kill. Since then I use Partitions (used them for 25 years), TTSX, and Trophy Bonded Tip. No issues.

This was early in my reloading journey. Mine stumbled, and I pumped another in. Never used em again. Switched to bonded bullets and monometals after that. That bullet totally came apart and made a huge friggin mess.

[hansol]

Might be a good time to read up on some studf from the guys that studied this stuff for a living.

Fackler, Roberts, Jenkins.

https://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&...mA&redir_esc=y

https://sjtrem.biomedcentral.com/art...757-7241-18-35

https://primaryandsecondary.com/basi...ormance-facts/

A good place to start is "temporary vs permanent cavity."

Copper bullets may as well be FMJ unless they are launched, and remain, at rather high velocity at impact. (Relative to lead-constructed bullets.)

Pay attention to bullet manufacturers' velocity windows for their various products. It will generally explain most "failures."

"That eldm/berger/tmk sure caused a lot of damage, but the deer dropped right in its tracks. Clearly a failure, cause I had no front quarter left." ... Bug, or feature?