Changes for all

[martinnordegg]

AEP needs some major pushback from Trappers and direction on making transfers work.

This reminds me of Bill6 when the Govt. wrote up the Legislation and then said oh, well this isn't written in stone we must have some stakeholder consultation and get it right. Guess what it's been passed through the system. What really concerns me is that these documents have been written and distributed without ANY consultation with the ATA.

I would sure ask ALL trappers both RFMA holders, Resident Trappers, Juniors, Spouses, Children, Grandchildren that are interested in inheriting the family line to write the Minister, Deputy Minister and their MLA.

Just as important please get feedback to Rob and Rene. Get your Local to hold a meeting to discuss and forward suggestions and comments through the Local as a group.

Additionally if I were the ATA President and Executive I would be lobbying to get two or more designated ATA representatives added to the Alberta Fur Management Team.

[nube]

Originally Posted by martinnordegg

AEP needs some major pushback from Trappers and direction on making transfers work.

This reminds me of Bill6 when the Govt. wrote up the Legislation and then said oh, well this isn't written in stone we must have some stakeholder consultation and get it right. Guess what it's been passed through the system. What really concerns me is that these documents have been written and distributed without ANY consultation with the ATA.

I would sure ask ALL trappers both RFMA holders, Resident Trappers, Juniors, Spouses, Children, Grandchildren that are interested in inheriting the family line to write the Minister, Deputy Minister and their MLA.

Just as important please get feedback to Rob and Rene. Get your Local to hold a meeting to discuss and forward suggestions and comments through the Local as a group.

Additionally if I were the ATA President and Executive I would be lobbying to get two or more designated ATA representatives added to the Alberta Fur Management Team.

]
X2

"While the ATA has not had input into the design of this "interim" document, we have been assured that we will have a place on the Fur Management Team moving forward, with our first meeting scheduled for September."
So FIRST meeting is in Sept eh lol

Then i also read this;

"Pressure has been placed on the Fur Management Team to have something in place for the new 2016 licensing term"

So they want to want to have things done for the new licensing time frame when your busy buying a license and the year is almost over......

Sorry but all this is getting shoved down our throats.

[nube]

Almost 1000 views on this thread and we have comments from half a dozen guys.
What can we do guys?
Does anyone have any contact info on who we should be writing letters too?
What kinds of changes are we looking for that will get lines used and not make things worse for the rest of us that actually do take care of their lines?

[muskrat]

Unfortunately, this has been in the wind for 5+years and for anyone paying big bucks for a line for the wrong reasons is the target... others innocents are collateral and may suffer unless they get serious about TRAPPING. I'm retired from the biz , still cant get it out of the blood but am sad/glad to see action finally...maybe. As someone posted earlier would like to see same action on the grazing leases.

[expedition]

Figure I just lost 50g not happy. Remove assists . How do you remove an old log cabin. How do I recouped the value of my Labour for construction and improvements. Some one sure dropped the ball.

[KegRiver]

A bit of prospective might help calm some folks a bit.

When I started trapping no one could sell a line, or any assets.
Lines are crown land, always were. Trappers used to put a lot of work into their lines and if they gave them up for any reason they received nothing for their investment.

I'm not sure when that changed, I think it was in the 1980s, anyway, changes were made so that trappers could sell improvements, nothing more.

That's the way it stands today so far as I know.

Yeah some sold for a lot more then what the improvements were worth. But that was not the intent and it was not what trappers asked for.

Then the anti trapping activists managed to turn people against fur and the fur market collapsed. That made it very tempting for trappers to sell to the highest bidder and with few looking to get into trapping, (because it no longer paid the bills,) outfitters saw an opportunity and exploited it.

In recent years we have had a resurgence of interest in trapping, a good thing. However, a lot of the new trappers heard stories of the good old days and started dreaming of owning their own line.
Seeing that a lot of lines today were not being fully utilized they lobbied for changes.

Which leads to where we are today.

Not being able to sell a line is not the end of trapping. In fact the day is coming when there will be NO registered trap lines.

Make no mistake, there are a lot of powerful voices crying for the end of registered lines. Logging companies, oil companies, outfitters and others do not like sharing the land with trappers.
Every day more land is sold or leased reducing the amount of land available for registered lines. Eventually there won't be enough left to resist the voices calling for the end of registered trap lines. It will happen.
But trapping will survive.

Will the new regs make life difficult for a few people, Of course they will. And so will logging and oil exploration and land development. In fact these others have been causing trappers pain for a lot of years, and it will only get worse.

Bottom line, nothing stays the same. We adapt and survive.
Trapping the way it was when I was young is dead and gone but it has been replaced by a new kind of trapping.
And this new kind of trapping is much harder to stop then the old way was.

When I was learning to trap, it was all about making a living. To stop it all the antis had to do was make it unprofitable.
This new trapping is about the love of the outdoors and that can not be stopped so easily.

I'm not saying you shouldn't try to change things for the better, I am saying, don't worry about it. Trapping will change, and it will survive.

[martinnordegg]

Originally Posted by nube

Almost 1000 views on this thread and we have comments from half a dozen guys.
What can we do guys?
Does anyone have any contact info on who we should be writing letters too?
What kinds of changes are we looking for that will get lines used and not make things worse for the rest of us that actually do take care of their lines?

It is pretty sad that only a few have responded. I'll bet the thread about sawdust will get more posts.

These documents will get pushed through.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by antlercarver

I had a registered line for many years and my Dad also had a different line for a long time. I think a line is worth in dollars what that line can produce in dollars in maybe 3 years. The system has been abused in several ways for the last 40 years. It does not make sense to have truck,quads, snow machines, guns, traps, chain saws, cabins, skinning shack worth 100k and more, and time invested to harvest 3-5k of fur.
It has become a playground and people have found several ways to use existing rules to have their own playground
Presently I think 80% or more of line holders are this way, there are others who use a line as a true source of part time income.
Maybe the law makers dont have it 100% right but line holders brought this on themselves.

Your right, it is frustrating that people create situations in which laws get implemented to deter those who abuse situations and that effects all involved, this not only pertains to trap lines but freaking everything.

[pikeslayer22]

I have sent emails on a couple items in these documents...the rest I kinda agree with and feel there is a lot of abuse in the system that needs to be addressed.

Was looking for a line that was reasonable priced and a size that as a part time trapper could manage for more than a decade so no worries on the management plan. Have a couple boys with licenses that the line will hopefully be passed on to. If this brings down the value of lines so be it, if I can ever retire will be looking a bigger one and trap full time.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Guys it is very clear that our RFMA,s are a lease document signed with the Province of Alberta. Our cabins, sheds, bridges, trails, traps, even our Johns are lease hold improvements made to the RFMA. It is utterly criminal that the Fur Management committee would even consider to write these assets down to $0. We trappers that have added value to a particular RFMA definitely need to have a mechanism for adequate/fair compensation from new Senior trapper.
I would recommend that New senior trapper selected must negotiate for assets at fair market value or line would be passed to next most qualified trapper.

[pikeslayer22]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Guys it is very clear that our RFMA,s are a lease document signed with the Province of Alberta. Our cabins, sheds, bridges, trails, traps, even our Johns are lease hold improvements made to the RFMA. It is utterly criminal that the Fur Management committee would even consider to write these assets down to $0. We trappers that have added value to a particular RFMA definitely need to have a mechanism for adequate/fair compensation from new Senior trapper.
I would recommend that New senior trapper selected must negotiate for assets at fair market value or line would be passed to next most qualified trapper.

I could see some improvements going up in flames if that happened.

[martinnordegg]

The big ones for me are the non conditional relinquishment, and the status of the trapline going vacant if the Senior Holder dies. This could easily eliminate a Junior or a family member from taking the line over. Once it is relinquished or deemed vacant, it is advertised for the defined period and the fate of the next Senior holder is in the hands of a qualification spreadsheet and Biologist.

[KegRiver]

There is a simple solution folks.

Don't invest a lot into something you don't own.

Trap from a tent, hand slash only where absolutely necessary, cross on ice when possible. There are a lot of ways to reduce costs, and thus investment.
If it really bothers you to let it go to the next guy.

I know the trend is to build cabins akin to lodges, that is fine if the builder is willing to risk loosing it.

But really, you guys are getting as bad as the grasing lease holders.

It's crown land folks.

[nube]

Yes that is what bothers me the most Martinnordegg as well.
We all want lines to get used and I have no issues with getting a system in place to do this.
What I have issues with is how easy a line can get stolen from you and how my line won't keep it's value moving forward.

What we want is a way to prove if a guy really is using his line or not. Other than a quota system I am not sure if there is any other way and I sure as heck don't want to go there and be forced to catch 50 beaver a year or whatever just to hit a certain number to keep my line.

[martinnordegg]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

There is a simple solution folks.

Don't invest a lot into something you don't own.

Trap from a tent, hand slash only where absolutely necessary, cross on ice when possible. There are a lot of ways to reduce costs, and thus investment.
If it really bothers you to let it go to the next guy.

I know the trend is to build cabins akin to lodges, that is fine if the builder is willing to risk loosing it.

But really, you guys are getting as bad as the grasing lease holders.

It's crown land folks.

It's not ALL about money. Please read post 42. Have a read at what the Fur Management Team came up with because they were under pressure to have some semblance of a document to administrate Traplines and transfers for 2016. Without any input or consultation from trappers or the ATA.

I don't know where you get "the trend is to build cabins akin to lodges" but perhaps you could give us some statistics on how many trapper cabins there are and point out how many have the so called "lodges".

Maybe enlighten us on how what you mean about being as bad as grazing lease holders.

[6tmile]

I believe most trappers won't have to worry about anything. If you use your line every year no problem. Keep good records on adult to juvenile catch ratios and everything will be good. If you can't trap your line bring on a junior. In the wmu that I am living in there is 2 traplines that haven't been trapped in the last 6 years. The owners are pushing 70+ years old, but won't take on a junior or partner. These traplines like alot of others have no improvements except what the oil companies and seismic have done. I believe this will help get lines into the hands of people that will use them. What I would like to know though is what will happen with first nations traplines. Will we have a chance to try to get their lines and will they get a chance take over whiteys line?

[209x50]

I think this is in the very early stages as Rob has stated. A while ago the government of Alberta sued a trapline owner for the proceeds of the sale of his line. If it was considered an asset that they could sue for the revenue over it gives us a lot more rights than what the document posted here outlines. I think I will wait to see the outcome of the discussions before I load my gun. LOL

[drake]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I think this is in the very early stages as Rob has stated. A while ago the government of Alberta sued a trapline owner for the proceeds of the sale of his line. If it was considered an asset that they could sue for the revenue over it gives us a lot more rights than what the document posted here outlines. I think I will wait to see the outcome of the discussions before I load my gun. LOL

Can you clarify....did the GOA sue the trapper or vise versa

[martinnordegg]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I think this is in the very early stages as Rob has stated. A while ago the government of Alberta sued a trapline owner for the proceeds of the sale of his line. If it was considered an asset that they could sue for the revenue over it gives us a lot more rights than what the document posted here outlines. I think I will wait to see the outcome of the discussions before I load my gun. LOL

The only thing that is in it's early stages is Trapper and ATA input.

It would be interesting to read the documents pertaining to the lawsuit you mention and the outcome whatever it may be. Perhaps a link or GOA vs ????. I don't see how this would change the definition of a vacant line and the subsequent non conditional relinquishment and open application process. Apparently you have the option to move your assets off the line.

[nube]

Rich, surprised on your comment. By the time you load your gun it's going to be a done deal bro!!
Look at the timeline on when they want this done.
We can all sit on the sidelines which it seems like most guys are doing right now. Kinda dissapointing really

[6tmile]

Here is a write up that Rob Miskosky did in Alberta Outdoorsmen awhile back about the changes.



OUTDOOR PURSUITS
with Rob Miskosky

Trapping in the 21st Century

“One is 40 square miles, the other is 50 square,” he said from on the other end of the line. “I want a thousand a square mile. If you buy them both, you can have them for eighty thousand.”

“What comes with them?” I asked, already knowing the price was well out of my league.

“Nothing. There’s no cabin or equipment, you just get the line.”

“What line?” I asked. “You obviously don’t trap them, how could there be a line?”

“Take it or leave it. I’ll get what I want,” he said with finality.

I knew he was right; he would get the ridiculous price he was asking. The two traplines were side by side in the foothills of the Rockies. The perfect place for the recreationist looking for his own private getaway.

“Not from me you won’t,” I said, hanging up the phone in frustration.



The use of traplines for purposes other than trapping has ruined the image of trappers in Alberta.
I’m not sure what caller number he was but the numbers I had called over the previous couple of years were adding up, just as were the miles on my truck driving around the province looking at potential traplines that were for sale. Those I had driven to were priced in my ballpark but there always seemed to be a reason why. Mostly they were occupied lands with very little Crown land associated with them. I’d done enough trapping for farmers as a resident trapper; I wanted a line I could manage for myself and the health of the animals on that land.

I’m now about four years removed from that conversation but things haven’t changed. In fact, they’re worse. Today, traplines in Alberta are sold to the highest bidder. It doesn’t matter if the buyer plans on trapping his purchase or not. It’s an industry that, shamefully, isn’t regulated to any degree and many traplines in Alberta are purely owned for recreational purposes.

At the time of this writing there is a trapline listed for sale in the Bargain Finder under the heading “Recreational Property” with the following particulars: Registered Trap Line in WMU510, log cabin, 25’ x 30’, 2 bdrms, on 1.5 acres of leased land, c/w 12’ x 18’ skinning shack & lighting plant. $55,000 obo.

Say what? Let’s think about this for a minute. First off, the cabin and skinning shack clearly violate the “Trapper Cabins, a policy for use” rules that state, “The trapper’s main cabin should not exceed 576 sq. feet (24’ x 24’ or equiv.)” and the out-building maximum of 12’ x 12’.

Secondly, the buildings are on leased land. Should the holder of the lease suddenly decide to purchase this land, which is quite possible, what happens then to the cabin? A cabin that would have taken considerably less than $55,000 to construct.

And what would it take for the buyer to get his money back from trapping? Considering the prices received for fur at auction houses these days, minus expenses for actually trapping, there is no chance of ever getting a return on your dollar. Simple economics prove this over and over again. The buyer of any trapline for dollars such as this will undoubtedly want to use his trapping cabin for other purposes. Otherwise, why would you spend that kind of money?



The author preparing a 330 conibear on a beaver lodge.

Now, I’m not against anybody getting value for their hard work or money spent from their own pocket, but what are you actually getting when you buy a trapline? You don’t own the land and in fact can’t interfere with the activities of any other users of that land. If somebody wanted to set up a treestand next to your cabin, you couldn’t stop him. You may own the cabin, but only in the slightest sense of the word. If a forest fire were to consume your line and the cabin on it, you are done. There is no more trapline, at least not in your lifetime. And last time I checked you can’t get fire insurance on a cabin in the middle of a forest, let alone insurance for theft or vandalism. So, why would anybody spend that kind of money for a trapline? It certainly wouldn’t be to trap it.

Most trappers trap because of the lifestyle they are able to achieve and because they have an unconditional love for the animals they trap and the wilderness that surrounds them. They report to Fish and Wildlife any things they see or find regarding the health of the animals and/or land they trap. They work with Fish and Wildlife and other organizations on projects or studies taking place on their traplines and they promote what they do because they know that the loss of the trapper is a huge loss to the areas they trap. They are the custodians of our forests.

Does the guy owning a trapline that uses it for recreational purpose do any of those things? Does he spend the time to teach those who do not appreciate or understand the role a trapper plays in the environment the importance of that role? Does he worry about the marten and the fisher or the otter and lynx? Or is he just concerned about that rock on the trail that one day might wreck the ski on his skidoo or the tire on his quad? Or whether or not he can get away with that big addition on his cabin so he has more room for the boys at hunting season?

Currently there are many discussions taking place regarding the use of traplines in Alberta. And according to Dave Ealey, Issues Manager, Sustainable Resource Development (SRD), these discussions, titled “Trapping in the 21st Century”, are ongoing and definitely on the front burner.

“We’ve reached a point where there are a lot of concerns by a lot of different people that traplines aren’t being used properly. And we recognize that concern,” said Ealey.

“It’s an important one for us and we are moving forward quickly.”

According to Dan Grahn, Section Head, Industrial and Commercial Land Use for SRD, the use of traplines have to be brought back into focus.

“As a group we’ve discussed many, many options as to what trapping should be in the 21st Century. I mean, this isn’t the 1900s any more,” said Grahn, who plays a big part in the use of trapline cabins and is a member of the Trapping in the 21st Century discussions.

“There are major issues with the use of traplines and cabins. We want to see traplines used for the hunting and trapping of fur only. What they were intended for.

“We have the report from the consultant that will go forward to the Deputy Minister,” Grahn stated quite emphatically.

Grahn also suggested he would be a little leery about purchasing a trapline with other intentions in mind right now. Because changes are in the works and most likely will be instituted.

Far too many own traplines for the wrong reasons. This, in the end, could be the loss of the true trapper in Alberta, and with that loss comes the loss of a time-honoured tradition that helped shape this country into what it is today. But before that loss takes place, there are many committed to correcting a problem that has gotten out of hand.

“We want trapping to be looked upon as a legitimate industry. We’re looking at what different jurisdictions do; we’re assessing that information, and looking at how it would work in this province. Recreational use of traplines doesn’t mesh with trapping in Alberta,” said Dave Ealey, who also made it perfectly clear that changes are coming and coming soon.

As the old saying goes, buyer beware!

[D4l3k]

[QUOTE=martinnordegg;3279901
Maybe enlighten us on how what you mean about being as bad as grazing lease holders.[/QUOTE]

Like traplines, in recent times, grazing lease holder sell their leases to other people for tens of thousands of dollars, when in reality they do not own it as it is also crown land

Howwver, unlike trapline owners, Grazing lease owners have created the ability to actually pull in access dollars directly from oil and gas companies for accessing their graIng leases

There has been many recent articles about how Grazing lease owners in alberta have been paid millions and millions of dollars from oil and gas to access lands they do not even own!! When these dollars should be going to the crown

I also know of many grazing leases that are used as private hunting grounds and have never had a animal on them ever (they are not even cleared and 95% trees)

All around the trapline I am a junior on, the same guys has about 20 grazing lease quarters and doesn't even know a animal ?!?! He bought them as investments

I'm sure NDP will be coming after these guys next!

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by martinnordegg

It's not ALL about money. Please read post 42. Have a read at what the Fur Management Team came up with because they were under pressure to have some semblance of a document to administrate Traplines and transfers for 2016. Without any input or consultation from trappers or the ATA.

I don't know where you get "the trend is to build cabins akin to lodges" but perhaps you could give us some statistics on how many trapper cabins there are and point out how many have the so called "lodges".

Maybe enlighten us on how what you mean about being as bad as grazing lease holders.

It has never been all about money and I never said it was or is. In fact I said quiet the opposite.

So far as the non conditional relinquishment, that has always been the case. Never in my life time was a line ever guarneteed to be passed on or handed over to family or a junior trapper.
It has always been up to the individual SRD officer. Even a sales agreement is never guranteed and never has been.

It has also always been that if you did not trap your line you could loose it.
The reason that has not been enforced is because too few real trappers wanted to trap remote lines, because we know the cost and the return do not even equal out most of the time.

So a few newcomers want to take over those untrapped lines and they have complained enough to bring about these changes.

You asked for it folks, live with it.

Actually, I think that #1 it will make little differance to either side, and #2 even if it brings about possitive change, it will be for naught.

I've seen lines stripped of timber, pretty much rendering them worthless for trapping for years to come, I've seen lines turned itno farm land, I've seen what the increased traffic allowed by oilfield development does to trapping.

I see no reason to believe this trend will end or even deminish. In fact I see it increasing, as will tighter controls and reduced seasons.

You want to argue about cabins. Why? What's the point?
I've lived in cabins built during the hay days of trapping and I've seen plenty of the new generation cabins. I know what I saw and I know cabins are not the issue.

The issue is, too many these days want everything to be easy and comfortable.

Fact is, there is a price for everything. People who spend a lot building a cabin will want to be repaid for their investment. And that has lead to where we are now. That is the price.

You all would laugh at my cabin. Dirt floor, Poly windows, a home made table and chairs. Gas light, water pail plumbing and a log outside for a bathroom.
I didn't sell my line hundreds of thousands of dollars, the improvements weren't worth much. And that is old school and it works.

I also didn't sell my line to an outfitter, although several made offers and some for many times more then what I sold it for.
And just for those who like to start fights, I sold it for the cost of building materials only, to a long time friend, and trapping mentor.

I did not claim the costs of opening trails or making bridges or any of the myriad other things people these days want to get paid for.
If I were at liberty to disclose what I sold it for most of you would have a field day telling me what a fool I was. But you know what, it's my head that I sleep in, not yours. I comfortable with the deal I made and the reasons I made it.

And that is the biggest difference between the way trapping used to be and what it has become. Trappers used to care about their neighbors, instead of caring about what their neighbors were doing.

[martinnordegg]

So far as the non conditional relinquishment, that has always been the case. Never in my life time was a line ever guarneteed to be passed on or handed over to family or a junior trapper.

I've done three transfers in the last 25 years. The first two had a condition of relinquishment that a certain party was to be approved as Senior or the transfer was void. The last one (October) had to be unconditional.

It has always been up to the individual SRD officer. Even a sales agreement is never guranteed and never has been.

It has been until the last one. Then the process went to the CO, Public Lands and the Biologist. Sales agreement has nothing to do with the approval and AEP want nothing to do with any asset agreement whatsoever.

It has also always been that if you did not trap your line you could loose it.
The reason that has not been enforced is because too few real trappers wanted to trap remote lines, because we know the cost and the return do not even equal out most of the time.

I agree, if you don't trap the line it should be considered vacant as per the definition in the documents. In our area I have never seen more trappers out actually trapping their lines. Hopefully this will be enforced where it fits.

So a few newcomers want to take over those untrapped lines and they have complained enough to bring about these changes.

So called newcomers didn't come up with the verbiage in the referenced documents.



You asked for it folks, live with it.

Asked for what???

Actually, I think that #1 it will make little differance to either side, and #2 even if it brings about possitive change, it will be for naught.

I've seen lines stripped of timber, pretty much rendering them worthless for trapping for years to come, I've seen lines turned itno farm land, I've seen what the increased traffic allowed by oilfield development does to trapping.

I see no reason to believe this trend will end or even deminish. In fact I see it increasing, as will tighter controls and reduced seasons.

You want to argue about cabins. Why? What's the point?

Whose arguing? Generalizing with non fact is not making a realistic point.


I've lived in cabins built during the hay days of trapping and I've seen plenty of the new generation cabins. I know what I saw and I know cabins are not the issue.

The issue is, too many these days want everything to be easy and comfortable.

Fact is, there is a price for everything. People who spend a lot building a cabin will want to be repaid for their investment. And that has lead to where we are now. That is the price.

You're saying lines should be discounted to lose the price put into improvements?

You all would laugh at my cabin. Dirt floor, Poly windows, a home made table and chairs. Gas light, water pail plumbing and a log outside for a bathroom.
I didn't sell my line hundreds of thousands of dollars, the improvements weren't worth much. And that is old school and it works

I also didn't sell my line to an outfitter, although several made offers and some for many times more then what I sold it for.
And just for those who like to start fights, I sold it for the cost of building materials only, to a long time friend, and trapping mentor.

All Outfitters are not Demons LOL. Glad you got your money out of your improvements.

I did not claim the costs of opening trails or making bridges or any of the myriad other things people these days want to get paid for.
If I were at liberty to disclose what I sold it for most of you would have a field day telling me what a fool I was. But you know what, it's my head that I sleep in, not yours. I comfortable with the deal I made and the reasons I made it.

I don't think anyone would think you are a fool obviously you were happy with the deal you made. Perfect!!

And that is the biggest difference between the way trapping used to be and what it has become. Trappers used to care about their neighbors, instead of caring about what their neighbors were doing.[/QUOTE]

Trappers still do care about their neighbors, the wildlife they deal with and how their line is managed. I feel sorry for you that you are so jaded toward present day trappers, many of which are also your vintage. With that please try to have a great day.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by drake

Can you clarify....did the GOA sue the trapper or vise versa

The discussion took place at the rendezvous. I believe it was Rob that spoke about it and because the GOA sued the Trapper for the proceeds it change the status of the trapline. I'm not a lawyer so I don't understand it all but there were a lot of people there who are involved in these talks and they didn't seem to be worried. They all had just as much to lose as you are so I took comfort in that.

[martinnordegg]

Originally Posted by 209x50

The discussion took place at the rendezvous. I believe it was Rob that spoke about it and because the GOA sued the Trapper for the proceeds it change the status of the trapline. I'm not a lawyer so I don't understand it all but there were a lot of people there who are involved in these talks and they didn't seem to be worried. They all had just as much to lose as you are so I took comfort in that.

Interesting move by GOA if it did really happen. Too bad some facts on the lawsuit aren't known. Time will tell.

[martinnordegg]

Originally Posted by 209x50

The discussion took place at the rendezvous. I believe it was Rob that spoke about it and because the GOA sued the Trapper for the proceeds it change the status of the trapline. I'm not a lawyer so I don't understand it all but there were a lot of people there who are involved in these talks and they didn't seem to be worried. They all had just as much to lose as you are so I took comfort in that.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by martinnordegg

So far as the non conditional relinquishment, that has always been the case. Never in my life time was a line ever guarneteed to be passed on or handed over to family or a junior trapper.

I've done three transfers in the last 25 years. The first two had a condition of relinquishment that a certain party was to be approved as Senior or the transfer was void. The last one (October) had to be unconditional.



It has always been up to the individual SRD officer. Even a sales agreement is never guranteed and never has been.

It has been until the last one. Then the process went to the CO, Public Lands and the Biologist. Sales agreement has nothing to do with the approval and AEP want nothing to do with any asset agreement whatsoever.

It has also always been that if you did not trap your line you could loose it.
The reason that has not been enforced is because too few real trappers wanted to trap remote lines, because we know the cost and the return do not even equal out most of the time.

I agree, if you don't trap the line it should be considered vacant as per the definition in the documents. In our area I have never seen more trappers out actually trapping their lines. Hopefully this will be enforced where it fits.

So a few newcomers want to take over those untrapped lines and they have complained enough to bring about these changes.

So called newcomers didn't come up with the verbiage in the referenced documents.



You asked for it folks, live with it.

Asked for what???

Actually, I think that #1 it will make little differance to either side, and #2 even if it brings about possitive change, it will be for naught.

I've seen lines stripped of timber, pretty much rendering them worthless for trapping for years to come, I've seen lines turned itno farm land, I've seen what the increased traffic allowed by oilfield development does to trapping.

I see no reason to believe this trend will end or even deminish. In fact I see it increasing, as will tighter controls and reduced seasons.

You want to argue about cabins. Why? What's the point?

Whose arguing? Generalizing with non fact is not making a realistic point.


I've lived in cabins built during the hay days of trapping and I've seen plenty of the new generation cabins. I know what I saw and I know cabins are not the issue.

The issue is, too many these days want everything to be easy and comfortable.

Fact is, there is a price for everything. People who spend a lot building a cabin will want to be repaid for their investment. And that has lead to where we are now. That is the price.

You're saying lines should be discounted to lose the price put into improvements?

You all would laugh at my cabin. Dirt floor, Poly windows, a home made table and chairs. Gas light, water pail plumbing and a log outside for a bathroom.
I didn't sell my line hundreds of thousands of dollars, the improvements weren't worth much. And that is old school and it works

I also didn't sell my line to an outfitter, although several made offers and some for many times more then what I sold it for.
And just for those who like to start fights, I sold it for the cost of building materials only, to a long time friend, and trapping mentor.

All Outfitters are not Demons LOL. Glad you got your money out of your improvements.

I did not claim the costs of opening trails or making bridges or any of the myriad other things people these days want to get paid for.
If I were at liberty to disclose what I sold it for most of you would have a field day telling me what a fool I was. But you know what, it's my head that I sleep in, not yours. I comfortable with the deal I made and the reasons I made it.

I don't think anyone would think you are a fool obviously you were happy with the deal you made. Perfect!!

And that is the biggest difference between the way trapping used to be and what it has become. Trappers used to care about their neighbors, instead of caring about what their neighbors were doing.

Trappers still do care about their neighbors, the wildlife they deal with and how their line is managed. I feel sorry for you that you are so jaded toward present day trappers, many of which are also your vintage. With that please try to have a great day.

Sorry bud, I'm not into arguing minor points. You beleve what you like.

So you have done three line transfers in 25 years, so what does that prove. I did two in forty five years, does that mean I know less then you do?

Yes sometimes COs allow a transfer to happen as per the wishes of the senior, but they are under no obligation to and never have been.
They have the discretion to attach conditions if they wish, just as you indicate, and as I said.

I did not say a line should be considered vacant if it was not trapped, I said it could be taken from the senior line holder if it was not trapped, and it has been that way as long as I have known.

No I am not saying lines should be discounted for any reason, I said, you risk loosing you investment so why invest more then you have to?
And I said it has been that way for a long time.

I also never said all outfitters were Demons nore did I suggest it, that is entirely your imagination.

That's as far as I'm willing to go with you. We are done.
You twist what I say, you put words in my mouth, you make false claims.

You are NOT WORTH MY TIME.

With that please try to have a great day.

[waterninja]

What with this and that I haven't checked out the Trapping section in awhile. I can see where some of the members on here who trap a rfma would have legitimate concerns. A lot of you have spent considerable time and money in improvements and I think it would be criminal to not be compensated for that when the time comes to pass on or sell rfma.
I do like that the govt. is trying to insure that rfma's are being used for trapping and not for some wealty politically connected person to have thier own private hunting grounds. Wish they would look at grazing leases also. Lots of them being abused.
One ray of hope is that in a couple years we could have a new govt. more in touch with albertan's. Lots of damage to be undone.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Guys, I am quoting from 1992 Alberta Forestry Document 8650-1. "Assets of RFMA (Such as Cabins, bridges, trails) may be bequeathed by a RFMA license holder. The beneficiary will be allowed 180 days for a opportunity to sell the assets by recommending, in writing a person the RFMA can be transferred to."
What happened to common sense in Fish and Wildlife Division. It was called a Transfer process, not a Relinquishment giving it to a Biologist to do what he wants with a developed trapline, not a piece of poly and a few logs dug into the ground.