Reply to APOS sheep statement

[Full Curl]

I'm curious as well.

It seems with this whole thing that there is a pile of speculation on both sides about how much/ how little benefit there is.

As a resident that will not likely be hiring an outfitter for a home province sheep hunt, I don't want to see "my" opportunity diminished based on the financial gain of a small business that is relying on a public resource to make them viable. Which is how it feels from reading the APOS statement.

Not really sure what the arguement about going to another province or country and hiring an outfitter has to do with this discussion? "Fair is fair" I read, but what is that supposed to mean to a regular resident?

[Domestique]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

Outfitter benefits to the province are it employs a bunch of people and supports several small businesses. If a non hunting beauricrat is looking at things they would want it to be heavily hunted by outfitters to bring revenue into the province. The numbers across the Alberta outfitting industry as a whole are pretty big and sheep are big return hunts

Residents benefit to the Province is we are tax payers and fund the operations of the Province. The amount of money that Outfitters, through business taxes, fuel, food, accommodation, etc inject into this Province is minimal compared to what resident Albertans contribute.

In APOS own words the majority of outfitting businesses in this Province are part-time ventures.

Yes I believe that outfitting has a place in the Province, but when resident demand exceeds the resource available; The sustainability of the resource should come first, resident/FN opportunity second, and non-resident opportunity third.

[rcmc]

RESIDENTS FIRST and everything else is secondary.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Full Curl

I'm curious as well.

It seems with this whole thing that there is a pile of speculation on both sides about how much/ how little benefit there is.

As a resident that will not likely be hiring an outfitter for a home province sheep hunt, I don't want to see "my" opportunity diminished based on the financial gain of a small business that is relying on a public resource to make them viable. Which is how it feels from reading the APOS statement.

Not really sure what the arguement about going to another province or country and hiring an outfitter has to do with this discussion? "Fair is fair" I read, but what is that supposed to mean to a regular resident?

I'm more curious on how much of the money flows outside of our borders, to financial backers, guides employed from outside of the province. The economic benefit to the economy is vastly larger from the resident hunter than from the sheep outfitting industry.

[Full Curl]

Originally Posted by bdub

I'm more curious on how much of the money flows outside of our borders, to financial backers, guides employed from outside of the province. The economic benefit to the economy is vastly larger from the resident hunter than from the sheep outfitting industry.

I would tend to agree with this.

BUT I am looking for something from APOS or the outfitting industry to show otherwise.

The original problem that needs to be dealt with is the alleged trouble that our sheep are in but it is now spinning into a resident vs. outfitter issue.

I've heard it right from ESRD that they know these groups can't agree on a solution for all so they would likely do what they decide is best in the end anyway. Spooky thought no?

Seems to me that APOS should be trying really hard to sell why they are a good thing to Alberta residents rather than suggest what their statement seems to say to me. (Alberta resident)

[lead chucker]

Originally Posted by Domestique

Residents benefit to the Province is we are income tax payers and fund the operations of the Province. The amount of money that Outfitters, through business taxes, fuel, food, accommodation, etc inject into this Province is minimal compared to what resident Albertans contribute.

In APOS own words the majority of outfitting businesses in this Province are part-time ventures.

Yes I believe that outfitting has a place in the Province, but when resident demand exceeds the resource available; The sustainability of the resource should come first, resident/FN opportunity second, and non-resident opportunity third.

Very well said!

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Full Curl

I would tend to agree with this.

BUT I am looking for something from APOS or the outfitting industry to show otherwise.

The original problem that needs to be dealt with is the alleged trouble that our sheep are in but it is now spinning into a resident vs. outfitter issue.

I've heard it right from ESRD that they know these groups can't agree on a solution for all so they would likely do what they decide is best in the end anyway. Spooky thought no?

Seems to me that APOS should be trying really hard to sell why they are a good thing to Alberta residents rather than suggest what their statement seems to say to me. (Alberta resident)

Not for me. I happen to agree that full curl is the best option, not only for the health of the sheep herd but for the preservation of our sheep hunting heritage. I think there is plenty of scientific evidence that this is the best route to follow. And it also happens to be the fairest to all, and maintains hunting opprtunity for all.

[nube]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

Outfitter benefits to the province are it employs a bunch of people and supports several small businesses. If a non hunting beauricrat is looking at things they would want it to be heavily hunted by outfitters to bring revenue into the province. The numbers across the Alberta outfitting industry as a whole are pretty big and sheep are big return hunts

It does a heck of a lot more than that. A lot of you guys are missing my points but carry on.

[Full Curl]

Originally Posted by nube

It does a heck of a lot more than that. A lot of you guys are missing my points but carry on.

Help us out then.

I have a cold and so my comprehension of thing is off a notch.

[Full Curl]

Originally Posted by bdub

Not for me. I happen to agree that full curl is the best option, not only for the health of the sheep herd but for the preservation of our sheep hunting heritage. I think there is plenty of scientific evidence that this is the best route to follow. And it also happens to be the fairest to all, and maintains hunting opprtunity for all.

I wasn't specifically saying that they would choose full curl. Could be that they wanted a special licence hunt.

You could very well be correct with your statement though. Or is there enough scientific evidence to say that something like full curl needs to happen for sure? Seems like WSF doesn't agree with that.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by nube

It does a heck of a lot more than that. A lot of you guys are missing my points but carry on.

I must be missing the point as well could you give some examples. Were I stand I dont see the outfitters doing squat for the resource.

[katts69]

Just for example Neil Beeman, one of the supporters of the apos letter that started this whole thing.
From his website he said that he himself would be guiding only 3 bighorn hunts this year. 3 hunters at 2 weeks each in camp.
So on average each hunt can go from 35k to 45 k per nonresident alien in US dollars. So even at 35k that's 105,000 USD for 6 weeks on the mountain.
No now idea as to weather he does horseback or backpack hunts but either way his hunter is not coming back to town each night to spend 150 on a hotel, or buy meals in a local restaurant supporting our local economy and businesses.
At best he might have a hotel on his flight in and out Before and after his hunt. Maybe a couple meals as well.
So to guide 3 guys for 6 weeks and let them possibly shoot a squeaker ram, which is all he is seems to show on his website he potentially makes over 130k in 6 weeks minus a few mountain house meals of course.
So tell me now how much our greedy apos outfitters feed into our economy.
And now they want to restrict residents so naturally that 35 to 45k will go up as they would have no resident competition.
So I can see how they want to slap us in the face to protect the big money they make each fall.

Absolute greed is what's driving them.
Let's just hope something can be done for the sheep on our Alberta mountains instead of the outfitters pocket books.
Keep it together, Rob

[kujoseto]

http://www.apos.ab.ca/news/
Scroll down to Jan 14 2015.
Apparently $100 million to Alberta each year. Oil at $34/bbl does that in a day.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by bdub

Not for me. I happen to agree that full curl is the best option, not only for the health of the sheep herd but for the preservation of our sheep hunting heritage. I think there is plenty of scientific evidence that this is the best route to follow. And it also happens to be the fairest to all, and maintains hunting opprtunity for all.

I agree!

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by katts69

Just for example Neil Beeman, one of the supporters of the apos letter that started this whole thing.
From his website he said that he himself would be guiding only 3 bighorn hunts this year. 3 hunters at 2 weeks each in camp.
So on average each hunt can go from 35k to 45 k per nonresident alien in US dollars. So even at 35k that's 105,000 USD for 6 weeks on the mountain.
No now idea as to weather he does horseback or backpack hunts but either way his hunter is not coming back to town each night to spend 150 on a hotel, or buy meals in a local restaurant supporting our local economy and businesses.
At best he might have a hotel on his flight in and out Before and after his hunt. Maybe a couple meals as well.
So to guide 3 guys for 6 weeks and let them possibly shoot a squeaker ram, which is all he is seems to show on his website he potentially makes over 130k in 6 weeks minus a few mountain house meals of course.
So tell me now how much our greedy apos outfitters feed into our economy.
And now they want to restrict residents so naturally that 35 to 45k will go up as they would have no resident competition.
So I can see how they want to slap us in the face to protect the big money they make each fall.

Absolute greed is what's driving them.
Let's just hope something can be done for the sheep on our Alberta mountains instead of the outfitters pocket books.
Keep it together, Rob

Are you asking what it costs to run an outfit like this ? Do you really want to know what kind of a profit margin he would run ? Are you surprised a business would want to protect its interests ?

[SLH]

Originally Posted by kujoseto

http://www.apos.ab.ca/news/
Scroll down to Jan 14 2015.
Apparently $100 million to Alberta each year. Oil at $34/bbl does that in a day.

Yup about half that towards GDP.

Alberta's GDP was 339 billion in 2013.

A fraction of a drop in the bucket.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by kujoseto

http://www.apos.ab.ca/news/
Scroll down to Jan 14 2015.
Apparently $100 million to Alberta each year. Oil at $34/bbl does that in a day.

And I really wonder how much of that 100 stays in Alberta? There are some well known guides and outfitters that do hunting excursions to other countries paid for by there guiding work.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by nube

It does a heck of a lot more than that. A lot of you guys are missing my points but carry on.

What does APOS do for Alberta? I am ignorant to anything they have done or are doing, please enlighten me.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by huntwat

And I really wonder how much of that 100 stays in Alberta? There are some well known guides and outfitters that do hunting excursions to other countries paid for by there guiding work.

As opposed to the rest of Albertans who only spend their money in Country !!!

lol ! You boys sure can whine !!!

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by nube

Cutting back a handfull of tags from outfitters isn't going to take your priority 14 moose tag and magically make it so you can get a tag every 4 years. And if you could the same people would complain about that.

.

This is obviously directed at me.
And obviously you don't get my point.
Nobody ever said tags would go from 14 - 4. The point is, read carefully, No ONE person that is non-resident should have MORE opportunity than any resident for any species.

By the way its none of our business what other countries or provinces do, like many have said, residents first.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

As opposed to the rest of Albertans who only spend their money in Country !!!

lol ! You boys sure can whine !!!

Your so off base you're not even in the same ballpark.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by huntwat

Your so off base you're not even in the same ballpark.

You said some well known outfitters spend the money they make from guiding on guided hunting trips out of country.

I merely stated that some well known residents do the same.

My point was who the Fack cares ! lol

[SLH]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

As opposed to the rest of Albertans who only spend their money in Country !!!

lol ! You boys sure can whine !!!

Ya but none of us are pretending to be a major contributor to the economy.

Have you read that letter, and we're whining.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by kujoseto

http://www.apos.ab.ca/news/
Scroll down to Jan 14 2015.
Apparently $100 million to Alberta each year. Oil at $34/bbl does that in a day.

Residents contribute approx. 1000% more to the Alberta economy than outfitters.

Copy and paste:

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$Department/deptdocs.nsf/all/csi12823/$FILE/Volume-II-Hunting-May-15.pdf


This is not to diminish the economic value of outfitting, just to add some perspective.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by SLH

Ya but none of us are pretending to be a major contributor to the economy.

Have you read that letter, and we're whining.

I already stated my objections and distaste for the letter written. 100 million dollars is a major contributor that I don't want to see go anywhere. In these troubling economic times I don't think we should be throwing away any revenue streams. I know the people directly involved certainly don't want to see it go anywhere.

The whining comment had nothing to do with the letter, it was about the grasping at straws to come up with any excuse on the planet to further some people's beliefs that outfitters are the scourge of the province.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

I already stated my objections and distaste for the letter written. 100 million dollars is a major contributor that I don't want to see go anywhere. In these troubling economic times I don't think we should be throwing away any revenue streams. I know the people directly involved certainly don't want to see it go anywhere.

The whining comment had nothing to do with the letter, it was about the grasping at straws to come up with any excuse on the planet to further some people's beliefs that outfitters are the scourge of the province.

You're right Tork why pile on when that letter from the likes of the authors is evidence enough.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

I already stated my objections and distaste for the letter written. 100 million dollars is a major contributor that I don't want to see go anywhere. In these troubling economic times I don't think we should be throwing away any revenue streams. I know the people directly involved certainly don't want to see it go anywhere.

Even in these troubling times their economic impact amounts to nothing that another Tim Horton's couldn't offset.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by SLH

Even in these troubling times their economic impact amounts to nothing that another Tim Horton's couldn't offset.

A Tim Hortons ???

I think you need a refresher in economics sir !

I'm not sure the families of those involved in the industry would agree with your minimization of their chosen profession and its economic impact on them or the people they employ

[SLH]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

A Tim Hortons ???

I think you need a refresher in economics sir !

I'm not sure the families of those involved in the industry would agree with your minimization of their chosen profession and its economic impact on them or the people they employ

Maybe I don't agree with their minimization of the resident hunter in ths province.

The upside to this whole issue is we can stop all this phony united front BS and start dealing with both issues. Sheep Management and APOS allocations

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by SLH

Maybe I don't agree with their minimization of the resident hunter in ths province.

The upside to this whole issue is we can stop all this phony united front BS and start dealing with both issues. Sheep Management and APOS allocations

Well now is certainly time to strike while the iron is hot. Our current NDP government is well versed in crushing industry !!!

You all might get your wish after all