Way too many tags....again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Page 2

JRsMav · #31 10-22-2013, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gman1978

Wow!!!!!!!! Great news!!!!!! I live there and have hunted in that neck of the woods my whole life. Maybe it's going to be like the late 90's all over again!!

Not sure if i should be getting a hint of sarcasm or not. In case you missed it, i stated that individual first hand accounts cant be incorrectly percieved as overall fact. Im north of sedgewick. Live there yep. Hunt there my whole life yep. Seen more deer in past 2 years than the many many before, yes i have.

gman1978 · #32 10-22-2013, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRsMav

Not sure if i should be getting a hint of sarcasm or not. In case you missed it, i stated that individual first hand accounts cant be incorrectly percieved as overall fact. Im north of sedgewick. Live there yep. Hunt there my whole life yep. Seen more deer in past 2 years than the many many before, yes i have.

Good to here that you are seeing lots of deer. That's good news The winters of 2010 and 2012 were a real bugger on the deer populations in that area and I know that for a fact yep. Hopefully they are on the rebound.

justinO · #33 10-22-2013, 11:44 PM

What are the current populations for all big game species? And when was the last survey done? Last I herd we haven't had a survey done in many years. If some one has this information please let me know.
Thanks
Justin

packhuntr · #34 10-23-2013, 07:04 AM

Srd is attempting to kill all muledeer in se alberta. And somehow a small handful of annually succesful archers are killing too many deer? BS, how many guys in any selected wmu are proficient enough archers that they take a deer every year. And where are the numbers that show otherwise if guys wanna throw the bold statement that bow hunters are all killers?? The truth, there arent many. And what of it? Afew guys focus on the old in a herd,, tell me removal of old male deer is hard on herd dynamics or numbers,,, BS. Srd wants dead deer, bow hunters are not accomplishing this,,, we pay our own way through archery licence sales, we watch rifle tag numbers through the roof annually destroy our muledeer and devastate any healthy herd dynamic that may or may not slightly be hanging on,,, and yet we are somehow a problem and need to further be lightened up in the pockets in our persuit of challenging ourselves while in the field. Get real and get bent

H380 · #35 10-23-2013, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Srd is attempting to kill all muledeer in se alberta. And somehow a small handful of annually succesful archers are killing too many deer? BS, how many guys in any selected wmu are proficient enough archers that they take a deer every year. And where are the numbers that show otherwise if guys wanna throw the bold statement that bow hunters are all killers?? The truth, there arent many. And what of it? Afew guys focus on the old in a herd,, tell me removal of old male deer is hard on herd dynamics or numbers,,, BS. Srd wants dead deer, bow hunters are not accomplishing this,,, we pay our own way through archery licence sales, we watch rifle tag numbers through the roof annually destroy our muledeer and devastate any healthy herd dynamic that may or may not slightly be hanging on,,, and yet we are somehow a problem and need to further be lightened up in the pockets in our persuit of challenging ourselves while in the field. Get real and get bent

Nailed it pack ..No real required registration of kills = no real numbers .You've got the bios doing deer estimates and grizzly estimates ... wrong on both accounts .

packhuntr · #36 10-23-2013, 07:24 AM

If i knew how to drag this over id put it on the archrry muledeer thread, where i was intending it to go lol, woops! All good, im shy so its best i stay outa that one anyways

JRsMav · #37 10-23-2013, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Srd is attempting to kill all muledeer in se alberta. And somehow a small handful of annually succesful archers are killing too many deer? BS, how many guys in any selected wmu are proficient enough archers that they take a deer every year. And where are the numbers that show otherwise if guys wanna throw the bold statement that bow hunters are all killers?? The truth, there arent many. And what of it? Afew guys focus on the old in a herd,, tell me removal of old male deer is hard on herd dynamics or numbers,,, BS. Srd wants dead deer, bow hunters are not accomplishing this,,, we pay our own way through archery licence sales, we watch rifle tag numbers through the roof annually destroy our muledeer and devastate any healthy herd dynamic that may or may not slightly be hanging on,,, and yet we are somehow a problem and need to further be lightened up in the pockets in our persuit of challenging ourselves while in the field. Get real and get bent

Im thinking the culling in the SE areas of the province alone would JUSTIFY the bow draw packhuntr. With rifle draw wait times already at something like 5 or 6 years (Not 100% sure as I don't bother putting in for mule in the area due to the lower numbers than in previous history) it would be pretty hard to justify to the majority (rifle hunters) to further push back their timeframe. Even if guys bowhunting 232 are only having marginal success, that marginal success COULD potentially have a pretty big impact on a pretty dismal mule deer herd when speaking in terms of not just overall numbers but trophy quality as well. It is unfortunate that some zones went on draw for bow season, BUT you need to keep in mind that in some zones, and yes I would say 232 would be one of them, the success rate for archery is far above the 15% guideline. That's not backed with factual stats by any means, but I am a local so word gets around, along with the fact I spend on average 60 days actually hunting every year not including my year round scouting, I can state for fact that I know of many 'trophy' line animals taken the past 3 seasons. I have personally watched 4 very quality animals throughout the year only to have them get harvested by bow hunters prior to rifle season. WIth that being said, Ive also watched rifle hunters drop doe after doe after fawn after forkhorn yadda yadda yadda. Point is, as much of a crock as it seems on the surface, in some zones it MIGHT just help that little bit to speed things up as far as recovery goes. I still long for the days when Mule deer of considerable size were almost a hinderance while out hunting whitetail and moose. *sigh*

Okotokian · #38 10-23-2013, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trophyboy

Some good points being made from both sides of this but the bottom line is we had 2 back to back winters that devastated deer herds along with the ridiculous CWD culls in several zones. These deer herds do not recover in 2 years, that is just simple common sense....unless your from Okotoks and have 15705 posts and spend all day with your obese hiney on AO trying to be smart. Also, anyone who knows anything about wildlife management knows you need several year classes to sustain a healthy herd and yes that means trophy bucks as well.

I grew up in the southeast part of the province and know pretty well every landowner within a 60 mile radius of where I grew up. I know pretty well every cactus by name and spend alot of time afield, probably more than anyone I know. I actually do care about the entire herd and it's sustainabilty, otherwise I wouldn't bother trying to talk sense into most of the metrosexuals who frequent this site. Kinda comical though that some imbecile with 15705 posts knows so much about our deer herds. 15705 posts....really????????????? LOL

Awwww trophyboy don't like it when someone disagrees with him or challenges him. You have to resort to insults? C'mon, that's the natural reaction of those without an actual argument or reply. Next time throw in something about my mom too.

Again, don't care if you give names to every cactus you know. Come up with some data please. You said they gave out more tags than actual animals. Data. Otherwise it's just your guess or opinion, and you shouldn't be shocked or offended or lash out when everyone doesn't agree with you. It's a forum. Debating is what we do. Give it a try.

Drop_Tine · #39 10-23-2013, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRsMav

Im thinking the culling in the SE areas of the province alone would JUSTIFY the bow draw packhuntr. With rifle draw wait times already at something like 5 or 6 years (Not 100% sure as I don't bother putting in for mule in the area due to the lower numbers than in previous history) it would be pretty hard to justify to the majority (rifle hunters) to further push back their timeframe. Even if guys bowhunting 232 are only having marginal success, that marginal success COULD potentially have a pretty big impact on a pretty dismal mule deer herd when speaking in terms of not just overall numbers but trophy quality as well. It is unfortunate that some zones went on draw for bow season, BUT you need to keep in mind that in some zones, and yes I would say 232 would be one of them, the success rate for archery is far above the 15% guideline. That's not backed with factual stats by any means, but I am a local so word gets around, along with the fact I spend on average 60 days actually hunting every year not including my year round scouting, I can state for fact that I know of many 'trophy' line animals taken the past 3 seasons. I have personally watched 4 very quality animals throughout the year only to have them get harvested by bow hunters prior to rifle season. WIth that being said, Ive also watched rifle hunters drop doe after doe after fawn after forkhorn yadda yadda yadda. Point is, as much of a crock as it seems on the surface, in some zones it MIGHT just help that little bit to speed things up as far as recovery goes. I still long for the days when Mule deer of considerable size were almost a hinderance while out hunting whitetail and moose. *sigh*

Putting archery on draw ain't gonna speed up the recovery !! Serious ?? This is a cover up for the unreal amount of buck tags SRD gave out in the previous years , now the numbers are hurting , so since SRD doesn't wanna admit they were wrong in give In issuing all these tags , they say bow hunter are hurting the population .... Flashback , 1. SRD culls all these zones for CWD ( ( shoot 3 does earn a buck ) ,than 2. Give ridiculous buck and does tags out ... Ohhhh now its bow hunters hurting the population , I don't understand how people can't see what happening here !!!

What will speed up the recovery is cutting back on the rifle buck and doe tags , plain and simple and u should know this! For EXAMPLE if they give 100 rifle buck tags , 15 archers have to shoot a buck or a doe to make the 15% ... Buuuutttttt since they don't just give out buck tags and now u have 100 rifle buck tags and 150 rifle doe tags which is 250 tags , who's hurting the deer population more on a already low number of deer !!

The archery guys ???

Drop_Tine · #40 10-23-2013, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Awwww trophyboy don't like it when someone disagrees with him or challenges him. You have to resort to insults? C'mon, that's the natural reaction of those without an actual argument or reply. Next time throw in something about my mom too.

Again, don't care if you give names to every cactus you know. Come up with some data please. You said they gave out more tags than actual animals. Data. Otherwise it's just your guess or opinion, and you shouldn't be shocked or offended or lash out when everyone doesn't agree with you. It's a forum. Debating is what we do. Give it a try.

OKot ... Your one to talk look at the other thread your yapping on ... I challenged you to give data to your theory and nope you haven't yet .... Flipping computer hypocrite !!!

walking buffalo · #41 10-23-2013, 09:35 AM

Drop tine,

Doe harvest was not and is not included in the Antlered Mule Deer harvest stats used for the Archery/General Antlered MD weapon draws.

Trophyboy,

As this is your thread about "Too Many Tags", give us an example of what you are talking about. Or is this thread just hot air....

I'll ask again.

To get an understanding of what "too many tags" means to you, what percentage of the population should be available for harvest in a season?

For an example, if the MD population in wmu XXX is estimated at 1000 with a ratio of 50 Bucks: 100 Does: 75 Fawns, What number of Buck (Antlered) tags to do think is acceptable using a success rate of 50%?

Which wmus in particular concern you as having "too many tags" available for Residents?

Don K · #42 10-23-2013, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drop_Tine

OKot ... Your one to talk look at the other thread your yapping on ... I challenged you to give data to your theory and nope you haven't yet .... Flipping computer hypocrite !!!

Yep! There's a few on here for sure...
I liked a while back when someone called them cityiots, but there's a few in the country too. Lol
Our whole system is flawed, from draws, outfitters, 'resident' hunters, First Nations, SRD, biologists... and on and on.
I don't have the answers, suggestions and opinions I'm full of. But for anyone who thinks OUR resources are well managed please take a deep breath before reinserting your head up your a**.

There are to many special interest groups pulling in different directions. As I said before there'll be a complete collapse with our wildlife before there are changes. The way things are headed it may be sooner than later for much of the province.

Drop_Tine · #43 10-23-2013, 09:52 AM

Dale

I know that ... Just putting the numbers in perspective on what/who is hurting the numbers !!

I don't know how the frick u want someone to explained to many tags , when SRD can't even come up with the proper archery/ rifle harvest numbers ... Lol .... Serious ???

JRsMav · #44 10-23-2013, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drop_Tine

Putting archery on draw ain't gonna speed up the recovery !! Serious ?? This is a cover up for the unreal amount of buck tags SRD gave out in the previous years , now the numbers are hurting , so since SRD doesn't wanna admit they were wrong in give In issuing all these tags , they say bow hunter are hurting the population .... Flashback , 1. SRD culls all these zones for CWD ( ( shoot 3 does earn a buck ) ,than 2. Give ridiculous buck and does tags out ... Ohhhh now its bow hunters hurting the population , I don't understand how people can't see what happening here !!!

What will speed up the recovery is cutting back on the rifle buck and doe tags , plain and simple and u should know this! For EXAMPLE if they give 100 rifle buck tags , 15 archers have to shoot a buck or a doe to make the 15% ... Buuuutttttt since they don't just give out buck tags and now u have 100 rifle buck tags and 150 rifle doe tags which is 250 tags , who's hurting the deer population more on a already low number of deer !!

The archery guys ???

youre completely missing my point. I never said it was or wasn't a cover up. Never did say that SRD didn't screw up. What I did say in a round about manner was that a bow draw in a zone devasted by mule harvest numbers might not help much, but it certainly wont hurt it anymore. If youre a bow hunter lead by example. I try to! I don't bother with mule. Quit pouting and spewing off about how its unfair its unfair blah blah blah. Ever think that maybe if the bow community acted like civilized adults / grown men and women on the matter that maybe just maybe it would set an example to rifle hunters to push for their own reduction? might be wishful thinking sure, but frankly youre vouching for the lesser of two evils. Quit using the old 'I shouldn't be punished because I only stole a can pop and timmy over there stole 4' argument. Its a gutless angle to take. Accept SOME responsibility for debaucle that not only SRD created, but outdoorsmen as well.

JRsMav · #45 10-23-2013, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don K

Yep! There's a few on here for sure...
I liked a while back when someone called them cityiots, but there's a few in the country too. Lol
Our whole system is flawed, from draws, outfitters, 'resident' hunters, First Nations, SRD, biologists... and on and on.
I don't have the answers, suggestions and opinions I'm full of. But for anyone who thinks OUR resources are well managed please take a deep breath before reinserting your head up your a**.

There are to many special interest groups pulling in different directions. As I said before there'll be a complete collapse with our wildlife before there are changes. The way things are headed it may be sooner than later for much of the province.

great point Don! And that's pretty much my point too! Everyone in the outdoors community has the tendency to list off numerous 'reasons as to why our deer herds are in shambles'. No one EVER admits that whether they are first nations, rifle hunters, trappers, employees of SRD.....or BOWHUNTERS, we are all part of the problem.

Drop_Tine · #46 10-23-2013, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don K

Yep! There's a few on here for sure...
I liked a while back when someone called them cityiots, but there's a few in the country too. Lol
Our whole system is flawed, from draws, outfitters, 'resident' hunters, First Nations, SRD, biologists... and on and on.
I don't have the answers, suggestions and opinions I'm full of. But for anyone who thinks OUR resources are well managed please take a deep breath before reinserting your head up your a**.

There are to many special interest groups pulling in different directions. As I said before there'll be a complete collapse with our wildlife before there are changes. The way things are headed it may be sooner than later for much of the province.

Yes for sure , really worries me for our future generations , on where everything is going !! And how fast its happening

I said I wouldnt chime in on these talks cause really nothing will change ! But I guess I can't help myself ! And really have refrained from doing so the last year or 2 . Guess its frustration in this system.

Drop_Tine · #47 10-23-2013, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRsMav

youre completely missing my point. I never said it was or wasn't a cover up. Never did say that SRD didn't screw up. What I did say in a round about manner was that a bow draw in a zone devasted by mule harvest numbers might not help much, but it certainly wont hurt it anymore. If youre a bow hunter lead by example. I try to! I don't bother with mule. Quit pouting and spewing off about how its unfair its unfair blah blah blah. Ever think that maybe if the bow community acted like civilized adults / grown men and women on the matter that maybe just maybe it would set an example to rifle hunters to push for their own reduction? might be wishful thinking sure, but frankly youre vouching for the lesser of two evils. Quit using the old 'I shouldn't be punished because I only stole a can pop and timmy over there stole 4' argument. Its a gutless angle to take. Accept SOME responsibility for debaucle that not only SRD created, but outdoorsmen as well.

Never said it was unfair to me !! I've said the deer numbers arnt hurting from bow hunters !! And there shouldn't be so many rifle tags issued !! Obviously you have a issue with bow hunters !!

But Ok ... You win !

It's Alberta boys take what you can when you can !! Quote from pachuntr
Best thing I've heard to describe this Alberta system !!

Don't gotta look to Far East to see what albertas resources could be !!

Sledhead71 · #48 10-23-2013, 10:34 AM

Lets talk too many tags then....

The position our management side needs to look at is simply this...

Maintain a post-hunting season buck : doe ratio at or above 20 / 100. Pending on habitat and area, this will determine the actual over all carrying capacity of the WMU.

It is important to remember that as a general wildlife management principle, antlerless harvest targets are set to achieve desired deer population levels, while buck harvest targets are set to achieve desired buck : doe ratios.

Pretty simple actually.. I do not have the numbers, but these standards are what creates a balance and health of this species we are discussing...

Looking at the archery side of things, to simply estimate based on numbers of archery permits to determine the success rate and limit opportunities in my opinion is wrong....

Our system needs a serious overhaul, transparency and accountability will provide future opportunities, until this is a common practice, well we will all be left to wonder about the future of our passion.

In my opinion, anyone who purchases a tag for any species should have to either hand in the unused tag or supply harvest data in order to accurately determine "numbers", not speculate.. If you DO NOT hand in unused tags or provide harvest data, well then YOU are excluded from the following seasons draw and loose any and all priority.. Bet we see some actual hard numbers and then and only then make decisions based on facts and not speculation.. This would apply to land owner and outfitters as well....

JRsMav · #49 10-23-2013, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drop_Tine

Never said it was unfair to me !! I've said the deer numbers arnt hurting from bow hunters !! And there shouldn't be so many rifle tags issued !! Obviously you have a issue with bow hunters !!

But Ok ... You win !

It's Alberta boys take what you can when you can !! Quote from pachuntr
Best thing I've heard to describe this Alberta system !!

Don't gotta look to Far East to see what albertas resources could be !!

If I have an issue with bow hunters I guess I have an issue with myself?

That was my point when I stated I try to lead by example and haven't bothered with mule (bow or rifle) for almost 5 years now.

Drop_Tine · #50 10-23-2013, 10:40 AM

Yup !!

Drop_Tine · #51 10-23-2013, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRsMav

If I have an issue with bow hunters I guess I have an issue with myself?

That was my point when I stated I try to lead by example and haven't bothered with mule (bow or rifle) for almost 5 years now.

So your saying you haven't hunted mulies in 5 years due to the low numbers ?

JRsMav · #52 10-23-2013, 10:47 AM

That is exactly what Im saying yes. Might actually even be longer.

Drop_Tine · #53 10-23-2013, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRsMav

I hear the same griping and complaining in my zone oko (232). for two years all ive heard from many locals and guys that solely hunt in the zone is that there are no deer left. Big deer don't exist here anymore. and mule deer are extinct in the zone as well. those are usually the same guys that base their opinions on deer herds on how many sightings they have roadside on the way to work in the morning. Ive personally found its quite the opposite and have seen more deer the last couple years than I ever have and larger more quality deer as well. But neither could be strewn as factual as theyre only personal first hand accounts.

But yet you say this

Drop_Tine · #54 10-23-2013, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRsMav

Not sure if i should be getting a hint of sarcasm or not. In case you missed it, i stated that individual first hand accounts cant be incorrectly percieved as overall fact. Im north of sedgewick. Live there yep. Hunt there my whole life yep. Seen more deer in past 2 years than the many many before, yes i have.

And this

Drop_Tine · #55 10-23-2013, 11:00 AM

One statement there's all these deer , next statement there's no deer and you don't hunt , but yet u post on the Internet 232 has a lot of deer !! I done talking to subordinates !!

This is my last post

JRsMav · #56 10-23-2013, 11:02 AM

and your point is? Did you bother reading the whole quote before you posted it? I clearly stated my own first hand account of deer numbers in my area is far from being statistical factual data. The fact I personally have seen more deer than I personally had in the years prior has absolutely no bearing on what the factual data states. I was drawing a correlation to guys stating theres no deer around, or vice versa that theres tons of deer around, on their own personal experience which holds absolutely no weight whatsoever when it comes to recordable data and truth.

You conveniently left out my post stating I miss the 90's where mule were seemingly so prevalent they almost got in the way. Yes I have not bothered to hunt mule deer with any tool solely based on the fact mule deer numbers, from my viewpoint, aren't even close to where they were back then. Today, again from my viewpoint, doing better than the previous two years though.

Any other posts you would like me to pick apart or are you done now?

Okotokian · #57 10-23-2013, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drop_Tine

OKot ... Your one to talk look at the other thread your yapping on ... I challenged you to give data to your theory and nope you haven't yet .... Flipping computer hypocrite !!!

Which thread and theory is that? And what I'm pointing to is his throwing insults around when challenged. Please quote me where I call anyone an imbecile.

JRsMav · #58 10-23-2013, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drop_Tine

One statement there's all these deer , next statement there's no deer and you don't hunt , but yet u post on the Internet 232 has a lot of deer !! I done talking to subordinates !!

This is my last post

lol The bolded text is exactly why many many rifle hunters cant stand certain factions of the bow community man. Far too many bow hunters have that exact view. Im happy to say I don't. You literally should be ashamed of yourself for having an attitude like that.

Sledhead71 · #59 10-23-2013, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRsMav

lol The bolded text is exactly why many many rifle hunters cant stand certain factions of the bow community man. Far too many bow hunters have that exact view. Im happy to say I don't. You literally should be ashamed of yourself for having an attitude like that.

Actually our community should be ashamed of how we eat our own, PERIOD !

To me, doesn't matter weapon choice and to continue to divide our passion will only assist in eliminating our opportunities...

We need to suck it up and band together, all this infighting is like corrosion, it eats away until your left with nothing...

I am so glad I am old enough not to have had the internet when I was introduced to the outdoors, the future generations are being led by technology and not mentors like the good old days.

packhuntr · #60 10-23-2013, 11:14 AM

His statement Jrsmav has nothing to do with bow vs rifle guys. It has everything to do with marginal part time outdoorsfolk digging thier heels in on things they have not a red sniff about. There it is, thats it, thats all, and its a big problem when guys wanna talk about the issues.