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10-17-2020, 10:02 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 379
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Except for the fact when they got their win they said yes to having taking a course here or elsewhere. If you try and work around the system because a 100 course is to much effort then you deserve the penalty when caught.
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10-17-2020, 10:12 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
Posts: 15,662
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The way that regulation is written, go to the prosecutor and see if they will wipe the ticket. I doubt they want to test this as the precedent will kill future cases. If they won't cancel the ticket go to court. The booklet varies from the Wildlife Act so she has good arguments. The Crown cannot argue what they meant to say, only what it actually does say.
Recreational licences — eligibility
29(1) A person is eligible to obtain or hold a recreational licence if
and only if that person is an individual who has not had any right to
hunt, other than by means of traps, or to obtain or hold a
recreational licence, suspended or cancelled under the laws of
another jurisdiction and who
(a) is
(i) at least 14 years of age,
(ii) 13 years of age, if the recreational licence is a special
licence and the 13-year old will reach the age of 14
years before the end of the open season during which
the licence is valid,
(iii) 11, 12 or 13 years of age if
(A) he has completed the Alberta Conservation and
Hunter Education Program or is a non-resident
or non-resident alien who hunts with another
individual referred to in subsection (2), and
(B) repealed AR 105/2002 s9,
(C) in the case of an 11-year old, the recreational
licence is a special licence and the 11-year old
will reach the age of 12 years before the end of
the open season during which the licence is
valid,
or
(iv) 10 years of age if
(A) the recreational licence is a game bird licence,
and
(B) the 10-year old has completed the Alberta
Conservation and Hunter Education Program or
has achieved an equivalent certification in
another jurisdiction,
(b) in the case of an individual who is under 16 years of age,
is authorized in writing by his parent or legal guardian to
hold that licence,
(c) subject to subsection (2), has
(i) achieved such mark in an examination approved by
the Minister as is fixed by the Minister,
Section 29 AR 143/97
WILDLIFE REGULATION
(ii) held a licence authorizing recreational hunting in
Alberta or elsewhere, or
(iii) passed a test approved by the Minister respecting
hunting competency,
before applying for the licence,
(d) has written the examination, and achieved the mark,
referred to in clause (c)(i) after the beginning of the
suspension if his recreational licence or his right to hold
one has been suspended in accordance with section 19 or
101 of the Act, and
(e) has been assigned a valid wildlife identification number.
(2) Subsection (1)(c) does not apply to a non-resident or a
non-resident alien who hunts accompanied by another individual
who
(a) is a designated guide,
(b) is a hunter host, or
(c) meets the requirements of subsection (1)(c) and, if
applicable, (d).
(3)
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10-17-2020, 10:17 AM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Cox
Actually, that is the clearest I've ever seen this.
If you haven't taken the course, you are considered a first time hunter.
As a first time hunter, you are required to take the course.
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Did you read your own post?
This part in particular;
Quote:
or 2) has not prior to April 1, 2010, met Alberta first-time hunter criteria,
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Prior to April 1 2010 I did not meet the criteria for a first time hunter, because I had held a hunting license for the past 40+ years.
The OR tells me any of the statements in the quote apply.
Which means, if you follow what the rest of your quote, after April 1 2010 I would be considered a first time hunter and would require proof I passed the hunter education course, which I have not.
No wonder people find it confusing.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.
George Bernard Shaw
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10-17-2020, 10:22 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjolg123
Except for the fact when they got their win they said yes to having taking a course here or elsewhere. If you try and work around the system because a 100 course is to much effort then you deserve the penalty when caught.
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Lots of other legalities contain grandfather clauses. Government loves them. Ill take the 75 year old hunter with 60 years of experience and no "course" over the " hi I'm new to the country/province and took a hunter safety course any day, all day long.
A farm kid thats had a .22 in his hands since he got out of diapers needs a safety course at 35? I call BS. They don't teach common sense and how to stay calm and not wet your pants when you see an animal in these courses. Experience counts.
Its all about money anyways. Its government.
Do the "special" hunters have to take the course too? Id bet not. Their course was probably passed down from many generations of hunters before them.
Last edited by 270person; 10-17-2020 at 10:44 AM.
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10-17-2020, 10:23 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: 204
Posts: 5,617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KegRiver
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No wonder people find it confusing.
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I think we can all agree on that part.
__________________
I don't think our taxes should be this high.
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10-17-2020, 10:27 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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I think the Officer was trying to teach someone a lesson. She readily admitted that she had not passed the Hunter Ed course ,as was req d at that time she purchased her first License. That technically makes her unqualified to harvest any wildlife in Alberta from that time forward. I agree, it`s a pretty grey area but The CO charged her regardless. She has to try and dig her own way out and thats going to cost her some time & $$$$. Good move on the Officers part.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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10-17-2020, 10:33 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: 204
Posts: 5,617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
You are conveniently ignoring the words between your two bolded texts, and those words make your interpretation incorrect.
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You have edited this post at least twice. (Once to add in the pointing and laughing emoji)
I thought we were trying to have a back and forth discussion to try and figure this thing out.
Editing your post after someone has answered to it doesn't help anything.
__________________
I don't think our taxes should be this high.
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10-17-2020, 10:39 AM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjolg123
Except for the fact when they got their win they said yes to having taking a course here or elsewhere. If you try and work around the system because a 100 course is to much effort then you deserve the penalty when caught.
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How do we know she answered yes to having taken the course?
If she were new to licensed hunting she may well have misunderstood any of the questions and answered incorrectly without knowing it.
For all we know she may have been hunting gophers for years and may have thought that made her eligible for exemption.
If we are going to speculate on her motives can't we at least speculate in her favor?
Why do we need to lynch every fellow hunter with little or nothing to base our prosecution on.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.
George Bernard Shaw
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10-17-2020, 10:52 AM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
I think the Officer was trying to teach someone a lesson. She readily admitted that she had not passed the Hunter Ed course ,as was req d at that time she purchased her first License. That technically makes her unqualified to harvest any wildlife in Alberta from that time forward. I agree, it`s a pretty grey area but The CO charged her regardless. She has to try and dig her own way out and thats going to cost her some time & $$$$. Good move on the Officers part.
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And what did he teach her? To not trust F&W to be reasonable perhaps?
To fear them for sure.
What do you think she'll do in the future if she sees someone poaching? If I were her I wouldn't report it, because I could wind up being charged for some other mistake I made.
Clearly she made a mistake. If she were trying to get away with anything she would not have readily admitted she had not passed the course. That's not how law breakers operate.
Good law enforcement is about more then enforcing the letter of the law.
The intent of the law must also be considered.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.
George Bernard Shaw
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10-17-2020, 11:12 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Red Deer, Alberta
Posts: 2,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMichaud
Licensing requirements for first-time hunters
NOTE: all new first-time hunters who have qualified for obtaining recreational hunting licences by successfully completing the Alberta Conservation and Hunter education course, will be required to provide on their WiN profile, their hunter certificate number that is issued to each course graduate, in order to be eligible to purchase a hunting licence.
A first-time hunter is a hunter who 1) has not previously held a hunting licence in Alberta or elsewhere, or 2) has not prior to April 1, 2010, met Alberta first-time hunter criteria, or 3) has not successfully completed a hunter education course in Alberta or elsewhere.
Non-resident and non-resident alien hunters (12 years of age or older) are exempt from the first-time hunter eligibility requirement if they are accompanied by a Hunter Host or a Designated Guide while hunting in Alberta.
This is so poorly worded...I am still trying to understand what they mean here.
What actually was the criteria for an Alberta first-time hunter prior to April 1, 2010?
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Like others have pointed out. “Or” means one OR the other.
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10-17-2020, 11:14 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KegRiver
And what did he teach her? To not trust F&W to be reasonable perhaps?
To fear them for sure.
What do you think she'll do in the future if she sees someone poaching? If I were her I wouldn't report it, because I could wind up being charged for some other mistake I made.
Clearly she made a mistake. If she were trying to get away with anything she would not have readily admitted she had not passed the course. That's not how law breakers operate.
Good law enforcement is about more then enforcing the letter of the law.
The intent of the law must also be considered.
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After she was interviewed by the Officer, I`ll bet he gleaned enough info from her to warrant the ticket. From here on she has two choices.. pay the ticket or let the Court decide. Either way she pays for her error.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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10-17-2020, 11:39 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 871
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First thing, why not take the course? It's online, I've known plenty of 12 year olds who have taken it and had no trouble passing. It's neither difficult or all that time consuming. If it's a financial issue, AHIEA let's you pay what you can afford.
Second, maybe she could fight it in court and have it thrown out. But it was $120 fine? How does that make financial sense? Besides, she's probably already taken the online course since deer season is either underway for her or starting very soon, so again, you're gonna waste a day in court over $120?
Third, Facebook. Jeezus H Chris! The CO's favorite and most effective tool for catching poachers. This part makes me chuckle, then she voluntarily goes in to discuss the issue with the CO.... Reminds me of how they tell a criminal he's won a prize, come get it, then arrest him.
Fourth, same as the first. TAKE THE DAMN COURSE. You're not special, the rest of us did it.
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10-17-2020, 12:02 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 379
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I agree no need to Lynch but it seems pretty straight forward when filling out the form that was pre 2010
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
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10-17-2020, 12:04 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Cox
You have edited this post at least twice. (Once to add in the pointing and laughing emoji)
I thought we were trying to have a back and forth discussion to try and figure this thing out.
Editing your post after someone has answered to it doesn't help anything.
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Actually, I went back into my post and edited it, while you were replying. I didn't see your reply until I had finished editing my post.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-17-2020, 12:45 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Beijing, Canada
Posts: 1,469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjolg123
I agree no need to Lynch but it seems pretty straight forward when filling out the form that was pre 2010
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
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OK - hard to make it out but effectively to be eligible pre-2010 then you needed to not be suspended and
must be one of the following
previously held a license in Alberta or elsewhere
or
passed the first time hunter test
or
have successfully completed a hunter education test in Alberta or elsewhere
or
you are a non-res or non-res alien hunting with a guide.
The first option box offers that to hunt you did not need a course the way I read it. Now after 1 April 2010 perhaps that changed to being mandatory to have a Hunter Ed course?
__________________
#defundtheCBC
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10-17-2020, 01:23 PM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jjolg123
I agree no need to Lynch but it seems pretty straight forward when filling out the form that was pre 2010
Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
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You are right, very straight forward. She has no excuse.
It's not possible to misunderstand anything on that form.
Strangely enough, on these threads we frequently get experienced hunters asking about details of the regulations that they do not understand.
But that's different isn't it. They are legally licensed, so they are allowed to not understand ever single aspect of common hunting laws.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=389088
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.
George Bernard Shaw
Last edited by KegRiver; 10-17-2020 at 01:49 PM.
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10-17-2020, 01:33 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KegRiver
You are right, very straight forward. She has no excuse.
It's not possible to misunderstand anything on that form.
Strangely enough, on these threads we frequently get experienced hunters asking about details of the regulations that they do not understand.
But that's different isn't it. They are legally licensed, so they are allowed to not understand ever single aspect of common hunting laws.
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I think if she really didn`t understand what was indicated on that form, that would have been the time to ask for an interpretation on Facebook .
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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10-17-2020, 01:42 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Cox
I have heard a few stories of people being given a ticket for every license they've held without having their hunters ed course.
If someone who has been hunting for two decades gets their course today, that's still 20 years of licenses without the course. Are they still going to get fined for those? What if they decide its not worth the trouble, and stop hunting?
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Seems to me there is some kind of date specified somewhere in there, though admittedly, it is clear as mud. Fines can add up though. This young guy and his buddies were into both rifle and archery. Young single guys. So, in his pocket he would have an elk tag every year (open for archery in his wmu), 3 Whitetail, and Mule Deer (again archery). That's 5 tags a year. IIRC, he was hunting for about 4 years at the time. Fine was substantial. I have no idea what the max fine is, but kinda sounds to me like that is what they gave him. So much easier to do it the right way. Course is $100, and while some of it seems not that applicable, it is an interesting course, as I have went through it with my son and daughter.
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10-17-2020, 01:43 PM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
I think if she really didn`t understand what was indicated on that form, that would have been the time to ask for an interpretation on Facebook .
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Of course it would have been.
None of us have ever thought we had it right, when we didn't. We always know we made a mistake, when we make it.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=389088
Why are you guys grasping at straws to try to lynch this woman.
What's in it for you?
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.
George Bernard Shaw
Last edited by KegRiver; 10-17-2020 at 01:50 PM.
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10-17-2020, 01:49 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,595
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As to the OP's question... she was 100% in the wrong. If in doubt, ask a question to the licence issuer. Not much more to say than that.
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10-17-2020, 01:51 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
Posts: 15,662
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You guys also need to learn to read. If she really has been licensed since 2008 then she did not need to take the course to be eligible to buy further hunting licenses, and the truly stupid part, if she had a single hunting license anywhere outside Alberta she is eligible to buy a license here without taking the course even now. You are confusing poorly thought out government regulations with something that actually makes sense.
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10-17-2020, 01:54 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KegRiver
You are right, very straight forward. She has no excuse.
It's not possible to misunderstand anything on that form.
Strangely enough, on these threads we frequently get experienced hunters asking about details of the regulations that they do not understand.
But that's different isn't it. They are legally licensed, so they are allowed to not understand ever single aspect of common hunting laws.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=389088
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She claims to have held a license in 2008, which is prior to 2010 . If that is the case she doesn't need an excuse, because she meets the requirements specified on the form in your quote. The only question is to whether there is proof that she held the license in 2008.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-17-2020, 01:59 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
After she was interviewed by the Officer, I`ll bet he gleaned enough info from her to warrant the ticket. From here on she has two choices.. pay the ticket or let the Court decide. Either way she pays for her error.
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She made no error. She is eligible to hold a license in Alberta. The only mistake she made was showing up to visit F&W without a Lawyer.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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10-17-2020, 02:00 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean2
You guys also need to learn to read. If she really has been licensed since 2008 then she did not need to take the course to be eligible to buy further hunting licenses, and the truly stupid part, if she had a single hunting license anywhere outside Alberta she is eligible to buy a license here without taking the course even now. You are confusing poorly thought out government regulations with something that actually makes sense.
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Exactly.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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10-17-2020, 02:01 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2
Seems to me there is some kind of date specified somewhere in there, though admittedly, it is clear as mud. Fines can add up though. This young guy and his buddies were into both rifle and archery. Young single guys. So, in his pocket he would have an elk tag every year (open for archery in his wmu), 3 Whitetail, and Mule Deer (again archery). That's 5 tags a year. IIRC, he was hunting for about 4 years at the time. Fine was substantial. I have no idea what the max fine is, but kinda sounds to me like that is what they gave him. So much easier to do it the right way. Course is $100, and while some of it seems not that applicable, it is an interesting course, as I have went through it with my son and daughter.
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The date specified is 2010, which is only 10 years ago, so they can't get fined for 20 years of licenses. If they held a license 20 years ago, they meet the first requirement listed on the pre 2010 form that has been posted. If F&W has evidence proving 20years of licenses, they have proof that the person was eligible to hold licenses as of 2010.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-17-2020, 02:08 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean2
You guys also need to learn to read. If she really has been licensed since 2008 then she did not need to take the course to be eligible to buy further hunting licenses, and the truly stupid part, if she had a single hunting license anywhere outside Alberta she is eligible to buy a license here without taking the course even now. You are confusing poorly thought out government regulations with something that actually makes sense.
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The story does not hold water, Dean. A person's complete history in terms of both holding hunting / fishing licences, applying for draws, and purchasing tags, is a few clicks of the mouse away for any CO. I know this for an absolute fact, as I went into F & W a few years ago and asked them to print off my history for me. The secretary was happy to do that for me. In my case, their computer records went back to 1991, I believe. I have it in a drawer in the garage. It is detailed, and lengthy. So, I find it really hard to believe that this is all there is to the story, I am not saying they don't make mistakes, but I think it would be a safe bet that the CO knew she was guilty of an offence, regardless of the poorly worded regulations.
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10-17-2020, 02:12 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
The date specified is 2010, which is only 10 years ago, so they can't get fined for 20 years of licenses. If they held a license 20 years ago, they meet the first requirement listed on the pre 2010 form that has been posted. If F&W has evidence proving 20years of licenses, they have proof that the person was eligible to hold licenses as of 2010.
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Apparently the CO thought otherwise and dealt with some facts. Hence, the ticket. Maybe she should get a Go Fund Me going.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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10-17-2020, 02:13 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
The date specified is 2010, which is only 10 years ago, so they can't get fined for 20 years of licenses. If they held a license 20 years ago, they meet the first requirement listed on the pre 2010 form that has been posted. If F&W has evidence proving 20years of licenses, they have proof that the person was eligible to hold licenses as of 2010.
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Where did 20 years come from? I never said anything about 20 years. You into the jungle juice???
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10-17-2020, 02:22 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2
Where did 20 years come from? I never said anything about 20 years. You into the jungle juice???
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You didn't specify 20 years, but this person did.
Quote:
I have heard a few stories of people being given a ticket for every license they've held without having their hunters ed course.
If someone who has been hunting for two decades gets their course today, that's still 20 years of licenses without the course. Are they still going to get fined for those? What if they decide its not worth the trouble, and stop hunting?
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__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-17-2020, 02:24 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
You didn't specify 20 years, but this person did.
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So why did you respond to my post with that?
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