Finland Collapse

[pittman]

The Canadian Healthcare system certainly isn't perfect and there are many areas where it can be improved to give Canadians better value for their money. It does, however, give every Canadian equal access to world class and evidence-based medicine.

Many people look to the fancy hospitals South of the border advertising no wait times and unlimited access to seemingly cutting edge interventions. Keep in mind that this is a profit-based system. They are there to take your money. It has also been shown that having multiple payers (US model) is much more expensive in terms of health care administrative costs (no value to patients) than a single payer system (Canada).

There also isn't much press for many of the American citizens who don't have access to insurance and can't pay for medical interventions.

In addition to this, most if not all of the metrics that we use to measure the health of a country are better here than in the US.

So, while many with minor ailments like to bemoan the wait lists here in Canada, the people who present with significant health care problems do get treated promptly with interventions that provide great value to both the patient, and the tax payer. And, like most things, you have to pay it forward. Hopefully everyone here will live to such an old age where they pay fewer taxes yet have the privilege of accessing the healthcare system that they've paid for their entire life.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by pittman

The Canadian Healthcare system certainly isn't perfect and there are many areas where it can be improved to give Canadians better value for their money. It does, however, give every Canadian equal access to world class and evidence-based medicine.

Many people look to the fancy hospitals South of the border advertising no wait times and unlimited access to seemingly cutting edge interventions. Keep in mind that this is a profit-based system. They are there to take your money. It has also been shown that having multiple payers (US model) is much more expensive in terms of health care administrative costs (no value to patients) than a single payer system (Canada).

There also isn't much press for many of the American citizens who don't have access to insurance and can't pay for medical interventions.

In addition to this, most if not all of the metrics that we use to measure the health of a country are better here than in the US.

So, while many with minor ailments like to bemoan the wait lists here in Canada, the people who present with significant health care problems do get treated promptly with interventions that provide great value to both the patient, and the tax payer. And, like most things, you have to pay it forward. Hopefully everyone here will live to such an old age where they pay fewer taxes yet have the privilege of accessing the healthcare system that they've paid for their entire life.

Our health care system most certainly does not give every Canadian equal access to services. Do you honestly think that a PM, premier, or other high ranking diplomat or politician waits like the average Canadian? If an NHL superstar needs an MRI, do you think he waits months like the rest of us?

[stubblejumper01]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Our health care system most certainly does not give every Canadian equal access to services. Do you honestly think that a PM, premier, or other high ranking diplomat or politician waits like the average Canadian? If an NHL superstar needs an MRI, do you think he waits months like the rest of us?

Too true. I remember before the Salt Lake City Olympics,Ryan Smyth was injured in a game right around Christmas time. He was in surgery before the end of that game getting patched up so he would heal in time for the Olympics.

[Digger1]

When I was working in the US our family health insurance was a lot less than we pay in taxes for healthcare up here. $400 a month for family of 5 in 2007. And when a kid wound up in hospital for a few days, the care was outstanding. Pretty much like a hotel, right from when we walked in at 1 am. Even gave mom a bed in the room with daughter. No complaints whatsoever.

[kevinhits]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Our health care system most certainly does not give every Canadian equal access to services. Do you honestly think that a PM, premier, or other high ranking diplomat or politician waits like the average Canadian? If an NHL superstar needs an MRI, do you think he waits months like the rest of us?

Nope, A Calgary Flame gets in asap as they are on call...

Nothing illegal about it as there are private MRI clinics around....You pay to play right away...

I agree if you have the money to pay, private health care is the way to go. It then will lessen the wait for the public care...

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Armorman

Well I certainly don't believe Trump is god. He is human after all and is not perfect. He is a damn good leader though. And to not only survive but flourish in the swamp during their massive leftist lame stream media onslaught on him and his family only proves that he has what it takes to operate under pressure. The exact leadership that has been missing from the Whitehouse for nearly a generation. Pretty much a complete opposite to the moron crime minister we currently have.

A lot of Canadians think trudeau is god. Enough said.

Bang on. The Donald is a protectionist. Wouldn't that be nice here?

In my lifetime I have never before seen the onslaught the left wing snowflakes dump on him, from talk shows to the news. Damn I hope he wins again just to see the leftnut heads explode.

[bsmitty27]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

The problem is most people can not afford it. get sick for real and see how much it costs in real money to get treatment

This past year ,my chemo drugs alone was in excess of $50,000 ,not including all the doctors appointments,Ct scans, MRIs and bloodwork in between.Probably add another $30,000+.
My surgery and subsequent 1.5 months stay in the hospital due to complications.I am sure hit over $200,000 conservatively. People think of healthcare in terms of checkups and yearly physicals but when things get serious they get expensive real fast.

I liked to talk the big game too when I was healthy but this past year has been a big reality check for me and I have no guarantees that this is the end of it .

x2
Glad to hear your doing good. ya its easy to talk tough while we are getting our family's taken care of without thinking about it, not fighting with insurance companies, never sure what will be covered and what won't, the added stress could make the difference of living or dying. I have family in the states, and yes they are super proud Americans, but watching the stress they are under dealing with major and minor medical issues is crazy. I wouldn't swap places for anything, My wife gave up her American Citizenship Proud Canadians we are!

Digger 1:
I would like to see how you got health insurance for a family of 5 for 400.00 a month, was that on top of employer contributions?

Our health care system is not perfect. But if you wake up one morning and are coughing blood, we as Canadians don't need to think about weather your insurance company will cover you for the $400,000.00 bill you could have, if it is Lung cancer.
And as for wait times from a rural community my wife got in to a CT at the location of her choice, in 2 weeks. and if we pushed harder we could of easily got in quicker. And the only thing we have been worrying about is her health and our family's happiness.

We live in a great country! Canada is amazing! Yes there is lots of room for improvement. And we should always be pushing to get better, But we have it good!

The other side of the river always seems like it would hold more fish, when you get there, it's true! The other side of the river seems like it would hold more fish!

Brad

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by lmtada

Lol. Martin Armstrong is, Top economist in the World.

Is your estimation based on his total lack of academic credentials or his several criminal convictions? Just saying, Bernie Madoff’s Ponzi scheme stole more money than his so if that’s your baseline....

[Sigg]

Originally Posted by lmtada

Lol. Martin Armstrong is, Top economist in the World. He voice valued by all governments worldwide (news good or bad). Martin does not take a side. Development of computer program that tracks how capital flows, is in demand by all governments. American government jailed him because Martin would not give the Socrates program to American government.

Sigg go back to your hole, wait for summer.

Lol. Are you his spokesperson? I checked his track record on the videos he has done on YouTube for the last ~3 months, some pretty BOLD predictions that sure as hell never came to fruition when he said they would! Sounds like him and Peter Schiff run the same kind of gig.

[Unregistered user]

A huge portion of the taxes we pay is absorbed by our "Free" healthcare. If our various corrupt governments would let go of that money and leave us to fend for ourselves we could choose between paying private insurance or saving our money like big boys, living a healthy lifestyle and paying cash for services needed. But governments seem to fear motivated independent people it would seem.

[ruffy71]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Our health care system most certainly does not give every Canadian equal access to services. Do you honestly think that a PM, premier, or other high ranking diplomat or politician waits like the average Canadian? If an NHL superstar needs an MRI, do you think he waits months like the rest of us?

I don't understand what you are worried about. There is lots of private care in Canada. Dentistry is private, pharmaceuticals are private, physiotherapy. You can pay for private diagnostics.

Like you mentioned, there is a massive private system right across the border. Nobody is stopping you.

Go ahead, hop on a plane, if you can afford to have your hip replaced privately, the cost of a ticket and a hotel isn't going to stop you. If Jesse Poolparty can zip down to the US for hip surgery, so can you. What's the problem?

I suppose you could argue you want your taxes back so you can spend on your health as you see fit. Ahhh there's the rub. Would you really like to strike that bargain? Be careful what you wish for.

[shootsblanks]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

I don't understand what you are worried about. There is lots of private care in Canada. Dentistry is private, pharmaceuticals are private, physiotherapy. You can pay for private diagnostics.

Like you mentioned, there is a massive private system right across the border. Nobody is stopping you.

Go ahead, hop on a plane, if you can afford to have your hip replaced privately, the cost of a ticket and a hotel isn't going to stop you. If Jesse Poolparty can zip down to the US for hip surgery, so can you. What's the problem?

I suppose you could argue you want your taxes back so you can spend on your health as you see fit. Ahhh there's the rub. Would you really like to strike that bargain? Be careful what you wish for.

I would, and my daughter was born with a kidney 3 times normal size, i would absolutly have preferred to pay out of pocket, but i already paid my taxes so why should i pay again?
Nobody is responsible for my families care except my family. If somebody wants to smoke, binge drink and eat mcdonalds 5 times a day while me and mine eat healthy food in reasonable portions, excercise and have glass of wine once a week, why should we need to pay for their choices?
Sure, nobody "chooses" to get sick, but its not your responsibility to have my child opened up so they can remove 2/3rds of her left kidney, and it isnt mine to pay for some morbidly obese smoker to have a gastric bypass to go with their triple bypass.

[ruffy71]

Originally Posted by shootsblanks

I would, and my daughter was born with a kidney 3 times normal size, i would absolutly have preferred to pay out of pocket, but i already paid my taxes so why should i pay again?
Nobody is responsible for my families care except my family. If somebody wants to smoke, binge drink and eat mcdonalds 5 times a day while me and mine eat healthy food in reasonable portions, excercise and have glass of wine once a week, why should we need to pay for their choices?
Sure, nobody "chooses" to get sick, but its not your responsibility to have my child opened up so they can remove 2/3rds of her left kidney, and it isnt mine to pay for some morbidly obese smoker to have a gastric bypass to go with their triple bypass.

Fair enough, but you represent a very small percentage of the population. And what seems to happen over and over again, is that even for people in the states wealthy enough for private insurance (providing better care than here in Canada), once you have one major health issue, they will exclude a million things, or your premiums go through the roof. Just like car insurance after a couple of accidents. The number of people that can skip insurance entirely and pay out of pocket is so low, we are going to plan a system to fit the 5% and not the 95%? Unless you are super rich, and can continue to pay out of pocket your whole life, nobody gets treated fairly. It's just a question of which system is the most reasonable, or closest to fair.

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by shootsblanks

I would, and my daughter was born with a kidney 3 times normal size, i would absolutly have preferred to pay out of pocket, but i already paid my taxes so why should i pay again?
Nobody is responsible for my families care except my family. If somebody wants to smoke, binge drink and eat mcdonalds 5 times a day while me and mine eat healthy food in reasonable portions, excercise and have glass of wine once a week, why should we need to pay for their choices?
Sure, nobody "chooses" to get sick, but its not your responsibility to have my child opened up so they can remove 2/3rds of her left kidney, and it isnt mine to pay for some morbidly obese smoker to have a gastric bypass to go with their triple bypass.

I assume you are just trying to play devils advocate. If not, you are either super rich or super naive. The average person would be put in the poorhouse pretty quickly in this country if they had to pay for any kind of serious illness out of pocket. It sounds like you believe only the wealthy should be entitled to a long life

Lots of people get sick in this country without the assistance of McDonalds , smoking and booze. Congrats on your healthy lifestyle , you should be commended. What if next week you are involved in a serious accident no fault of your own next week and you and your family spend the next year in medical care after numerous operations? Would you prefer to be paying that out of pocket or would you be interested in a safety net of some sort that takes care of you and your family regardless of whether you have the money or not. That is not a fantasy scenario,it happens to people all the time.

I'm about as Conservative as can be when it comes to politics but I'm smart enough to know that even with all of it's flaws ,our health system in Canada is probably the most necessary gov't interventions we have

[last minute]

.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

I don't understand what you are worried about. There is lots of private care in Canada. Dentistry is private, pharmaceuticals are private, physiotherapy. You can pay for private diagnostics.

Like you mentioned, there is a massive private system right across the border. Nobody is stopping you.

Go ahead, hop on a plane, if you can afford to have your hip replaced privately, the cost of a ticket and a hotel isn't going to stop you. If Jesse Poolparty can zip down to the US for hip surgery, so can you. What's the problem?

I suppose you could argue you want your taxes back so you can spend on your health as you see fit. Ahhh there's the rub. Would you really like to strike that bargain? Be careful what you wish for.

Why should we have to go to another country to pay to have procedures that the public system makes us wait months for? Why make it illegal to offer those procedures in Canada? It's not about equal opportunity, because certain people get treatment right here in Canada, without having to wait like the common people. We already have a two tier health care system for some people.
But when it comes right down to it, if our government stopped handing out millions to terrorists, and refugees, and Foundations like The Trudeau and Clinton Foundations, we could likely cut the wait lists for treatments considerably.

[shootsblanks]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

I assume you are just trying to play devils advocate. If not, you are either super rich or super naive. The average person would be put in the poorhouse pretty quickly in this country if they had to pay for any kind of serious illness out of pocket. It sounds like you believe only the wealthy should be entitled to a long life

Lots of people get sick in this country without the assistance of McDonalds , smoking and booze. Congrats on your healthy lifestyle , you should be commended. What if next week you are involved in a serious accident no fault of your own next week and you and your family spend the next year in medical care after numerous operations? Would you prefer to be paying that out of pocket or would you be interested in a safety net of some sort that takes care of you and your family regardless of whether you have the money or not. That is not a fantasy scenario,it happens to people all the time.

I'm about as Conservative as can be when it comes to politics but I'm smart enough to know that even with all of it's flaws ,our health system in Canada is probably the most necessary gov't interventions we have

If i decide to play devils advocate i will preface anything i say with a declaration stating such.
I am only super rich compared to people born in 3rd world countries.
I would not be called naive either, i understand all of those things just fine. I just do not believe that anybody is responsible for the costs incurred by anyone elses care, unless of course they are immediete family or (in the case of an insurrance company) paid to be responsible.
Just because i support something that could negativly impact me or someone i care about does not make me naive, i was raised to look after my own and stand by my principals even when it could land me in a world of hurt.

And paying for costs incurred on medical expenses, or paying for health insurrance, or even planning ahead (gasp) and intentionally seeking out a job that comes with a good health care package is nobodies buisness but their own.
The governments only job should be to make sure people in positions of power do not abuse it, and secure borders and trade with other countries, not provide commodities too people who claim they have a human right to bandaids and antibiotics.

[Husty]

I've had 2 surgery and thank god for healthcare, never saw a bill, only charged a little bit of physio once insurance ran up. Sure I had to wait about a year in each case but neither of my ailments were life threatening. They were affecting my quality of life. If I had to pay say 20k per surgery I would still have a lower quality of life as I could not afford both of them.

If theirs one thing our govt shouldn't change its health care and how anyone should be able to access it. Pretty easy to talk big game when you healthy and don't have to shell out cash, but I bet if the anti-healthcare person suddenly got cancer and had to get treatment they would change their tune once bills started showing up.

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by shootsblanks

If i decide to play devils advocate i will preface anything i say with a declaration stating such.
I am only super rich compared to people born in 3rd world countries.
I would not be called naive either, i understand all of those things just fine. I just do not believe that anybody is responsible for the costs incurred by anyone elses care, unless of course they are immediete family or (in the case of an insurrance company) paid to be responsible.
Just because i support something that could negativly impact me or someone i care about does not make me naive, i was raised to look after my own and stand by my principals even when it could land me in a world of hurt.

And paying for costs incurred on medical expenses, or paying for health insurrance, or even planning ahead (gasp) and intentionally seeking out a job that comes with a good health care package is nobodies buisness but their own.
The governments only job should be to make sure people in positions of power do not abuse it, and secure borders and trade with other countries, not provide commodities too people who claim they have a human right to bandaids and antibiotics.

hmmm you sound bitter. Hope it is contagious.

[subcultural heritage]

To the multiple users saying we pay taxes for healthcare and shouldn't have to pay again. Or that we would be better off not paying those taxes and having a choice of buying insurance or saving to pay out of pocket on an "as-needed" basis:

The USA uses more tax money per capita on healthcare than Canada. AND THEN people have to pay out of pocket for insurance or treatment. http://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-...sweden-canada/

So, if we go for a private healthcare instead of universal option, we are going to end up paying more for healthcare out of our taxes before we even purchase anything relates to healthcare.

To the other who say Trudeau is a crook and corrupt and Trump would be better: you are talking about a man who did a corrupt act to try and protect jobs (SNC-Lavalin) vs a man who does corrupt acts to make money (paying his own hotels for his stays, taking money from dictators and politicians while they visit via having them stay at his properties.)

Yeah, it would be great to not have a leader who falls into corruption, but if we are talking about choosing an idiot to lead us, I would still take the one with the nice, not combed over, hair.

[kevinhits]

Originally Posted by subcultural heritage

To the multiple users saying we pay taxes for healthcare and shouldn't have to pay again. Or that we would be better off not paying those taxes and having a choice of buying insurance or saving to pay out of pocket on an "as-needed" basis:

The USA uses more tax money per capita on healthcare than Canada. AND THEN people have to pay out of pocket for insurance or treatment. http://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-...sweden-canada/

So, if we go for a private healthcare instead of universal option, we are going to end up paying more for healthcare out of our taxes before we even purchase anything relates to healthcare.

To the other who say Trudeau is a crook and corrupt and Trump would be better: you are talking about a man who did a corrupt act to try and protect jobs (SNC-Lavalin) vs a man who does corrupt acts to make money (paying his own hotels for his stays, taking money from dictators and politicians while they visit via having them stay at his properties.)

Yeah, it would be great to not have a leader who falls into corruption, but if we are talking about choosing an idiot to lead us, I would still take the one with the nice, not combed over, hair.

Protect jobs with SNC-Lavalin? How about protecting our jobs here in Alberta?

[Unregistered user]

It's a troll.

[subcultural heritage]

SNC-Lavalin, as ****ty a company as they are, employ a lot of people in Canada. While I think that they should be brought to task for every corruption they have in their history, they are a large scale employer here.

And while I think Trudeau is an idiot and would love to see a change in Liberal Party leadership due to the scandal, if we are comparing having him or the Grand Cheeto from down south, I would rather take Trudeau.

Trump only looks out for himself and other corrupt,rich business people. He has no desire to do anything foe the good of the country or the people. He pays lip service to the idea of helping the working man, then tries to enact things that sound like they will help when really they wont. Hell, most of his talking points are about how much worse it would be under someone else.

[kevinhits]

Originally Posted by subcultural heritage

SNC-Lavalin, as ****ty a company as they are, employ a lot of people in Canada. While I think that they should be brought to task for every corruption they have in their history, they are a large scale employer here.

And while I think Trudeau is an idiot and would love to see a change in Liberal Party leadership due to the scandal, if we are comparing having him or the Grand Cheeto from down south, I would rather take Trudeau.

Trump only looks out for himself and other corrupt,rich business people. He has no desire to do anything foe the good of the country or the people. He pays lip service to the idea of helping the working man, then tries to enact things that sound like they will help when really they wont. Hell, most of his talking points are about how much worse it would be under someone else.

Actually, many people would be employed the same without using a corrupt company like SNC.....Honest companies bidding on federal contracts would still employ the same amount of workers without the CORRUPTION...especially from a Quebec based company....

As for choosing our chimp over Trudeau...You lost me there and will not comment as this thread will be locked soon enough.....

[subcultural heritage]

Fair point in locking the thread soon. I'll leave the orangeutan and nice hair out of this from here on.

I think you misunderstand me on SNC-Lavalin. I think the wrong decision was made. I think SNC-Lavalin is a very corrupt business that we should let fail. I just think the motivation behind it was likely an ok idea, in that you go easy on big employers, but still a wrong one. A nice idea with good motivations (keeping jobs) but ultimately, a wrong one.

[Bushrat]

Health care spending in Canada.
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/stud...in-canada-2017

The thing most don't understand is that we are not paying enough through taxes to support the level of health care we currently have in Canada. We are simply adding these constant budget overrun costs to the never ending burgeoning provincial and federal deficits. If our healthcare was private it would already be bankrupt. Being gov't run and supported we pay some of the bills and throw the rest of the invoices onto the 'worry about it later file' otherwise known as the deficit...

[kevinhits]

Originally Posted by kevinhits

Actually, many people would be employed the same without using a corrupt company like SNC.....Honest companies bidding on federal contracts would still employ the same amount of workers without the CORRUPTION...especially from a Quebec based company....

As for choosing our chimp over Trudeau...You lost me there and will not comment as this thread will be locked soon enough.....

LOL...I meant to say"choosing our chimp over Trump"

Too late to edit now

[sdb8440]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Reading comprehension on this site... Smh

Finland did not collapse

The current government chose to resign one month before an election rather than go into said election with unfinished business. Political maneuvering, nothing more.

The hate-on for healthcare is unreal. You guys think you’ll pay less if you have to support an entire insurance industry on top of medical costs? And said insurance is solely looking to make sure you pay them, but they never pay for you....

This topic highlights the danger of believing conservative dogma vs thinking for oneself.

Keep in mind that the OEDC states that Canada's single payer system (one of the few) deliver's some of the lowest outcomes at nearly the highest cost. As for Canada itself, the province with the biggest percentage of privately delivered heathcare has the shortest wait time (about half of Alberta), they spend less per person on that healthcare as well. So aybe it's time to try something different since the results we're getting eat 40% of our budget and soon to move much higher. And no I am not going to send you links, a smart person would know how to find that information easily.

[pittman]

Originally Posted by sdb8440

Keep in mind that the OEDC states that Canada's single payer system (one of the few) deliver's some of the lowest outcomes at nearly the highest cost. As for Canada itself, the province with the biggest percentage of privately delivered heathcare has the shortest wait time (about half of Alberta), they spend less per person on that healthcare as well. So aybe it's time to try something different since the results we're getting eat 40% of our budget and soon to move much higher. And no I am not going to send you links, a smart person would know how to find that information easily.

Absolutely incorrect. The multi-payer system in the US costs more per capita and has some of the lowest scores on health outcome measures. Why? Because it's only available to those who can afford it, and they spend considerably more on administrative costs. Read for yourself:

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/pd...haff.2013.1327

[jungleboy]

Had conversation with a friend of mine on this topic of pay your own way healthcare utopia that some on here advocate for. He had a client that went to on a holiday to the US. They purchased extra insurance to be safe .His wife goes into labor and ends up having the baby while there. The insurance reneged on paying over some technicality. (I know this is rare for an insurance company to try and get out of paying ).
Their bill came to over a million USD . These hospitals don't miss a thing , they charge for tissues ,drinking cups bedpans toilet paper, everything right down to the paper the bill comes on. ( he knew of two families in this scenario)
I wonder how many advocates for US style healthcare would sing the same tune if the shtf and they had to put their money or lack of money where their mouth is.