Arming Teachers?

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Your taxes just doubled....that would never be supported.

Cost for guard should not be much more than hiring one extra teacher, cost divided between hundreds of tax payers.

I am betting fund raising/donations could be collected for the cost of the metal detectors.

[HyperMOA]

I don't know why you guys think a teacher with a firearm is such a liability? Why do you all assume that a teacher is incapable of safely handling a firearm? I have a friend who is a teacher in Edmonton and shoots IPSC. I would bet he is better trained than some of the EPS. If he lived in the US and had a choice to carry he would. Not to go and seek out a shooter, but to make a last stand if that individual tried to force themselves into his classroom.

Arming the teachers doesn't mean that they will be a highly effective SWAT force. Those that choose to be armed could very likely deter the idiot from trying to kill everyone in their classroom until the police arrive. They wouldn't be sweeping the school, they'd be holed up protecting their classes.

[TBD]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

I don't know why you guys think a teacher with a firearm is such a liability? Why do you all assume that a teacher is incapable of safely handling a firearm? I have a friend who is a teacher in Edmonton and shoots IPSC. I would bet he is better trained than some of the EPS. If he lived in the US and had a choice to carry he would. Not to go and seek out a shooter, but to make a last stand if that individual tried to force themselves into his classroom.

Arming the teachers doesn't mean that they will be a highly effective SWAT force. Those that choose to be armed could very likely deter the idiot from trying to kill everyone in their classroom until the police arrive. They wouldn't be sweeping the school, they'd be holed up protecting their classes.

the way i understood how teachers could be given a chance under the presidents plan.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

I don't know why you guys think a teacher with a firearm is such a liability? Why do you all assume that a teacher is incapable of safely handling a firearm? I have a friend who is a teacher in Edmonton and shoots IPSC. I would bet he is better trained than some of the EPS. If he lived in the US and had a choice to carry he would. Not to go and seek out a shooter, but to make a last stand if that individual tried to force themselves into his classroom.

Arming the teachers doesn't mean that they will be a highly effective SWAT force. Those that choose to be armed could very likely deter the idiot from trying to kill everyone in their classroom until the police arrive. They wouldn't be sweeping the school, they'd be holed up protecting their classes.

I think the biggest skill is not necessarily safe gun handling but the ability to be shot at and still keep focused on the task at hand. My ex worked in the school board for 20 years or more and I was introduced to many teachers.

I visited with them at quite a few functions over the years and to be honest I don't know if I have ever seen a profession that has less knowledge/interest in guns, shooting, hunting and even fishing.

[Mikeham]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

I don't know why you guys think a teacher with a firearm is such a liability? Why do you all assume that a teacher is incapable of safely handling a firearm? I have a friend who is a teacher in Edmonton and shoots IPSC. I would bet he is better trained than some of the EPS. If he lived in the US and had a choice to carry he would. Not to go and seek out a shooter, but to make a last stand if that individual tried to force themselves into his classroom.

Arming the teachers doesn't mean that they will be a highly effective SWAT force. Those that choose to be armed could very likely deter the idiot from trying to kill everyone in their classroom until the police arrive. They wouldn't be sweeping the school, they'd be holed up protecting their classes.

I’m a teacher. I don’t trust most people with firearms, especially in high stress situations or active shooter situations. This isn’t a video game or Airsoft.

[The Spank]

We had a marksmanship club at high school with an indoor rifle range where we shot 22’s. I attended high school from ‘78-‘82. The school had a bunch of single shot rifles and many of us carried our own rifles to school and kept them in our lockers on range days. My neighbour was a teacher at another high school in town and until the day he retired in 1998 he ran a skeet shooting club at the school he taught at. When shooting was taught and encouraged as part of the cirriculum or extra cirricular activities we didn’t have these school shootings. But then we still don’t. These things are happening outside of our borders but thanks to modern communication its broadcast to us and people see it as “ours” as well. I say bring back firearms training and moral values teachings first and foremost and train and arm the teachers for school shootings as the last line of prevention.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Mikeham

Sounds like a gun-fetishist fantasy.
In Canada? Zero chance of this gaining any traction. Not even a good idea. The level of training required to make this armed teacher an asset and not a liability would be insane and not easy. The increased risk of accidental shooting or someone else getting the firearm is greater than the benefit it would provide.
Even in the Excited States of America, I can’t see many teachers wanting the additional weight of such a role.

Not at all a “gun fetish” thing...and my thoughts are with the current discussion in the US. I hope we never start feeling the need for guns in schools in Canada.
I was a principal both at the time of the Ecole PolyT shooting and Columbine and we had to think about responses. After Columbine, many Canadian schools did start establish “intercom codes”. I personally came to terms with the fact it was my responsibility to do everything I could to protect students ... and that included “to the death.” Probably not many occupations where one mulls that over every week, and I am sure other principals felt the same as myself.

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Cost for guard should not be much more than hiring one extra teacher, cost divided between hundreds of tax payers.

I am betting fund raising/donations could be collected for the cost of the metal detectors.

You're assuming there's extra money at schools.

IMHO, the problem is already the class sizes, but you're asking to use that teacher money for a guard. Go spend some time in a classroom, grade 1-6, and see what happens. So many kids aren't getting the "teacher time" they require because of the current class sizes. Where do you think "issues" (as in mental/psychological/etc) are found? Very few parents realize (or care to admit) their kids have issues. If those issues aren't discovered at an early age, what do you think happens to them? Well, the kids usually get bullied, or they fall into depression and it compounds to a breaking point, which is usually around high school.

Is this really an issue here is Canada? US has had 18 school shootings this year (2018), Canada has had what? Why do you think that is? (hint,It's our stringent gun control laws). I'm not saying it can't happen here, but it's not something that happens every week, like in US.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Cost for guard should not be much more than hiring one extra teacher, cost divided between hundreds of tax payers.

I am betting fund raising/donations could be collected for the cost of the metal detectors.

I wish I thought you were right. “In the business”, one soon comes to terms with the fact that there are a lot more taxpayers without kids in school than with...I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard “that’s unsustainable”.

[The Spank]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

You're assuming there's extra money at schools.

IMHO, the problem is already the class sizes, but you're asking to use that teacher money for a guard. Go spend some time in a classroom, grade 1-6, and see what happens. So many kids aren't getting the "teacher time" they require because of the current class sizes. Where do you think "issues" (as in mental/psychological/etc) are found? Very few parents realize (or care to admit) their kids have issues. If those issues aren't discovered at an early age, what do you think happens to them? Well, the kids usually get bullied, or they fall into depression and it compounds to a breaking point, which is usually around high school.

Is this really an issue here is Canada? US has had 18 school shootings this year (2018), Canada has had what? Why do you think that is? (hint,It's our stringent gun control laws). I'm not saying it can't happen here, but it's not something that happens every week, like in US.

Ummm not!!! It has zero to do with our gun control laws. In my day and my fathers day and his fathers day we all carried our guns to school and participated in shooting clubs and hunted our way to and from school in season. There was no shootings in our schools then either!!! Don’t buy into the gun control thing! Thats what they want you to believe and its total bs

[Fisherpeak]

Originally Posted by bobalong

I think the biggest skill is not necessarily safe gun handling but the ability to be shot at and still keep focused on the task at hand. My ex worked in the school board for 20 years or more and I was introduced to many teachers.

I visited with them at quite a few functions over the years and to be honest I don't know if I have ever seen a profession that has less knowledge/interest in guns, shooting, hunting and even fishing.

^^^^^ That right there.
I would rather have a retired military or LEO any time over the average teacher. They ain`t going to save anybody if they don`t know anything and have never been tested in a stress situation. I am 100% in favour of a armed PROFESSIONAL guarding the gates. Arming the snowflakes won`t work. When Justin Turdo was a drama teacher do you think he would save your kids?

[EZM]

Beside the obvious "this is people control issue" IMO - which is irrelevant to the thread I think I shudder to think that untrained and/or unwilling teachers will be the answer here. I know doing nothing isn't an option.

I never considered the "orange gun and vest" theory and it would offer some way for someone to react to the threat.

Having said all of that - U cant help but to think about the former Broward (Coward) county officer hiding behind a concrete wall while he listened to all the shots go off as this mad man killed all those kids. He was supposedly trained and armed to react to this type of threat.

I also won't get into the fact it has been said that Coral Springs Officers also arrived to see yet another 3-4 Coward county officers hiding behind their vehicles.

If we have people (officers) who are armed and trained to respond, and have a clear mandate to enter and engage who failed under the stress/fear/pressure of the situation what makes us think the teachers will fare any better.

I guess at least if they are forced to defend themselves - and are already in there - they will have to defend themselves. The question is how effective will they be.

I also have an idea - why not replace the school classroom doors with break entry proof/bullet resistant doors so that people sheltering in place can remain isolated and protected.

This could also be employed at strategic areas throughout the school.

The only issue with that is, of course, that you could potentially trap victims as well.

I dunno - every solution we come up with has some issues. You can't always solve the crazy or the criminal minded.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Mikeham

I’m a teacher. I don’t trust most people with firearms, especially in high stress situations or active shooter situations. This isn’t a video game or Airsoft.

Me too... well, I was. 32 years total, 30 of those as principal. And like you, I don’t think teachers carrying firearms around in school is acceptable. But, with proper training including simulation, I have no doubt some of us would rise to the level of our training under stress. At one time, I felt the same way about the hokey CPR training we used to do...but then when you see someone save a life because of it...well, maybe it’s not so crazy.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

You're assuming there's extra money at schools.

IMHO, the problem is already the class sizes, but you're asking to use that teacher money for a guard. Go spend some time in a classroom, grade 1-6, and see what happens. So many kids aren't getting the "teacher time" they require because of the current class sizes. Where do you think "issues" (as in mental/psychological/etc) are found? Very few parents realize (or care to admit) their kids have issues. If those issues aren't discovered at an early age, what do you think happens to them? Well, the kids usually get bullied, or they fall into depression and it compounds to a breaking point, which is usually around high school.

Is this really an issue here is Canada? US has had 18 school shootings this year (2018), Canada has had what? Why do you think that is? (hint,It's our stringent gun control laws). I'm not saying it can't happen here, but it's not something that happens every week, like in US.

School shootings do not seem to be a problem here, but I don't really believe it is the gun laws. My suggestion was more directed at the US. With the exception of very few CC permits,and that we can't hunt with handguns I think our gun laws are quite open and fair. We are able to purchase as many semi auto handguns and rifles as we like, that's pretty reasonable I think.

The US seems to find additional funds for many things, protecting their children in schools may soon have to become one. I know of all the things my taxes are used for I think a guard and metal detector for schools would be one of the best ways to spend it.

[riden]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Your taxes just doubled....that would never be supported.

I googled that there are 100 000 public schools in America. Give each one a guard earning $50k

That’s $5 billion annually. Wow.

[Fisherpeak]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Me too... well, I was. 32 years total, 30 of those as principal. And like you, I don’t think teachers carrying firearms around in school is acceptable. But, with proper training including simulation, I have no doubt some of us would rise to the level of our training under stress. At one time, I felt the same way about the hokey CPR training we used to do...but then when you see someone save a life because of it...well, maybe it’s not so crazy.

CPR training is not hokey. I saved 2 people because I knew what to do. One car wreck and one heart attack. Thing is...can you get your sh1t together fast and usefully? CPR or an armed response. Most people freeze in any emergency. Or run. You want trained Pro`s handling security, not some teacher who never hunted but took a course on gun safety. You need somebody who is willing to KILL another human to save lives. You won`t have time to rationalize or reason with him . You will need to do it the second you are sure he is the target and still in action. You can go to therapy after you killed him but you MUST stop him. Save a bunch of kids. And not get killed yourself trying to talk him into a "warm happy space"

[Sundog57]

Read "On Combat", Lt Col Dave Grossman
Then think again
Probably worth reading anyway, very informative
About 90% of the folks legally carrying firearms today are a greater danger to the people they are meant to protect than the people that they are protecting from.

Should be required reading for:
Judges, Crown Attorneys, CBC-oids, folks that want to arm anybody, folks who don't want to arm anybody

[Newview01]

If education was 100% privatized, I'll bet the schools that provided armed security for a 1-2% increase in tuition would be a lot more popular than those without.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by JDK71

Guard at each door and metal detector would be a big help

The cost would be enormous. That would be a HUGE waste of tax dollars.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by riden

I googled that there are 100 000 public schools in America. Give each one a guard earning $50k

That’s $5 billion annually. Wow.

It is not going to be cheap, but I like it best of all the options I have seen suggested. People are always saying that our children are our future, our family is the most important thing, our kids our most prized possessions.

Time to put the money where the mouth is. I see this as a part of the defense budget not the school budget. US total budget is almost 4 trillion.

[Norwest Alta]

Is the shooting all done in a matter of minutes? Seems to me it is. Having a locked up gun in the principles office and one in the janitors office will more than likely be to late imo. Armed guard as well can't and chances are won't be in position to thwart a attack on a classroom 100% of the time.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by Scott h

The cost would be enormous. That would be a HUGE waste of tax dollars.

What is an acceptable amount to spend on saving school children? What would be more effective banning an AR15 when there are at least a few hundred other firearms that could do basically the same, or the guard and metal detector.

Do you want something actually done, or just a token gesture (ban AR15) to appease the anti-gun advocates that won't really accomplish anything?

[bessiedog]

Oh please man!

Make this happen.

Would you guys help me get funding for this...?




To hell with concealment.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by riden

I googled that there are 100 000 public schools in America. Give each one a guard earning $50k

That’s $5 billion annually. Wow.

How much does the USA spend annually on the military and national guard? It would be a natural that every soldier does time in a school as part of their military service.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

Is the shooting all done in a matter of minutes? Seems to me it is. Having a locked up gun in the principles office and one in the janitors office will more than likely be to late imo. Armed guard as well can't and chances are won't be in position to thwart a attack on a classroom 100% of the time.

No plan can “thwart 100%”. Every one of these shootings is going to be different. No one can even imagine how the next one will play out, and we have pretty much accepted that it will.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by Scott h

The cost would be enormous. That would be a HUGE waste of tax dollars.

I bet the parents of those murdered students wouldn't agree with that statement. They seem to find money to protect armored cars full of money, but the kids....well easy come, easy go??

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

No plan can “thwart 100%”. Every one of these shootings is going to be different. No one can even imagine how the next one will play out, and we have pretty much accepted that it will.

Just saying that if let's say 10% of the teachers chose to be armed in there classroom would that not cut the mass shooting risk greatly. More so than a central located firearm.or armed guards.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

I bet the parents of those murdered students wouldn't agree with that statement. They seem to find money to protect armored cars full of money, but the kids....well easy come, easy go??

Well there was an armed guard being paid to do just that in Florida. How effective was that ??

[58thecat]

One word....nope.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

Just saying that if let's say 10% of the teachers chose to be armed in there classroom would that not cut the mass shooting risk greatly. More so than a central located firearm.or armed guards.

The percentage of teachers possessing the temperament, skill, and self control to initiate an appropriate response is probably pretty low. Certainly not higher than the public at large, but because they have chosen one of the “helping” professions, arguably lower? There are too many “but what if’s” in the prediction equation.