What is Killing our Shooting sports

[Icatchfish]

Opening a gun range would be on my list of things to do but i wont have the time or resources until mid 2015.

for the mean time why don't we set up some awareness events, like free range day for people interested. free trap shooting event. discounts for corporate events and team building events at skeet and trap clubs and regular gun ranges.

anything that reverse our image in our favor and reverse the stigma of owning guns.

[densa44]

I think there are more than 2 ranges near Calgary, the police have one too, that's where I used to get .223 brass. There are lots of personal ranges in Alberta, and the problem then becomes how do the city boys get access?

The process would be similar to how to get permission to hunt, I'm sure that you can figure it out.

Trying to force a development that involves guns on a community that doesn't want it, will make you old before your time.

Can you make a deal with the Natives, they can do what they want and IME have been easy to deal with?

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Icatchfish

Opening a gun range would be on my list of things to do but i wont have the time or resources until mid 2015.

for the mean time why don't we set up some awareness events, like free range day for people interested. free trap shooting event. discounts for corporate events and team building events at skeet and trap clubs and regular gun ranges.

anything that reverse our image in our favor and reverse the stigma of owning guns.

Lots of ranges have membership caps. Trying to get members to volunteer/sacrifice their own range time to put on public events is difficult. Whether range memberships are capped or not, Asking members to supply their own personal guns and ammunition to lend out to complete strangers is also a difficult proposal. Telling other members who pay memberships for use of a range and are not interested in volunteering time that they re going to have to forfit several weekends a year of shooting to accommodate public shooting events does not go over well. Then you add insurance problems, many ranges do not allow any guests because their insurance policies simply will not cover non members, many of these ranges will not risk their necks on the liability chopping block. Between lack of shooting facilities, licencing, range template approval and ranges trying to operate within those parameters to keep from being shut down it is rather onerous to satisfy these demands, having the unlicensed public want to be shooter come out to introductory free range days isn't as simple as it would seem. These are just a few stumbling blocks in the way and why there are few if any open to the public free ranges anymore. It's near impossible to create new legal ranges these days and keep regulators, neighbours, and members happy, add non member unlicensed public into the mix is pretty tough for clubs of which many who can't even get enough of their own members to volunteer to maintain and operate ranges for their own use let alone have them give up their own shooting time to accommodate the general public.

[purgatory.sv]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Lots of ranges have membership caps. Trying to get members to volunteer/sacrifice their own range time to put on public events is difficult. Whether range memberships are capped or not, Asking members to supply their own personal guns and ammunition to lend out to complete strangers is also a difficult proposal. Telling other members who pay memberships for use of a range and are not interested in volunteering time that they re going to have to forfit several weekends a year of shooting to accommodate public shooting events does not go over well. Then you add insurance problems, many ranges do not allow any guests because their insurance policies simply will not cover non members, many of these ranges will not risk their necks on the liability chopping block. Between lack of shooting facilities, licencing, range template approval and ranges trying to operate within those parameters to keep from being shut down it is rather onerous to satisfy these demands, having the unlicensed public want to be shooter come out to introductory free range days isn't as simple as it would seem. These are just a few stumbling blocks in the way and why there are few if any open to the public free ranges anymore. It's near impossible to create new legal ranges these days and keep regulators, neighbours, and members happy, add non member unlicensed public into the mix is pretty tough for clubs of which many who can't even get enough of their own members to volunteer to maintain and operate ranges for their own use let alone have them give up their own shooting time to accommodate the general public.

Can’t comment suns out and I see shadows .

[ward]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Lots of ranges have membership caps. Trying to get members to volunteer/sacrifice their own range time to put on public events is difficult. Whether range memberships are capped or not, Asking members to supply their own personal guns and ammunition to lend out to complete strangers is also a difficult proposal. Telling other members who pay memberships for use of a range and are not interested in volunteering time that they re going to have to forfit several weekends a year of shooting to accommodate public shooting events does not go over well. Then you add insurance problems, many ranges do not allow any guests because their insurance policies simply will not cover non members, many of these ranges will not risk their necks on the liability chopping block. Between lack of shooting facilities, licencing, range template approval and ranges trying to operate within those parameters to keep from being shut down it is rather onerous to satisfy these demands, having the unlicensed public want to be shooter come out to introductory free range days isn't as simple as it would seem. These are just a few stumbling blocks in the way and why there are few if any open to the public free ranges anymore. It's near impossible to create new legal ranges these days and keep regulators, neighbours, and members happy, add non member unlicensed public into the mix is pretty tough for clubs of which many who can't even get enough of their own members to volunteer to maintain and operate ranges for their own use let alone have them give up their own shooting time to accommodate the general public.

I think you have answered the original question perfectly. Although there are countless other reasons. Death by a thousand cuts.

[Icatchfish]

you are right bushrat.
what you are describing right in your post is the general norm these days. people want things done but no one is willing to volunteer or lend a hand and just complain complain and complain. give it a few years and we wont be able to own a slingshot.

the liability issue ? what liability ? have you ever read a membership contract? most of them absolve the range from all risks and put all the risks on the user just like in any other sport. from hockey to sky diving.

my suggestions are merely pulling at straws. If anyone got better ideas please share them and im in.

im already considering selling my rifles and i know its a matter of time before i give in and get rid of them. after all they are just sittin here collecting dust.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Icatchfish

Opening a gun range would be on my list of things to do but i wont have the time or resources until mid 2015.

for the mean time why don't we set up some awareness events, like free range day for people interested. free trap shooting event. discounts for corporate events and team building events at skeet and trap clubs and regular gun ranges.

anything that reverse our image in our favor and reverse the stigma of owning guns.

All of these things are being done at the clay clubs where I shoot. One of the clubs where I shoot pays all fees for junior shooters to shoot a trap league that goes once a week for June, July and part of August. After that all shooters may shoot 50 sporting target for $10.00. This happens once a week for about 4 weeks. During this event shooters are invited to bring guests who may shoot the event for the $10.00 club rate one time. If they like it they are invited to buy a membership which by today's cost is very light$$$.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Icatchfish

Opening a gun range would be on my list of things to do but i wont have the time or resources until mid 2015.

for the mean time why don't we set up some awareness events, like free range day for people interested. free trap shooting event. discounts for corporate events and team building events at skeet and trap clubs and regular gun ranges.

anything that reverse our image in our favor and reverse the stigma of owning guns.

Our club is not capped, so anyone that wants to can join. Junior trap&skeet shooters are provided with two free rounds, and two boxes of ammunition, to use during those rounds. The juniors can receive these benefits at every scheduled shooting day. We encourage guests to come out with a member, but we no longer allow free range days, as so many people showed up, it was too difficult to manage safely, and it wasn't enjoyable for anyone.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Icatchfish

if you got a membership to spare then pm me and i'll buy it

I should have sent you a pm earlier but I have little to offer you. Since you do not wish to travel you are stuck with Calgary with the exception of one range that is near Calgary and it is strictly clay targets and archery.

The ranges in Calgary are really more business than membership range. The public range in K country is a **** hole proving that what shooters get for free will be neglected.

In general there is a lot of want out there and few who are willing to do the heavy lifting. Some think that they should be entitled to have a place to shoot. It does not work that way. A place to shoot is a privilege and has to be paid for with work. Many only want to arrive, shoot and go home.

The Calgary and District Target shooters will be moving to Milo and may be open this spring. They will loose a lot of members that are not willing to travel. They will probably be taking new members, but I am willing to bet that they will attract more of those that just want to shoot and few that want top help out.

[Quinn]

Maybe we need to compile a group of people willing to put in the time and effort into making something happen.

There must be other clubs willing to provide us with a guideline to making it happen.

I don't have much spare cash laying around but I do have time and not one to shy away from work. Currently I have something setup in the bush where I go to shoot but I would love to have something to share with other like minded shooters. Sadly, what I do have will not be shared. I learned the hard way.

So could somebody provide us with the details and contacts required to work towards getting the ball rolling? Being that I doubt there is any available land (donated?) it will have to be converter crown land like homestead.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Quinn

Maybe we need to compile a group of people willing to put in the time and effort into making something happen.

There must be other clubs willing to provide us with a guideline to making it happen.

I don't have much spare cash laying around but I do have time and not one to shy away from work. Currently I have something setup in the bush where I go to shoot but I would love to have something to share with other like minded shooters. Sadly, what I do have will not be shared. I learned the hard way.

So could somebody provide us with the details and contacts required to work towards getting the ball rolling? Being that I doubt there is any available land (donated?) it will have to be converter crown land like homestead.

Here's a snap shot of what needs to happen.

Find the land, involving the provincial entity responsible for its disposition is a must. Once this entity is on board and receptive to your request, you will then have to go to the local municipality and see if they have any concerns, and of course they will query the neighbours, and provide information if they will issue a development permit for the endeavour, complete with conditions.
Then there will be environmental impact assessments, which will be done on your dime, and an abatement and remediation plan, which will require input and final approval from a recognized professional, who will be looking for money for their time. A noise study will need to be done, of course on your dime.
Then if you get the thousand blessings required, you would have either become non profit or a registered business.
Then comes the CFO's rule book.
Then you have the go ahead to put a spade in the ground.

By all means is this not a concise list, nor is it intended to be, some steps may be in the wrong order, and some items are sure to be missing.

It is intended as a stark realization as to why new ranges are not popping up, and why ranges are seldom expanding.

The task is daunting, expensive, and the rate of return on the preliminary steps is almost non existent.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Here's a snap shot of what needs to happen.

Find the land, involving the provincial entity responsible for its disposition is a must. Once this entity is on board and receptive to your request, you will then have to go to the local municipality and see if they have any concerns, and of course they will query the neighbours, and provide information if they will issue a development permit for the endeavour, complete with conditions.
Then there will be environmental impact assessments, which will be done on your dime, and an abatement and remediation plan, which will require input and final approval from a recognized professional, who will be looking for money for their time. A noise study will need to be done, of course on your dime.
Then if you get the thousand blessings required, you would have either become non profit or a registered business.
Then comes the CFO's rule book.
Then you have the go ahead to put a spade in the ground.

By all means is this not a concise list, nor is it intended to be, some steps may be in the wrong order, and some items are sure to be missing.

It is intended as a stark realization as to why new ranges are not popping up, and why ranges are seldom expanding.

The task is daunting, expensive, and the rate of return on the preliminary steps is almost non existent.

That is a pretty negative view Sir Dick. It can be done, its just a slow process. Someone started ranges at one point in time.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

That is a pretty negative view Sir Dick. It can be done, its just a slow process. Someone started ranges at one point in time.

Call it negative if you choose, but it is realistic. When most of our ranges were developed, there were usually few homes in the vicinity, the environmental concerns weren't an issue, and the public perception of firearms and shooting, was much more positive.

[North of 53]

I live in Northern Manitoba and have been a member of the local range for years. I also shoot f class in Saskatchewan and am a member of the Saskatchewan Provincial Rile Association. One thing I have found that turns off new people when the come out to a range is the assumption that because they own guns and are at a gun range their political views must be the same as all others at the range. I have brought friends and family out to a range and we all had a great time shooting and they really enjoyed the shooting part of the outing. When I ask them if they wanted to come out again they told me they would rather not. The reason is almost always the same, they tell me they just did not feel welcome there because they did not share all of the very right of center political views so freely and openly expressed by others at the range. I asked them if they felt others should not feel free to express there views? They said no it was just that they would like the same courtesy , it was that there was a very hostile "if your not for us your against us" kind of mentality at the range. They just wanted shoot and would be happy to pay good money to help out the range but they were not going stay where they were not wanted.
I myself don't let this bother me so much when I go out to shoot. I just kind of take it as a bit of a joke when other range members think they know anything at all about my personal political beliefs just because I enjoy shooting and own a fair number of firearms.
You may not agree with all of their political beliefs but believe it or not there are a few and may I say even more than a few fairly politically left wing shooters out there. Just as there are some very politically right of center people out there that would happily see your guns taken from you. Shooters need to make all shooters feel welcome not just the ones they think vote the same way they do.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Icatchfish

the liability issue ? what liability ? have you ever read a membership contract? most of them absolve the range from all risks and put all the risks on the user just like in any other sport. from hockey to sky diving.

They won't let you operate a legal CFO sanctioned range unless members/range are insured.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

. Someone started ranges at one point in time.

Most ranges started in the day when groups could approach govt, ask for land for one and they would get it and it would cost them nothing but a small annual lease fee.

[Bergerboy]

Elk and Bush, you guys do have valid points. It is more difficult now but still possible. If there is enough public interest and that interest becomes recognized, then things will happen.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

That is a pretty negative view Sir Dick. It can be done, its just a slow process. Someone started ranges at one point in time.

How is this negative?
It's the god honest truth to what goes on or has to go on.

Just because it is contrary to your perception, doesn't make it negative.

The last 10 to 15 years have seen the rules to the game change big time. How many new ranges have begun operation in that time frame? Vs. how many have been shut down?

[260 Rem]

I think the path towards new range development would be best served throuh some kind of "consortium" involving existing ranges. These are the people with experience. New range development within an hour drive of any major city is likely not in the cards.
Has any club on the "fringe" of development ever considered buying out the neighbors...?

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

That is a pretty negative view Sir Dick. It can be done, its just a slow process. Someone started ranges at one point in time.

They started them all right. Before Bill C-68)

And the Conservative party is having their big meeting this last week.

The party must be back to the "Progressive Conservative" days where sporting shooter's votes do not count.

Maybe its time to grab Preston off the saddle, dress him up, and show the folks what Conservatism means.

[wwbirds]

rules have gotten much more stringent since then. We already owned the land the club was proposing the range be built on in a relatively remote area of northern Ontario (Sudbury-Whitefish area)
took us almost 2 years of hearings before the first dirt was turned. We were lucky as had several members in good standing that had heavy equipment businesses to do the dirt work. Still probably cost $100,000.
toughest part was public hearings and allowing all concerned citizens (even if they lived 5 miles away) to express their concerns until we proved to the municipality that noise and bullets would not impact them.

Our greatest enemy to the process, the media, trying to polarize people against the range the noise, teaching children to handle firearms (god forbid).
They basically used anything possible to make the project negative to sell papers. Not sure how many councils I appeared in front of over those 18-20 months but it seemed like every couple weeks as President of the club and the primary firearms instructor.
Hearings were not fun with many misinformed people outraged at the prospect of a range anywhere near them.

Cant say I would want to be involved again in this day and age.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by greylynx

They started them all right. Before Bill C-68)

And the Conservative party is having their big meeting this last week.

The party must be back to the "Progressive Conservative" days where sporting shooter's votes do not count.

Maybe its time to grab Preston off the saddle, dress him up, and show the folks what Conservatism means.

C68 is only one fly in the ointment.
Enviro rules have changed even worse!

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Dick284

How is this negative?
It's the god honest truth to what goes on or has to go on.

Just because it is contrary to your perception, doesn't make it negative.

The last 10 to 15 years have seen the rules to the game change big time. How many new ranges have begun operation in that time frame? Vs. how many have been shut down?

the jumping thru' the hoops was bad enough when we started the DV range years ago, I could not imagine going thru' it these days..

[Icatchfish]

starting a new range these days is no easy task for sure and the financial return may not be realized for a long time.

so why can't we create a group in collaboration with other gun ranges or the NFA and do it. I would be willing to provide time hard labor and some dollars if we all share the costs and labor everything is doable.

as cliche as this may sound we need to unite and do something. we shouldn't be tearing at each other. its enough that the media and everyone else wanna tears us apart and take away our rights.

[dgitz]

What's happening to our shooting sports and lifestyles can be related to this,

The Hudson's Bay Company used to sell guns and ammo and other necessities, now they sell milk frothers.

Peoples values are constantly changing and we (the shooting/outdoors crowd) are becoming more and more scarce.

We need to promote our sport to our friends and people we know and as a group be welcoming to anyone, even if they're skeptical at first.

The first step is to get them in the door, the second is to get them to come back.

[Bushrat]

On the other hand lets not forget that getting people into the shooting sports isn't the problem. It can't be all that hard to get into the shooting sports as some seem to claim. In the last decade club memberships have gone up exponentially along with gun sales, ammo and reloading component sales, so I think more people actively shooting than ever before.

[Quinn]

Originally Posted by dgitz

What's happening to our shooting sports and lifestyles can be related to this,

The Hudson's Bay Company used to sell guns and ammo and other necessities, now they sell milk frothers.

Peoples values are constantly changing and we (the shooting/outdoors crowd) are becoming more and more scarce.

We need to promote our sport to our friends and people we know and as a group be welcoming to anyone, even if they're skeptical at first.

The first step is to get them in the door, the second is to get them to come back.

I agree with this and the points above that political views at the range should be kept within reason. It's to our benefit that all sides see our sport as good and acceptable, enthusiast or not.

Going back to the calgary area shooting problem, we have a bit of a unique situation where the government has plenty of land to the west with little to no houses around. Also beneficial is natural backstops.

Is expanding homestead for yet another range a possibility? Would this include the current groups or just the government?

[Speckle55]

You would have too start a Alberta club association and then jump through the hoops .. Grande Cache was down for awhile and Edson as well as Hinton had to do some range improvements .. so can it be done yes .. talk to you friends and put a ad in newspaper and radio then have a organizational meeting

we did that out here with the Yellowhead Arrow Launchers in 1996 (4 guys) ... in 2014 they are worth over 500000.00 in assets .. and are teaching 90 kids archery this year

look for land in spots that have a natural back stops and few neighbors

to the nay people .. There is No Failure except ceasing to try

ask your MLA's and MP office later for help get grants

in Calgary there are lots of corporate help if you ask the right people

Food for Thought

David

Originally Posted by Quinn

I agree with this and the points above that political views at the range should be kept within reason. It's to our benefit that all sides see our sport as good and acceptable, enthusiast or not.

Going back to the calgary area shooting problem, we have a bit of a unique situation where the government has plenty of land to the west with little to no houses around. Also beneficial is natural backstops.

Is expanding homestead for yet another range a possibility? Would this include the current groups or just the government?