Why did the .308 score so low in the poll?

[Selkirk]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

" . . . the case dimensions of the .300 Savage are almost IDENTICAL to the 30-06 . . . "

Some of the .300 Savage case dimentions are 'similar' to the .30-06., but I believe the .300 Savage case length dimension is quite a bit shoter ... by ~ 16mm (~ 25% shorter).

From what I understand, of the three cartridges (.30-06 / .308 / .300), the .300 Savage is actually the shortest of the three, but most similar to the .308 ...

.30-06 Spring. case length: ~ 63mm
.308 Win. case lenth: ~ 51mm
.300 Sav. case length: ~ 47mm

We're really not joshin' you. It's fairly well documented that the .308 was derived from the much shorter .300 Sav. They didn't want to copy the .30-06 ... they already had one o' those

Here's one of many examples that mentions the .300 Sav. as parent of the .308; http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/f/Sierra308Win.pdf

Anywayz, this isn't what this thread is about ... maybe I should get back on topic

[fluxcore]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

The .308 is just a shortened 30-06, therefore it has no real purpose.
If I want my 30-06 to shoot slower I just use less powder - what do I need a 308 for.

The .308 is for sissys and little girls.

your homework has made you dumb, If there is no purpose why are 308 winning so many long range competitions? why are police and swat snipers still using this calible today? I think your bias opinion is a little out to lunch

[Cal]

Befor anyone jumps in to correct me I meant that 270 killing power is close to the 308. I am aware that the 30-06 has more killing power, on paper anyways.

[fluxcore]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

I've done 39 years of "homework". Started shooting when I was nine. You do the math.

ya ok

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by Mintaka

It's all propaganda TF.
"Thirty ought six" has a better ring to it than "three O eight"
Look at the .243! It's Remington counterpart the .244 never gained in popularity until they renamed it the 6 millimetre magnum.
Having said that I don't know why the "7X57 Mauser" never took off in popularity, I know I would like to own a "7X57" ...that sounds cool!
For some reason too much effort is spent on caliber and not on bullet construction, rifle fit, and shooting abilities, although it does make for some interesting conversation.

I stand to be corrected here but I highly doubt that the 6mm was ever marketed as a magnum. In those days, if it didn't have a belt, it just wasn't a magnum!

European calibers such as the 7x57 have never been as popular in North America as the home grown calibers.

[222rem]

In my opinion the reason .308 it is not so popular because of power of advertising and big hoopla of big magnums.

The people (Military) that shoot more rounds per day then all hunters put together in whole of the hunting season have chosen .308, not big ultra magnums, short magnums or any other long action guns, matter of fact they got rid of 30-06 back in 1954 or there about .

In my humbled opinion it is very under rated cartridge.

[Buckhead]

Originally Posted by fluxcore

your homework has made you dumb, If there is no purpose why are 308 winning so many long range competitions? why are police and swat snipers still using this calible today? I think your bias opinion is a little out to lunch

It's not called being dumb. It's called having a sense of humour.
There really is nothing wrong with the .308 if that's what you like.
I've owned one before and taken game with it.

A lot of people like it because it has a bit less recoil and is easier to shoot than a 30-06.

[Buckhead]

Originally Posted by TriggerFinger

Some of the .300 Savage case dimentions are 'similar' to the .30-06., but I believe the .300 Savage case length dimension is quite a bit shoter ... by ~ 16mm (~ 25% shorter).

From what I understand, of the three cartridges (.30-06 / .308 / .300), the .300 Savage is actually the shortest of the three, but most similar to the .308 ...

.30-06 Spring. case length: ~ 63mm
.308 Win. case lenth: ~ 51mm
.300 Sav. case length: ~ 47mm

We're really not joshin' you. It's fairly well documented that the .308 was derived from the much shorter .300 Sav. They didn't want to copy the .30-06 ... they already had one o' those

Here's one of many examples that mentions the .300 Sav. as parent of the .308; http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/f/Sierra308Win.pdf

Anywayz, this isn't what this thread is about ... maybe I should get back on topic

Of course the cases are different lengths. That goes without saying.

It is also well documented that the .308 (7.62 Nato) was designed as a replacement for the 30-06 for the US military.

1. Less recoil so their sissy troops could shoot more accurately.

2. Rifles and ammo supplies would weigh less so more rounds of ammo could be carried per soldier.

These same issues are the main reason the US troops now carry the .223 (5.56 Nato)

I would have no problem when I am handloading making .308 cases by shortening a 30-06 case.
Stretching and reforming a .300 Savage case to make it into a .308 would entail substantially more work.

[Solothurn]

I think alot of what guys tend to favor caliberwise, is based on the hype and exagerated claims written in the various publications.
Everyone KNOWS that Jack O'Conner was telling them straight about how the 270 was the best because.......
Just as so many guys jumped on the 300RUM when the guns and ammo rag had big write ups about how superior that caliber was. The fact that the writers were PAID by Remington to write extremely positive reviews that later were known to be not just grossly exagerated, but out in out lies.

This coupled with the fact that every persons Dad who was a hunter was coached by Dad or the other members of the family hunting party that the caliber that "Dad" was using was the best. I know this was the case in my family, Winchester M70 300H&H for 3 generations, all the old guys KNEW that was the best rifle/caliber. Good God did I get ragged when I broke the tradition by buying a 7Rem Mag, and made by Remington, as it was what I could afford, pre 64 M70s being a fair bit more $$ back then.

Locale has alot to do with choices too, 303 Brit for example was not common in the US, but 06 and 8mm were. Up here 303 Brit was everywhere and everyone had 1.

The American mindset and marketing also has filtered up here, 50 years of brainwashing the American public has nearly proven nothing can be killed unless some UBBER magnum is used. Roy Weatherby had alot to do with that.

Many hunters believe bigger is better when it comes to hunting so the little 308 is often overlooked often because few bother to read or truly understand what the ballistics charts mean.
The varied terrain for hunting in Alberta has some unique issues as well, the demands of long range hunting in the open plain are different than the close bush in the mountains.

The correct caliber for any hunting is the 1 that suits your use and that you can use with efficiency.
I never believed Jack, I owned a 270 for a short time and was unimpressed so sold it.
I own a 308 simply because in the TAC rifle games I like to compete in it is 1 of the few calibers allowed. If it was my only rifle I would certainly hunt with it and with great confidence, it would just mean not being able to shoot game quite as far away as I do now.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Alberta Tactical Rifle

I think alot of what guys tend to favor caliberwise, is based on the hype and exagerated claims written in the various publications.
Everyone KNOWS that Jack O'Conner was telling them straight about how the 270 was the best because.......



I never believed Jack, I owned a 270 for a short time and was unimpressed so sold it.

Actually Rick, Mr. O'Conner , although he liked the .270, thought that the 30'06 was a better all around big game cartridge.
I never did get the .270 thing either, owned one for a bit but sold it to Rugersingle without even shooting it.
I love the 308 myself, but don't hunt with one these days, and just aquired another '06!! it was in my favorite action however ( Browning falling block) so I can justify it that way!
Cat

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

Of course the cases are different lengths. That goes without saying.

It is also well documented that the .308 (7.62 Nato) was designed as a replacement for the 30-06 for the US military.

1. Less recoil so their sissy troops could shoot more accurately.

2. Rifles and ammo supplies would weigh less so more rounds of ammo could be carried per soldier.

These same issues are the main reason the US troops now carry the .223 (5.56 Nato)

The "sissy troops could shoot more accurately" ?? Not a chance.
Since the "spray and pray" mentality by using automatic rifles has taken over the military mind, the number of shots needed per kill has escalated significantly.
How about because shorter cycling auto loaders are less likely to jam than longer cycling actions?
How about shorter cartridges work better inside the long mags of todays assualt rifles?
How about shorter ammo can cycle faster giving a sissy troop faster cyclic rate of fire?
How about newer and improved gun powders became available allowing the same basic performance with a smaller casing?
As for the convertion from 308 to 223, the way war is fought now has changed tremendously, we no longer see 1 side in trenches lobbing rounds at the other in a similar trench. 223 is no more accurate than 308, just handier to use in CQB due to less recoil and less chance of shooting through your opponent and hitting a friendly.

[Buckhead]

Originally Posted by Alberta Tactical Rifle

The "sissy troops could shoot more accurately" ?? Not a chance.
Since the "spray and pray" mentality by using automatic rifles has taken over the military mind, the number of shots needed per kill has escalated significantly.
How about because shorter cycling auto loaders are less likely to jam than longer cycling actions?
How about shorter cartridges work better inside the long mags of todays assualt rifles?
How about shorter ammo can cycle faster giving a sissy troop faster cyclic rate of fire?
How about newer and improved gun powders became available allowing the same basic performance with a smaller casing?
As for the convertion from 308 to 223, the way war is fought now has changed tremendously, we no longer see 1 side in trenches lobbing rounds at the other in a similar trench. 223 is no more accurate than 308, just handier to use in CQB due to less recoil and less chance of shooting through your opponent and hitting a friendly.

Less recoil = better accuracy for most shooters. I said the same thing, but it only took me 1 sentence.

[Cappy]

The difference in recoil between the 30/06 and the .308 firing typical 147gr ball ammo out of a 10lb battle rifle is pretty minimal. Cost difference in manufacturing millions of rounds between the two is very substantial. This reason and the reasns stated by ATR are the primary reasons the switch was made. Could the minor difference in recoil help accuracy? I suppose, but in the gas operated autos the militaries were using it wouldn't be a major deciding factor in switching.

But back to the original question......its just boring

[fluxcore]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

Less recoil = better accuracy for most shooters. I said the same thing, but it only took me 1 sentence.

Take it easy I think Alberta tactical came up with a few more pros than that. I shouldent have said you were dumb sorry about that.

[Selkirk]

Herez one for you 'Ballistics Experts' out there

Ballistics data and charts are usually based on results from ammunition shot out of 26" heavy test barrels, under ideal condtions.

My basic question is;

With all other things being equal, what happens to the ballistics of the .308 and .30-06, when you fire them out of standard 22" hunting barrels?

To provide some background;

It's my understanding that as 'soon' as you start shortening a .30-06 test barrel, the ballistics start to fall off. On the other hand, the ballistics of the more efficient .308 cartridge don't start to fall off significantly until the barrel is less than 22" long.

Carrying this a bit further ... one then begins to suspect that in standard 22" hunting barrels (all other things being equal), the ballistics of the .308 may be equal to, or sligihtly better than the .30-06 .

'Ballistics Experts' ... what say you?

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by TriggerFinger

Herez one for you 'Ballistics Experts' out there

Ballistics data and charts are usually based on results from ammunition shot out of 26" heavy test barrels, under ideal condtions.

My basic question is;

With all other things being equal, what happens to the ballistics of the .308 and .30-06, when you fire them out of standard 22" hunting barrels?

To provide some background;

It's my understanding that as 'soon' as you start shortening a .30-06 test barrel, the ballistics start to fall off. On the other hand, the ballistics of the more efficient .308 cartridge don't start to fall off significantly until the barrel is less than 22" long.

Carrying this a bit further ... one then begins to suspect that in standard 22" hunting barrels (all other things being equal), the ballistics of the .308 may be equal to, or sligihtly better than the .30-06 .

'Ballistics Experts' ... what say you?

The printed charts in reloading manuals and on ammo boxes are very generic.

With factory ammo you do not have any way to alter the end results, so by shortening the barrel in either caliber you "could" see a velocity loss.
Reloading with the more modern powders can be used to alter this.

I have spent a fair bit of time screwing around with my 308 Tac rifle and have come up with some interesting results.
The rifle I am using has a 21.5" barrel, but when shooting 175 gr bullets is producing faster than normal velocities as in 2875 fps, which eclipses many 180 gr 30-06 loads even with a longer barrel on the 06.
I have an old Sako in 06 that I bought because the barrel got bulged, it now has a 20" barrel on it as I cut 4" off to get rid of the bulge. If I use IMR4350 with the 180 gr bullet I get only 2650 fps, by using N550 however I get 2890 fps with the same 180 gr bullet.
I don't know if that answers your question, but maybe does illustrate how 1 can skew the results with different powders.
Just another good reason to reload your own ammo.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by TriggerFinger

Herez one for you 'Ballistics Experts' out there

Ballistics data and charts are usually based on results from ammunition shot out of 26" heavy test barrels, under ideal condtions.

My basic question is;

With all other things being equal, what happens to the ballistics of the .308 and .30-06, when you fire them out of standard 22" hunting barrels?

To provide some background;

It's my understanding that as 'soon' as you start shortening a .30-06 test barrel, the ballistics start to fall off. On the other hand, the ballistics of the more efficient .308 cartridge don't start to fall off significantly until the barrel is less than 22" long.

Carrying this a bit further ... one then begins to suspect that in standard 22" hunting barrels (all other things being equal), the ballistics of the .308 may be equal to, or sligihtly better than the .30-06 .

'Ballistics Experts' ... what say you?

Throught the range, the '06 is about 50 -100 feet faster than the 308 , generally speaking.
the point is moot however, because i really don't think it has anything to do with the popularity of either cartridge, In some circles, such as short range BR, Palma match, TR, or tactical matches, the 308 is king over the '06.
Once you start loading stuff like 180 - 200 grain hunting bullets however, in like rifles the '06 stands better.
My rifles most often have longer barrels than 22", most between 26-30"
Cat

Originally Posted by Buckhead

I've done 39 years of "homework". Started shooting when I was nine. You do the math.

Awesome, 39 years of homework is enough to impress anyone

[222rem]

We can spin our wheels about caliber, bullet weight ,make of the rifle, till cows come home. But on the end all are capable of doing the job.We all like different things and no one is going to change what we believe in.
Hey guys don't take thinks to/or personally .

[sullijr]

Im not two concerened with stopping power when I can keep a 308 inside a softball at 600yrds


See that Dick and Cat, Rodeo Buckles are in jeopardy again.I wonder can he do it off his elbows or or the tailgate of his truck.

[Buckhead]

I looked in the Hunting Regs. I could not find any season for softballs. Is that a new LEH category?

Originally Posted by Alberta Tactical Rifle

The "sissy troops could shoot more accurately" ?? Not a chance.
Since the "spray and pray" mentality by using automatic rifles has taken over the military mind, the number of shots needed per kill has escalated significantly.
How about because shorter cycling auto loaders are less likely to jam than longer cycling actions?
How about shorter cartridges work better inside the long mags of todays assualt rifles?
How about shorter ammo can cycle faster giving a sissy troop faster cyclic rate of fire?
How about newer and improved gun powders became available allowing the same basic performance with a smaller casing?
As for the convertion from 308 to 223, the way war is fought now has changed tremendously, we no longer see 1 side in trenches lobbing rounds at the other in a similar trench. 223 is no more accurate than 308, just handier to use in CQB due to less recoil and less chance of shooting through your opponent and hitting a friendly.

Great post ATR. .223 is a friendlier urban combat round while the .308 was a far better round in the jungle.

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by 2430M

Great post ATR. .223 is a friendlier urban combat round while the .308 was a far better round in the jungle.

I CERTAINLY preferred the 308 for jungle work, I hate getting close enough to get splashback on me I found up close and personal too hazardous as well.

[Selkirk]

Originally Posted by Alberta Tactical Rifle

"I think alot of what guys tend to favor caliberwise, is based on the hype and exagerated claims written in the various publications . . . so many guys jumped on the 300RUM when the guns and ammo rag had big write ups about how superior that caliber was. The fact that the writers were PAID by Remington . . . The American mindset and marketing also has filtered up here, 50 years of brainwashing the American public has nearly proven nothing can be killed unless some UBBER magnum is used . . . Many hunters believe bigger is better when it comes to hunting so the little 308 is often overlooked often because few bother to read or truly understand what the ballistics charts mean . . . "
.

Yes, I know what you're talking about here. 'MAGNUMITIS' is fairly well entrenched now in North America (on both sides of the border), especially in our western half. The 'Hummer' mentality is alive and well!

Don't get me wrong ... there are some advantages to hunting with the magnums in this part of the country (I've used them myself). The down side is, most hunters do not have the shooting skills to match the advantages. For most hunters, the use of magnums is 10-20% "real world advantage", and 80%+ "marketing hype".

Originally Posted by EagleEye54

" . . . I think you'll see a lot more use (.308) in the eastern USA . . . I'd bet that if you asked this question in a place like Alabama, you'd likely get a whole different vote pattern."
.

You wouldn't have to go all the way to Alabama to find strong support for the .308 Win. The .308 has a very strong following in our own country, with our hunting brothers east of the Lake Head (Ont.,Que.,N.B....). Most of their hunting conditions and topography make for ideal '.308 Territory'. They love the short-action feature of the .308, the accuracy, and that it works so well in shorter barreled rifles.

The .308 fans I know (both sides of the country) couldn't give a "rats ass" about the big old clunky .30-06 having ever so slightly better ballistics. And most of them will tell you that, right up front.

[Cooeylover]

Originally Posted by Alberta Tactical Rifle

The "sissy troops could shoot more accurately" ??

where did you pick this up from cause this is one of the most disrespectful things i have ever heard anyone say about any troops.
I bet whoever you got this from aint saying this while walking through a veterns cemetary.
VERY IGNORANT THING TO SAY!!!
Bring it on!!!!!

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by Cooeylover

where did you pick this up from cause this is one of the most disrespectful things i have ever heard anyone say about any troops.
I bet whoever you got this from aint saying this while walking through a veterns cemetary.
VERY IGNORANT THING TO SAY!!!
Bring it on!!!!!

Cooeylover
I agree it is very disrespectful, BEING A VET myself took great offense to it myself.

Take a look at post #38 for the originator of my quote.


Originally Posted by Buckhead


It is also well documented that the .308 (7.62 Nato) was designed as a replacement for the 30-06 for the US military.

1. Less recoil so their sissy troops could shoot more accurately.

2. Rifles and ammo supplies would weigh less so more rounds of ammo could be carried per soldier.

These same issues are the main reason the US troops now carry the .223 (5.56 Nato)

[Cooeylover]

Ok i see it now, ATR.
Gutless statement by far!!

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

If I want my 30-06 to shoot slower I just use less powder - what do I need a 308 for.

Yep you bet, so can I load down my 300 WM to 30/06 or 308 velocities. I shoot a lot of rounds a year and this year i've redicovered the joys of the .308 Win. All the belted mags have been safe queens this year. The little 308 Win and its kissing cousin the 30 T/C have killed a pile of animals this fall with wonderful aplomb!

[Okotokian]

I find all this fascinating. Lots of guys with deep deep knowledge and an affinity for one gun or the other, with solid technical reasons.... But I'm a bit confused still. So in the discussion of the .270 vs the .308 vs the 30-06, please tell me which Alberta animal your choice will kill that the other choices won't?

[Matt L.]

The answer to your question Okoyokian is none. Each of those three calibres will kill any Albertan game animal. What it boils down to is personal preference. Get out and shoot as many calibres as possible and choose the one you like the feel of the best.