303 British question

[leeaspell]

Well i guess its time to try my hand at reloading, and the Lee kit is oly $130-150 so not a huge investment.

[Lonnie]

good luck on the reloading.

[Dick284]

Do some research on reloading the 303 on the web first.
especially if your reloading for a Lee Enfield.

Case life is short with top loads, especially if you are full length resizing.

The most I get from just off max loads in my one Lee-Enfield is about 4 loadings, before incipent case seperation occurs. That's with the use of a collet resizer too boot.


A single rear locking lug has some pretty bad draw backs.

Do your math, a Steven's 200 in 308Win may be a better option.

[Lonnie]

Leeaspell check out 303 British wikipedia or just type in 303 British ammo in google and it will take you there has a good history about 303 ammo and while your there check out mark Vlll shells used in machine guns and service rifles. then when someone tells you that lee en field is not a strong rifle it will make you wonder where he got his information I new that they were stronger than most give them credit for but wuold not have thought that they could hold that kind of pressure.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Lonnie

Leeaspell check out 303 British wikipedia or just type in 303 British ammo in google and it will take you there has a good history about 303 ammo and while your there check out mark Vlll shells used in machine guns and service rifles. then when someone tells you that lee en field is not a strong rifle it will make you wonder where he got his information I new that they were stronger than most give them credit for but wuold not have thought that they could hold that kind of pressure.

So then why does Wikipedia describe receiver stretch on the Lee Enfield? (half way through the Lee-enfield section.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_action

The Enfield served a purpose, and gave excellent service for in excess of 100 years, but there is a reason why no one jumped all over the action for a commercially available action.

The 303 British is a 49000PSI SAAMI standard cartridge.
In respect to the somewhat springy action created by a single rear locking lug on all the Lee Enfield actions. (30'06 is a 60000PSI cartridge, 308Win is a 62000PSI cartridge)

Reload 180's in the 2300fps range and 150's in the 2550fps range and you will likely get maybe if your lucky upwards of 5 or 6 reloads from a casing.(using a collet die)

As of today I'm on my 12th reload on some of my 308 brass, even my M1 Garand has gotten over 8 loads on most of it's brass (usually loose pieces before getting beyond 8)

Don't get me wrong I have a blast with my No4 Mk1*, it's a great rifle to take out and shoot. Reloading for it is pretty straight forward, but chucking my brass after 4 loadings, just so I can actually follow the rear sight graduations is a PITA.

Some rifles are for fun and that nostalgic feeling, some rifles are for practicality and longevity, and functionality.

My Lee-Enfield is for the former.

[Lonnie]

Originally Posted by Dick284

So then why does Wikipedia describe receiver stretch on the Lee Enfield? (half way through the Lee-enfield section.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_action

The Enfield served a purpose, and gave excellent service for in excess of 100 years, but there is a reason why no one jumped all over the action for a commercially available action.

The 303 British is a 49000PSI SAAMI standard cartridge.
In respect to the somewhat springy action created by a single rear locking lug on all the Lee Enfield actions. (30'06 is a 60000PSI cartridge, 308Win is a 62000PSI cartridge)

Reload 180's in the 2300fps range and 150's in the 2550fps range and you will likely get maybe if your lucky upwards of 5 or 6 reloads from a casing.(using a collet die)

As of today I'm on my 12th reload on some of my 308 brass, even my M1 Garand has gotten over 8 loads on most of it's brass (usually loose pieces before getting beyond 8)

Don't get me wrong I have a blast with my No4 Mk1*, it's a great rifle to take out and shoot. Reloading for it is pretty straight forward, but chucking my brass after 4 loadings, just so I can actually follow the rear sight graduations is a PITA.

Some rifles are for fun and that nostalgic feeling, some rifles are for practicality and longevity, and functionality.

My Lee-Enfield is for the former.

Yes i understand that. one of the reasons brass does not last long in a lee enfield is that most have a long throat but as a hunting rifle they are well suited to any thing in north America the standard military load of the ww2 was 180gr bullet at 2570 ft per sec. witch a 303 will handle easily. the part that confuses most people is the max psi small bullets in bottleneck cartridge develops a lot more pressure than a bigger bullet in the same cartridge 25-06 lots of pressure 8mm-06 (32cal) a lot less pressure a 32 cal in an o6 case same wight and speed of the 30-06 at the muzzel will create less pressure than the 30-06

[Lonnie]

and the piece about reciever strech is rigth after they their telling about the lee enfield action being used on modern magnums and 50 BMG that is a lot more stress than a standerd 303 cartidge wuold have even if you were using the mark Vlll machine gun shells.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Lonnie

and the piece about reciever strech is rigth after they their telling about the lee enfield action being used on modern magnums and 50 BMG that is a lot more stress than a standerd 303 cartidge wuold have even if you were using the mark Vlll machine gun shells.

This type bolt can be used on modern magnum rounds and is found in several bolt-action .50 BMG rifles today

It says this type, not these actions, which I would take to mean a similar style action.

Put a 50BMG in a Enfield action, and how do you do sort of things are apt to happen.

Even reports on the newly manufactured M10 actions chambered in 308 are not all that glowing, case life is diminished simply because of the springy action caused by the single rear locking lug. (go to CGN and read about these accounts)

I'm sorry but the fact remains a single rear locking lug has draw backs.

You can not make a silk purse out of a sows ear, plain and simple.

If you want to reload for your Enfield go for it, stay reasonable, and follow the perscribed refrences to load information etc. Oh yeah and have lots of brass on hand too.

[Lonnie]

I do reload for my 303 lee enfeild ad my 303 BSA and have alot of empty brass as I use to pick it up every time I went to the range 25 to 30 years ago their was lots laying around most people cuold not be bothered to reload and 303 british was used by quite a few people.

[Rem - P14]

Originally Posted by Eagleye08

The 303 British has practically the identical case capacity as the 308 Winchester, so in an action like the P14, or one of the newly issued Ruger #1's, it can be loaded to equivalent pressures/velocity as the 308.
I have a #1, and it is easy to get 2600+ with the 174 Hornady RNSP or the 180 Sierra Pro-Hunter. Do NOT try going here in a Lee-Enfield, however!!
Factory ammo loaded in N.A. tends to be "soft", and in chronographing some of the ammo loaded by Winchester, Federal and Remington, the 174/180 grain loads are around 2300-2350 fps. Regards, Eagleye08

I was of the same impression as you only shy to say so because I'm not an expert on the subject! I only know the action of my Remington P-14 (1917 vintage) feels just like a rather heavy piece of machinery when the bolt is being cycled. Add to this the fact (hope its a fact, repeating it as I heard it) that the war surplus P-14s were sometimes being rechambered to accept magnum loads and it becomes a little hard to see them as being frajile in any way. I cannot comment on the quality of the metal involved between these old rifles and more modern stuff as I do not know enough to say with any authority. I guess the P-14 bolt locks differently than the Lee Enfield and there is a difference in strength there as well.
As for the .303 bullet itself, I came across an article recently that stated too many of us are placing too much of our trust in high muzzle velocity and not remembering the merits of long range kinetic energy which comes more from slower moving "heavy" bullets. I too never realized just how much variety there was in the .303 bullet weights until I started reloading.
I shoot at relatively close ranges now (200 yards and under) so most of my experience is with 150 grainers. I recently loaded some Sierra 174 grain Match stuff though and it will be very interesting to see how the P-14 digests them.
I think we would all do very well to remember though that when we are dealing with very old rifles, we should load accordingly. There really is no reason to try to prove anything by competing at magnum levels and there is no shame to load our war surplus stuff on the modest side. Let's consider it to be respect offered to an old war horse who no longer has anything to prove.

[Turtlewolf]

The P14 can and has digested everything up to at least .500 A-square, the Lee Enfield action has not and is not suitable for high pressure loads.
Cheers

[Rem - P14]

Originally Posted by Turtlewolf

The P14 can and has digested everything up to at least .500 A-square, the Lee Enfield action has not and is not suitable for high pressure loads.
Cheers

Thanks Turtlewolf:
Could you please explain the definitiion of ".500 A-square?" Does this have something to do with .50 caliber loads?
Thank-you,
Rem

[Turtlewolf]

Originally Posted by Rem - P14

Thanks Turtlewolf:
Could you please explain the definitiion of ".500 A-square?" Does this have something to do with .50 caliber loads?
Thank-you,
Rem

.500 A-square is a proprietory cartridge of A-square, if you google it prepare to have your eyes get big, it's a nasty shoulder busting beast of a cartridge based on a necked up .460 weatherby magnum. The P14 is a brutaly strong, massive action capable of handling the largest cartridges available, but the lovely (and I mean that as they are the favorite of mine above all else) Lee Enfields by way of design are not a high pressure action nor are they suitable for conversion to overly large cartridges.
Cheers

[Grouse Assassin]

Enfield vs P14 size matters lol
just so happens i had a couple of these rifles for a comparison

[Rem - P14]

Originally Posted by Turtlewolf

.500 A-square is a proprietory cartridge of A-square, if you google it prepare to have your eyes get big, it's a nasty shoulder busting beast of a cartridge based on a necked up .460 weatherby magnum. The P14 is a brutaly strong, massive action capable of handling the largest cartridges available, but the lovely (and I mean that as they are the favorite of mine above all else) Lee Enfields by way of design are not a high pressure action nor are they suitable for conversion to overly large cartridges.
Cheers

I truly thought I knew almost everything regarding the P-14 but it now occurs to me that I have been wandering around in historical sites and not trying to look into the technical enough. Thank-you very much for the education!

[Rem - P14]

Originally Posted by Grouse Assassin

Enfield vs P14 size matters lol
just so happens i had a couple of these rifles for a comparison

Thanks Grouse Assassin:
I too have an Enfield on hand and could have made that comparison for myself. I wish I had now as it may have hinted at something very strongly for me. That is quite the drastic difference isn't it? It also explains a lot.
Thank-you very much for your contribution.
Rem

[catnthehat]

Size does not absolutely mean that a bolt is stronger.
I have a Strela 22 match rifke that has three locking lugs, and is larger than the bolt on a Sako TRG3 that is chambered for .338 Lapua!
The fact remains that the .303 British and the No.4 Enfield action together are a weak combination, and the cartridge was designed for running at lower pressure than most try to push it these days.
I love the cartridge, and really like the no.4 action for various reasons, the smoothness of the bolt action being one.
A person does not need to push a 180 grain bullet at crazy speeds to kill stuff at 200 yards.....
Cat

[Turtlewolf]

I would like to add that in years past Lee Enfield style rifles were chambered in such cartridges as the .405 Winchester, .375x2.75" Nitro, .43 Spanish and the .45/70 in such rifles as the Lee Speed of England and the Remington Lee of the USA. These are also low pressure cartridges and some are more than capable of taking elephant and African buffalo. If one is currious they can google the Lee Enfield and .303 forums to find all sorts of tid bits that have been mostly lost to the masses.
Cheers

[Grouse Assassin]

Originally Posted by Rem - P14

Thanks Grouse Assassin:
I too have an Enfield on hand and could have made that comparison for myself. I wish I had now as it may have hinted at something very strongly for me. That is quite the drastic difference isn't it? It also explains a lot.
Thank-you very much for your contribution.
Rem

I just thought it would serve as the visiaul aspects of the conversation
and your welcome!

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Size does not absolutely mean that a bolt is stronger.
I have a Strela 22 match rifke that has three locking lugs, and is larger than the bolt on a Sako TRG3 that is chambered for .338 Lapua!
The fact remains that the .303 British and the No.4 Enfield action together are a weak combination, and the cartridge was designed for running at lower pressure than most try to push it these days.
I love the cartridge, and really like the no.4 action for various reasons, the smoothness of the bolt action being one.
A person does not need to push a 180 grain bullet at crazy speeds to kill stuff at 200 yards.....
Cat

lol size matters was a joke Cat and your right the Enfield action is very smooth and functions extremely well at what it was designed for.
I love my .303 it shoots cheepo ammo very well its simple reliable and gets the job done very well i dont use mine much anymore but it is a nice nostalgic piece of history IMO but back to the topic onhand i wouldnt feel the need to handload for this rifle ammo is dirt cheap they like 180's.
if you want a 500 yrd killing machine get a differant rifle JMO

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Grouse Assassin

I wouldnt feel the need to handload for this rifle ammo is dirt cheap they like 180's.

I hand load for all my rifles for the most part, because I like to use Seirra bullets, and for my service rifle I can get the 174 match kings to shoot much more accurately than I can facotry ammo when I am shooting it out to 1K.

I don't absoltely need to hand load fr my hunting rifle, I could buy factory ammo for it, but like hand loading anyway!
Cat

[Grouse Assassin]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I hand load for all my rifles for the most part, because I like to use Seirra bullets, and for my service rifle I can get the 174 match kings to shoot much more accurately than I can facotry ammo when I am shooting it out to 1K.

I don't absoltely need to hand load fr my hunting rifle, I could buy factory ammo for it, but like hand loading anyway!
Cat

1k!!!!!!!!! most mortal men dont shoot that far lol are u shooting iron sights at that range cat???????

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Grouse Assassin

1k!!!!!!!!! most mortal men dont shoot that far lol are u shooting iron sights at that range cat???????

Actually , there is a substantial amount of shooting done at 900-1,000 metres with service rifles, black powder match rifles, and iron sighted match rifles with slimgs, but match shooting, not hunting.
here's a pic of Black man droppig one into the V bull at 1K on the second shot with OPEN SIGHTS with his No.1 Lithgow!!

Cat

[Grouse Assassin]

i would so love to try this!!!!!!!!!!!!

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Grouse Assassin

i would so love to try this!!!!!!!!!!!!

it's a lot of fun, but please realize we are simply playing here.
In a match, the rifle would have to be supported prone, not layiing on a jacket, and the number of rounds would be either 10 or more, not 5 depending on the match!
Plus, the rounds would be shot on a target with scoring rimgs rings, big difference in a hit on the outer edge of a gong and the outer edge of a target!
one is accompanied by whoops and and slapping of the back and
the other usually by a steam of profanity, or at least an
"OOPS!!

Cat

[Grouse Assassin]

LOL i am nowhere good enuff to shoot a competition but i would love to watch you guys shoot these old service rifles for fun maybe take a poke with mine

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Grouse Assassin

LOL i am nowhere good enuff to shoot a competition but i would love to watch you guys shoot these old service rifles for fun maybe take a poke with mine

Ever get up to the Fort?
I have an open invitation for all AO members who look me up in the summer to come on out and shoot with me, as long as my schedule permits.
Cat

[Grouse Assassin]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Ever get up to the Fort?
I have an open invitation for all AO members who look me up in the summer to come on out and shoot with me, as long as my schedule permits.
Cat

up in the fort about once a month the outlaws live in redwater would give me a good escape plan

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Grouse Assassin

up in the fort about once a month the outlaws live in redwater would give me a good escape plan

Shoot me a PM next time you are in town!
Cat

[gitrdun]

Dang it Cat, when I come up that way I usually make it as far as Anzac, then cut across to Hanginstone. On my next trip, I'll see if I can add a couple of days of play time, I'd sure love to shoot with you.

[Gonehuntin']

Originally Posted by Eagleye08

The 303 British has practically the identical case capacity as the 308 Winchester, so in an action like the P14, or one of the newly issued Ruger #1's, it can be loaded to equivalent pressures/velocity as the 308.
I have a #1, and it is easy to get 2600+ with the 174 Hornady RNSP or the 180 Sierra Pro-Hunter. Do NOT try going here in a Lee-Enfield, however!!
Factory ammo loaded in N.A. tends to be "soft", and in chronographing some of the ammo loaded by Winchester, Federal and Remington, the 174/180 grain loads are around 2300-2350 fps. Regards, Eagleye08

IMO trying to hotrod a .303 is pointless.As above- dangerous in a Lee Enfield. Even with a #1, the brass being put out in .303 brit. is not designed to have to handle really juiced up loads, your rifle probably has no problem, but I'm thinking case life is short? I'm tinkering with a #5 Mk. 1, and I'm starting to like it.Only tried 150 Hornady SP and 180 Core Lokt so far, and 168 cast.