Question on excessive use of force

[270person]

Originally Posted by ssyd

When does dealing with a stubborn suspect become excessive force?.

When you hear, "Stop"....BANG.....Or I'll shoot."

[kingrat]

Sounds excessive, I think he should have stopped and said people kind (cause you dont actually know if it's a sir)I dont mean to offend you but would you mind rolling over.

[lannie]

The OP said he did not see the first half of the arrest. Guy was arguing about rolling over? Officer was doing the right thing IMO. If the fellow was listening he would not have had any physical force added. I would also believe that the guy getting arrested had alcohol or drugs in his blood stream too. Unless the OP videoed the altercation from beginning to end it really isn't fair to send it to a media outlet. Not all police are good, just like any other group of people but the cop your identifying sounds like one i would want on my side when crap was going down.

[graybeard]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

How was it excessive?

Subdued? That means in control. If he isn’t in cuffs it ain’t really over

X 2.....also if I saw an officer struggling in a fight, I would jump in to help the officer...Who knows at 0400 he may have been protecting me or my property? Others may not agree....IMHO

Protection of persons acting under authority

25 (1) Every one who is required or authorized by law to do anything in the administration or enforcement of the law

(a) as a private person,

(b) as a peace officer or public officer,

(c) in aid of a peace officer or public officer, or

(d) by virtue of his office,

is, if he acts on reasonable grounds, justified in doing what he is required or authorized to do and in using as much force as is necessary for that purpose.

Marginal note:Idem

(2) Where a person is required or authorized by law to execute a process or to carry out a sentence, that person or any person who assists him is, if that person acts in good faith, justified in executing the process or in carrying out the sentence notwithstanding that the process or sentence is defective or that it was issued or imposed without jurisdiction or in excess of jurisdiction.

Marginal note:When not protected

(3) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), a person is not justified for the purposes of subsection (1) in using force that is intended or is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm unless the person believes on reasonable grounds that it is necessary for the self-preservation of the person or the preservation of any one under that person’s protection from death or grievous bodily harm.

Marginal note:When protected

(4) A peace officer, and every person lawfully assisting the peace officer, is justified in using force that is intended or is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm to a person to be arrested, if

(a) the peace officer is proceeding lawfully to arrest, with or without warrant, the person to be arrested;

(b) the offence for which the person is to be arrested is one for which that person may be arrested without warrant;

(c) the person to be arrested takes flight to avoid arrest;

(d) the peace officer or other person using the force believes on reasonable grounds that the force is necessary for the purpose of protecting the peace officer, the person lawfully assisting the peace officer or any other person from imminent or future death or grievous bodily harm; and

(e) the flight cannot be prevented by reasonable means in a less violent manner.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/...ection-25.html

[kritz]

Originally Posted by Jim

Just send the recording to the local media and let them decide if it was appropriate.

No,No,No,NO,NO!!! Nobody knows the situation this officer was in other than what was on the street. 9 times out of 10 his life is in some kind of danger and the guy has done something that requires him to be taken into custody or is known to these officers.

These guys need to be able to do their jobs. That guy obviously was not cooperating. Actions needed to be taken. enough said!

If it was a poor sole he would have been more corporative with police and the force would not have escalated. It is the guy on the grounds fault.

That is how I read the story, Every on looked with have a different theory. Only the officer putting his life in danger had to make a split second decision.

[JB_AOL]

Holy ****..

Is this Outdoorsmenforum?

I'm surprised this hasn't turned into a burn the LEO thread.

[Grizzly Adams]

Amazing how many people ran to get out of the way, when the police officer was being attacked, during the Edmonton terror attack, including large physically fit males.

Grizz

[grouse_hunter]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

Holy ****..

Is this Outdoorsmenforum?

I'm surprised this hasn't turned into a burn the LEO thread.

You are right, this is Bootlicker Central.

How do any of you know that the person being tasered doesn't suffer from mental illness? How do you know that the police officer in question isn't some sadistic scumbag experiencing 'roid rage?

So much for innocent until proven guilty.

Besides, everyone knows that EPS are angels treading the sinful ground. Afterall, that is why the Law Enforcement Review Board receives nearly thrice as many complaints about them as they do about CPS.

In any case, bend over, spread those cheeks and smile for John Law...

[YYC338]

Originally Posted by grouse_hunter

You are right, this is Bootlicker Central.

How do any of you know that the person being tasered doesn't suffer from mental illness? How do you know that the police officer in question isn't some sadistic scumbag experiencing 'roid rage?

So much for innocent until proven guilty.

Besides, everyone knows that EPS are angels treading the sinful ground. Afterall, that is why the Law Enforcement Review Board receives nearly thrice as many complaints about them as they do about CPS.

In any case, bend over, spread those cheeks and smile for John Law...

Ding, ding, ding

Let's get ready to rumble

[grouse_hunter]

Originally Posted by YYC338

Ding, ding, ding

Let's get ready to rumble

I have some time today...

As for the OPs recording - it's pretty much useless. The professional standards branch of EPS exists for one reason, to stifle any legitimate complaints while maintaining the veneer of responsibility and accountability which is presented to the general public. The LERB isn't much better. Ultimately the police doesn't want to police itself.

[spoiledsaskhunter]

Originally Posted by grouse_hunter

I have some time today...

As for the OPs recording - it's pretty much useless. The professional standards branch of EPS exists for one reason, to stifle any legitimate complaints while maintaining the veneer of responsibility and accountability which is presented to the general public. The LERB isn't much better. Ultimately the police doesn't want to police itself.

what happened? you get a parking ticket?

[grouse_hunter]

Originally Posted by spoiledsaskhunter

what happened? you get a parking ticket?

Something like that, only I'm not the one who's getting railed in court

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

Lol

First time i hadnt even seen a taser before. A guy in my crew was issued one. He removed the cartridge, came up behind me and arched it between my legs.

Fyi. Your dick will move aside, all on its own, if your luggage gets tased. And it leaves little x burn marks too

One time a bunch of us joined arms in the gym and one wire from the taser was at one end and the other wire was at the other. Seeing if the current would go thru all of us. Chief walked in to see what we were up to. I looped my arm around his and buddy pulled the trigger...... current went thru all of us, chief included.

I took one 5 second cycle to see if i could stay standing. Barely, but i did it.

Nothing like knowing what it feels like before you use it on someone

Curious to know that if the cop tazed him while touching/contacting the guy wouldn't the cop get a shock as well?

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by grouse_hunter

I have some time today...

As for the OPs recording - it's pretty much useless. The professional standards branch of EPS exists for one reason, to stifle any legitimate complaints while maintaining the veneer of responsibility and accountability which is presented to the general public. The LERB isn't much better. Ultimately the police doesn't want to police itself.

The only reason the recording is useless is because the OP himself states he didn't see the beginning of the altercation.
Or do you have some crystal ball that showed what happened in the beginning of the altercation.

[grouse_hunter]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

The only reason the recording is useless is because the OP himself states he didn't see the beginning of the altercation.
Or do you have some crystal ball that showed what happened in the beginning of the altercation.

Neither do I have a crystal ball nor did I suggest that I knew what happened during the entire altercation. There are many unknown facets to this situation, I raised questions regarding a couple of them in my first post.

Either way, the tasered individual would be the one who'd have to initiate the complaint, and that in itself would constitute as a futile effort and a waste of money.

What I'm perplexed by is the readiness with which the majority of individuals here unquestionably accept the actions of a police officer, regardless of the numerous, documented instances of misconduct and criminal behavior by the benevolent defenders of the innocent.

The status quo must never be challenged, at least not around here!

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by grouse_hunter

Neither do I have a crystal ball nor did I suggest that I knew what happened during the entire altercation. There are many unknown facets to this situation, I raised questions regarding a couple of them in my first post.

Either way, the tasered individual would be the one who'd have to initiate the complaint, and that in itself would constitute as a futile effort and a waste of money.

What I'm perplexed by is the readiness with which the majority of individuals here unquestionably accept the actions of a police officer, regardless of the numerous, documented instances of misconduct and criminal behavior by the benevolent defenders of the innocent.

The status quo must never be challenged, at least not around here!

I guess I take the other side...to paraphrase your comment.... 'What I'm perplexed by is the readiness with which some individuals are so quick to denigrate LE when they don't know the entire story'.

[grouse_hunter]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

I guess I take the other side...to paraphrase your comment.... 'What I'm perplexed by is the readiness with which some individuals are so quick to denigrate LE when they don't know the entire story'.

I didn't denigrate the police officer involved in this situation as I lack all of the facts which would make it reasonable for me to do so. I simply asked a couple of questions which challenge the unwavering consensus regarding the purity and legality of the police officers actions and motives.
As for my position regarding the uniformed oafs from EPS - it stems from a personal experience that I've had the pleasure of enduring. There's not an argument in this world which will sway my opinion.
The statistics regarding the number of complains filed against EPS are available from the LERB, if you care to check.

[makin tracks]

lol, can those who claim, " police never use excessive force" please explain the Rcmp fellow using excessive force on the older woman in Quebec in a wrist lock/ arm bar, because she was asking Trudeau who was going to pay for the irregular immigrants in the hotels? good thing she didn't fall to the ground with the wrist lock arm bar. definitely looked like a hardened criminal to me

interesting to hear the rest of the story though!

https://youtu.be/5-ofTj6ZaFQ

[YYC338]

Originally Posted by makin tracks

lol, can those who claim, " police never use excessive force" please explain the Rcmp using excessive force on the older woman in Quebec in an arm lock, because she was asking Trudeau who was going to pay for the irregular immigrants in the hotels?

Am I missing something here. What was the excessive force that was used?

I saw her being held by her arm, is that the excessive force you're speaking of?

If so, most if not all parents would be guilty of using excessive force if they've every taken their child by the arm.

Hey, I'm no fan of the guy who's face she was trying to get into, but you have to know she had an agenda and wanted to create the scene she did.

I guess every time an LE puts the cuffs on a perp who doesn't meekly put their hands behind their back and hold dead still would also be using excessive force then?

[Ricki Bobby]

I'm not a cop, but i do know many. It's very simple to avoid use of any force whatsoever. Do what the cop says and if you're not breaking any laws you will be free to go without a scratch. If you start being a dick, you should expect some use of force, only you can dictate if it will be excessive or not.

[58thecat]

Was the OP telling the truth or a version of the truth....trolling perhaps?

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by YYC338

Am I missing something here. What was the excessive force that was used?

I saw her being held by her arm, is that the excessive force you're speaking of?

If so, most if not all parents would be guilty of using excessive force if they've every taken their child by the arm.

Hey, I'm no fan of the guy who's face she was trying to get into, but you have to know she had an agenda and wanted to create the scene she did.

I guess every time an LE puts the cuffs on a perp who doesn't meekly put their hands behind their back and hold dead still would also be using excessive force then?

the fine fellow had her in a wrist lock, and arm bar, for the serious crime of asking who is going to pay the bill for trudeau, i assume she was trying to get Trudeau to give an answer? is about all i can tell, anything else is pure speculation. he sure got out of there when the camera guy showed up . eh

[makin tracks]

as to the original post, there is very little info given, likely justified, no idea one way or the other.

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Was the OP telling the truth or a version of the truth....trolling perhaps?

What? seems legit to me, woke up to an altercation, took video. must be a troll?


no upside to op getting further involved, as he only got partial video i short time frame. still interesting to know what expired.

[YYC338]

Originally Posted by makin tracks

the fine fellow had her in a wrist lock, and arm bar, for the serious crime of asking who is going to pay the bill for trudeau, i assume she was trying to get Trudeau to give an answer? is about all i can tell, anything else is pure speculation. he sure got out of there when the camera guy showed up . eh

Oh please, if that's a wrist lock and arm bar, then the LE is a failure as a wrestler.

Exaggeration and drama are what these people feed off of. If she just was asking a question it would be one thing. Attempting to repeatedly shout down and disrupt a political gathering (insert your favorite or least favorite political party here) and getting in the face of a political leader will get you lead away by the arm every time.

This is getting into derail territory, if you want to talk about the "mistreatment" of protesters maybe you should start a new thread.

Back to the original story at hand.

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by YYC338

Oh please, if that's a wrist lock and arm bar, then the LE is a failure as a wrestler.

Exaggeration and drama are what these people feed off of. If she just was asking a question it would be one thing. Attempting to repeatedly shout down and disrupt a political gathering (insert your favorite or least favorite political party here) and getting in the face of a political leader will get you lead away by the arm every time.

This is getting into derail territory, if you want to talk about the "mistreatment" of protesters maybe you should start a new thread.

Back to the original story at hand.

ha, ok that wrist lock sure is effective in controlling the older woman, seems she was doing a little complaining on pain, no idea in wrestling though? maybe more pressure, body slam?

[YYC338]

Originally Posted by makin tracks

ha, ok that wrist lock sure is effective in controlling the older woman, seems she was doing a little complaining on pain, no idea in wrestling though? maybe more pressure, body slam?

Of course she was complaining, she's trying to draw attention to herself and her issue.

And it worked because you've obviously bought it, hook, line and sinker.

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by YYC338

Of course she was complaining, she's trying to draw attention to herself and her issue.

And it worked because you've obviously bought it, hook, line and sinker.

interesting! then why did the rcmp guy high tail it out of there, and not finish what he was doing?


from what i understand she is suing for $98,000 as of Aug 8-19, was he doing something illegal?

[YYC338]

Originally Posted by makin tracks

interesting! then why did the rcmp guy high tail it out of there, and not finish what he was doing?


from what i understand she is suing for $98,000 as of Aug 8-19, was he doing something illegal?

Are we watching the same video. You seem to be seeing/reading/imagining a lot of things I just don't see.

At what exact minute and second on the clip did the LEO "high tail" it out of there. I only saw her walk away from him.

How do you know he didn't finish? Maybe he accomplished what he wanted.... get her away from the PM.

Of course she's suing, it the way it's done in society these days.

This happens in civil court, why would you think there was anything illegal done? Do you know something or just pulling suppositions out of somewhere dark?

Just because you sue, if she even is, doesn't mean you will win your case.

Again start your own thread and get off this one.

[elkhunter11]

A person can't make a judgement based on a description, we would have to at least see the video, and even that may not be conclusive. The same for whether or not a person would intervene if an officer was in a fight, it would all depend on the circumstances.