Joe Blow Accuracy

[leo]

Originally Posted by GotMopar

Thanks everyone for their input, this is really helpful.

I guess the reason that I ask is that I have become quite interested in trying some longer range shots for varmint hunting, but my confidence just isn't there yet. If i can get good at it with varmints, then less of a need to think twice when big game hunting and spotting critters in the distance. I can seem to get 1-1.5" moa groups (3-shot) at 100yd and 200yd pretty consistently with the odd grouping under and odd one over, averaging closer to 1.5" moa with all groups combined. What i want to know is if thats what the rifle is capable of or if that is what the i am capable of. It is frustrating to pull the trigger and think "that was a good shot" then look at the target and see its an inch or 2 away from the first 2 shots that were tight. Almost want to hand the gun over to an experienced shooter and see what they can do, if they all of the sudden hammer out 3 x 3 shot groups that are under 1" that would make me feel good because than i know its me i need to work on. If they also can't improve much on my groupings than at least i know its the rifle and i can go down that route to troubleshoot what is wrong. I have checked all the rings, mounts, action bolts all torqued to spec, swapped scopes, excessive cleaning, tried handfuls of different ammunition (including some handloads) and haven't really been able to noticeably tighten them up. I am going to try sanding out the fore end of the stock a bit because it seems to have very thin clearance between the barrel. sometimes i still get the odd flyer that is quite out. The rifle i am currently working with is a 7mm rm x-bolt with vx3 4-14.5, its doesn't kick bad but maybe enough i flinch a bit sometimes (maybe not really sure). I usually shoot prone out of the box of my truck (when theres snow) with a bipod and soft support under the buttstock, which i can get pretty stable with and keep the reticle on the dot. Basically if i can't shoot 1 moa from an ideal position then i would imagine my groups open up quite a bit from a hunting position and trying to hit a coyote out at 300yds just wouldnt be a good idea. I think i might look into getting a smaller rifle with a heavy barrel and see what i can do with it, i need another rifle to transition with when i am target shooting anyway

You didn't mention if you have adjusted the trigger weight on the rifle. I like a crisp pull around 2.5 lbs. A lighter crisp trigger will make a subtle difference overall. Another thing you didn't mention is hearing protection. Shooting out of the box of a truck has got to be really loud. It could be causing a flinch too. ☺

[260 Rem]

GotM - Sounds like you are on the right track. Best results with your rifle can likely be achieved off a solid bench using a decent front rest and rear bag. Unless your bipod is of good quality and you know how to use it properly, it, it may be a challenge to match the "rest" for repeatability. Having a "good" shooter, test your gun is a good idea, but be aware that even good shooters sometimes need to shoot several groups before acquiring the "feel" for a rifle they are not familiar with. Are you a member of a Range?

[Cowtown guy]

I would think that the "average" Joe farmer would likely not shoot near to the number of rounds the OP has stated. The norm is likely closer to 20-50 rounds.

I talk to a large number of people as I work in a gun shop. The average guy that comes in says they buy 1 or 2 boxes of shells a year.

And most of them can't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that I shoot up to 1000 rounds a year if I can get the time. In fact they are absolutely baffled as to the amount of money it would cost to do so. My 2 uncles haven't even sighted in their rifles in 2 or 3 years.

[GotMopar]

i did adjust the trigger, actually the only other time i have posted so far on this site was about the trigger. i could only adjust it down to about 3.5 with the factory settings, i ended up cutting the trigger spring a tiny bit shorter and was able to get it down to 2.5lbs, where i like it, feels really nice and crisp when dry firing.

I do use ear plugs and the noise doesn't really bother me i don't think, i put the bipod right at the back of the opened tailgate so the end of the barrel is out past the end of the tailgate. I feel comfortably shooting this way, but maybe i should try a bench.

I am not a member of a range, i was a member of sher. park fish and game a few years back but it expired and i didn't renew. I have heard it is quite difficult to get back in. I have a cabin out in smoky lake county and know some good shooting spots there where i can shoot up to 1000yds, so i usually just head out that way and can shoot how i please. Plus by the time i drive there its the same distance as the ranges. I have a harris bipod on the front.

When i said 500 ads i guess i was referring to all types, i can chew through shotgun ammunition shooting clays pretty quick, its easy to go through a case of 250 with a couple guys in a single session. Mind you i have put about 100 rounds through my 7mm already this year.

[Jadham]

I think there is a (big) difference between field shooting and bench shooting. I just don't hunt from a weighted rest.

So I base my decisions on my field shooting. As a "joe blow" shooter with my current main rifle that means 150 meter or less (ideally 100 or less) from sitting position and 200 meters or less while prone.... 6 inch group or smaller. Doesn't sound great but I prefer to be honest with myself when it comes to being in the field.

[3blade]

i would lose the bipod and see how it can shoot off a proper bench. Then you know if that's the limiting factor. Never hurts to let a trusted experienced shooter see what he can do.

TBH though I doubt you will see anything better unless you develop a hand load for it.

1-1.5 inch at 100, shooting at game up to 300 (maybe 400 with a CDS or the like) is pretty well the standard for factory equipment. Of course there are exceptions.

If you want to play the long range game, break out your wallet.

[JWCalgary]

, i put the bipod right at the back of the opened tailgate so the end of the barrel is out past the end of the tailgate. I feel comfortably shooting this way, but maybe i should try a bench.
.[/QUOTE]


Not to derail here and don't mean to come across the wrong way but the forum has some useful info (for me at least) once in a while. i used to shoot from the bed of my truck until I learned that it is not allowed by law, something to the effect of "cannot have a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle"

Just an FYI

[BigRedJeep]

When I first started 100yrd bench shooting I was happy with the 2-3in groups that I got. Then I Started shooting 10m air pistol at age 15. Now I'm only happy if 5 shots at 100 are in an inch circle, Production rifles with tuned hand loads. 2in off the bench is certainly "Gud nuff" to git r dun. But I want to know exactly where my bullet is gonna end up every time I squeeze the trigger, as to not have an excuse as to why I missed that yote at 300yrds. I may not be the best hunter but only taking real shots in natural situations is how one gets better "minute of deer accuracy" Something I haven't had the privilege of getting the last few years..
Wes

[GotMopar]

Thanks, this is helpful information. I had actually not thought of that before. I get the law that you have mentioned has its place, but i would definitely argue with an officer trying giving me grief over shooting out of the bed of my truck when I'm clearly target practicing. Im not using the truck as a vehicle, its just a handy, elevated, dry place to lay back in the bush. None the less i wouldn't expect the law to understand. Its a pain in the ass to set up a table etc but i will try to do it in the future.

Originally Posted by JWCalgary

, i put the bipod right at the back of the opened tailgate so the end of the barrel is out past the end of the tailgate. I feel comfortably shooting this way, but maybe i should try a bench.
.

Not to derail here and don't mean to come across the wrong way but the forum has some useful info (for me at least) once in a while. i used to shoot from the bed of my truck until I learned that it is not allowed by law, something to the effect of "cannot have a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle"

Just an FYI[/QUOTE]

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by GotMopar

Thanks, this is helpful information. I had actually not thought of that before. I get the law that you have mentioned has its place, but i would definitely argue with an officer trying giving me grief over shooting out of the bed of my truck when I'm clearly target practicing. Im not using the truck as a vehicle, its just a handy, elevated, dry place to lay back in the bush. None the less i wouldn't expect the law to understand. Its a pain in the ass to set up a table etc but i will try to do it in the future.




Not to derail here and don't mean to come across the wrong way but the forum has some useful info (for me at least) once in a while. i used to shoot from the bed of my truck until I learned that it is not allowed by law, something to the effect of "cannot have a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle"

Just an FYI

[/QUOTE]


It is not illegal to use your vehicle as a rest if you are off the road and are outside of your vehicle. I was told this by a F&W officer who also stated if I ever have an issue with this that he would go to court in my defence, gave me his business card.

He did say you cannot be in your vehicle, box included.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

It is no illegal to use your vehicle as a rest if you are off the road and are outside of your vehicle. I was told this by a F&W officer who also stated if I ever have an issue with this that he would go to court in my defence, gave me his business card.

That does not match up with what I have been to by other officers,

From the wildlife act

A person shall not

have a loaded firearm on or in a vehicle, aircraft or boat,
other than a boat so propelled or anchored

I see no mention of being on or off of the road or being in or out of the vehicle. The key word appears to be on, so if the loaded firearm is on the vehicle, that would constitute a violation.

I have had officers go so far as to ask to see if a shotgun laying on the tailgate was loaded, and was told that had it been loaded, I would have been charged.

[lannie]

There is the link to an email address in the hunting section where you can ask a fish and wildlife officer if you wanted the answer from the horses mouth.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=223913

That being said I understood if you were in the middle of a gopher patch on your own land and were leaning on the fender of your pick up you could be charged but i have been wrong before.

[ForwardBias]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

At 100 yards:
Bench rest at the range,2"
Off elbows at the range , 4"
Offhand at the range, 1 foot
On the Internet , 1/2" or better

Cat

Well played.

[Flight01]

1 1/2" or less. If it's a 2" group and you're limited to factory ammo then keep
Trying a new weight, make, composition of ammo until you are doing better.

[H380]

Merely by coincidence ,my 2 go to hunting rifles fall into the OP's original statement of caliber and price range . Both fall into the 1" , 3 shot group at 100 yds category and thats plenty good for me .

[catnthehat]

It was proven to me a very long time ago that the difference between a 1/2" gun and a 1 1/2" gun means next to nothing at 300 yards on an animal once the human factor is thrown into the mix.
Cat

[Altaboy]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

It was proven to me a very long time ago that the difference between a 1/2" gun and a 1 1/2" gun means next to nothing at 300 yards on an animal once the human factor is thrown into the mix.
Cat

While I do agree with that statement a 1/2" rifle does give a guy a bit more confidence or maybe it's just pride

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

That does not match up with what I have been to by other officers,

From the wildlife act



I see no mention of being on or off of the road or being in or out of the vehicle. The key word appears to be on, so if the loaded firearm is on the vehicle, that would constitute a violation.

I have had officers go so far as to ask to see if a shotgun laying on the tailgate was loaded, and was told that had it been loaded, I would have been charged.

Do you want his name and number? You can call him and be told by a F&W officer.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Altaboy

While I do agree with that statement a 1/2" rifle does give a guy a bit more confidence or maybe it's just pride

The problem with confidence is that many think it will make up for lousy shooting - we see it all the time at the range.
Pride of ownership is another thing altogether and I like nice looking , accurate rifles as well as the next guy!
Cat

[Dom4]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

At 100 yards:
Bench rest at the range,2"
Off elbows at the range , 4"
Offhand at the range, 1 foot
On the Internet , 1/2" or better

Cat

haha gave me a good laugh this morning

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Do you want his name and number? You can call him and be told by a F&W officer.

Unfortunately being told something by one officer, is no guarantee that another officer will interpret the regulation the same way. It's also no guarantee of how a judge will interpret it.

While I do agree with that statement a 1/2" rifle does give a guy a bit more confidence or maybe it's just pride

The more accurate the rifle is , the more error the shooter can make and still hit the vital zone. As well, if you are shooting small targets at longer ranges, a more accurate rifle/load is an advantage. I know that when I am shooting ground squirrels at over 200 yards, which I do on a regular basis in the summer,, my odds are much better with a 1/2moa rifle, than they are with a 1-1/2moa rifle.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Do you want his name and number? You can call him and be told by a F&W officer.

That's one officer using his discretion. The next officer in the next jurisdiction will charge you for leaning a loaded rifle against your tire for a minute when you take a pee and the judge will convict you. I highly doubt your officer friend is going to go to court to testify against another officer over a minor charge. Not many people are going to take a grey area case like that to the supreme court, they just pay the fine and carry on. To avoid a hassle it is simply easier to follow the rules to not have a loaded gun in or on, which depending on the officers discretion and judges opinion may include any loaded gun held by a person touching, leaning against a vehicle or contacting a vehicle in any manner while holding a loaded gun or firing a gun.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Unfortunately being told something by one officer, is no guarantee that another officer will interpret the regulation the same way. It's also no guarantee of how a judge will interpret it.

You are posting what you're interpretion of the law is, I am posting what a F&W officer, with over 25yrs experience has told me.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

That's one officer using his discretion. The next officer in the next jurisdiction will charge you for leaning a loaded rifle against your tire for a minute when you take a pee and the judge will convict you. I highly doubt your officer friend is going to go to court to testify against another officer over a minor charge. Not many people are going to take a grey area case like that to the supreme court, they just pay the fine and carry on. To avoid a hassle it is simply easier to follow the rules to not have a loaded gun in or on, which depending on the officers discretion and judges opinion may include any loaded gun held by a person touching, leaning against a vehicle or contacting a vehicle in any manner while holding a loaded gun or firing a gun.

This officer is not a friend of mine, and went as far as giving me his business card and stated he would go to court in my defence if I ever have an issue if this particular scenario ever arose.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

You are posting what you're interpretion of the law is, I am posting what a F&W officer, with over 25yrs experience has told me.

I am also posting what other officers have told me is their interpretation of the law. People have been charged and convicted for simply having a loaded firearm laying on a vehicle. Different officers have different interpretations, and once you have been charged, only the judge's interpretation matters. As Bushrat posted, I doubt that the officer that you mentioned is going to drive across the province to testify on your behalf, if another officer charges you. Furthermore, I doubt that the judge would care what that officer had to say, he is going to use his own interpretation to decide if you are guilty or innocent.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I am also posting what other officers have told me is their interpretation of the law. People have been charged and convicted for simply having a loaded firearm laying on a vehicle. Different officers have different interpretations, and once you have been charged, only the judge's interpretation matters. As Bushrat posted, I doubt that the officer that you mentioned is going to drive across the province to testify on your behalf, if another officer charges you. Furthermore, I doubt that the judge would care what that officer had to say, he is going to use his own interpretation to decide if you are guilty or innocent.

How about I give you his name and number and you give him a call, ask him his interpretation of the law, then ask him if he would testify for you in court, then you come back on this thread and post what he says?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

How about I give you his name and number and you give him a call, ask him his interpretation of the law, then ask him if he would testify for you in court, then you come back on this thread and post what he says?

\

I prefer to simply avoid doing something that an officer may or may not charge me for, and that a judge may or may not convict me for. I don't need to shoot off of a vehicle , so why go looking for trouble?

[Altaboy]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

The problem with confidence is that many think it will make up for lousy shooting - we see it all the time at the range.
Pride of ownership is another thing altogether and I like nice looking , accurate rifles as well as the next guy!
Cat

The best 1/2" rifle in the world isn't without a good shooter a nd you are right about ****ty shooting at the range. I see it all the time guys will show up with a $3000 dollar outfit and a $50 shooting rest and then wonder why the rifle isn't performing.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Altaboy

The best 1/2" rifle in the world isn't without a good shooter a nd you are right about ****ty shooting at the range. I see it all the time guys will show up with a $3000 dollar outfit and a $50 shooting rest and then wonder why the rifle isn't performing.

Or shoot it off the bench because they can't hit squat at 100 yards from the unsupported positions or off a pack, etc.......
Cat

[Mateo]

$50 sandbag would be more than ideal? Or are you referring to the adjustable rest with all the wheels and gizmos. I shoot off of an Atlas bipod for prone, Harris bipod for sitting, and rice filled bag for bench and some prone.