Baiting In Alberta

[NIKON]

[QUOTE=sheephunter;1752217]LOL...not on anything keg....just being honest While you are putting words in mouth, perhaps make an attempt to get them right though I never suggested I would do it again....I said I didn't know if I would do it again. I guess your words fit your needs better though.

Surprised you never considered the outfiter angle considering how knowledgeable you appear to be on this subject....but you are right, they would put out an incredible amount of bait.[/QUOTE]

There are some restrictions on baiting amounts in Sask, page 9
Educate yourselves

http://www.environment.gov.sk.ca/Def...9-253883e8b8e2

40 deer on a 1/4 section of alfalfa vs 40 deer on a 10' diameter bait pile that is refilled every day. Seriously, some of you are having trouble seeing the difference.

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

40 deer on a 1/4 section of alfalfa vs 40 deer on a 10' diameter bait pile that is refilled every day. Seriously, some of you are having trouble seeing the difference.

OR

40 deer on a 10 acre alfalfa field for 6-8 months of the year compared to 40 deer on a 10' diameter bait for 1 month of the year .......

Originally Posted by NIKON

OR

40 deer on a 10 acre alfalfa field for 6-8 months of the year compared to 40 deer on a 10' diameter bait for 1 month of the year .......

Figure out how many times a 10' circle goes into 10 acres and get back to me...........not even close to the same concentration. Lots of outfitters are baiting at least three months too and I suspect they'd be the biggest source of bait. Many have argued for year round baiting too as a supplimental source of winter feed or for running trail cams.

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Figure out how many times a 10' circle goes into 10 acres and get back to me...........not even close to the same concentration. Lots of outfitters are baiting at least three months too and I suspect they'd be the biggest source of bait. Many have argued for year round baiting too as a supplimental source of winter feed or for running trail cams.

Hey Sheep

I'm not saying baiting is right for Alberta , in fact I personally wouldn't want to see this happen...... I do believe it would tie up parcels of land and limit access.......
I just have a hard time believing all this nonsense re baiting spreads cwd and we continue to elk and deer farm in Alberta ........ I mean really

Originally Posted by NIKON

Hey Sheep

I just have a hard time believing all this nonsense re baiting spreads cwd and we continue to elk and deer farm in Alberta ........ I mean really

Why would you have a hard time believing that? The government does all kinds of stupid/hypocritical stuff.....I mean really.

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Why would you have a hard time believing that? The government does all kinds of stupid/hypocritical stuff.....I mean really.

Agreed

[justinO]

I just want to clarify two topics addressed in the last few posts.
1. I understand the concentration of a small area of soil at a bait pile will be greater compared to the grain field. Yes a bait pile that is hit consistently in the same spot will have the chance at concentrating prions from a infected animal. But what about the stationary grain piles, bail stacks, and bins that don't move are these not similar to bait piles?
I am not saying the fields of standing grain are going to concentrate the soil like a bait pile will I am talking about direct contact situations they create with many different animals from different home ranges. Here is my question with no factual evidence of how exactly the disease is spread would you believe direct contact animal to animal licking, intercourse etc etc or soil contamination would be a higher chance of transmission?

2. As for baiting rather call it feeding, I spend my own time and money to feed the animals after hunting season yes I put out cameras but would still feed them if there wasn't a buck or there wasn't a camera. I will try to do anything I can to help them survive the winters. Now after reading and researching I will do one thing different I will not concentrate my feed source for the issue of soil contamination. This means more work for me but that is fine.
Also some that are hinting anyone who feeds animals hunt over it well you are assuming and wrong. Some of use just care more than the vast majority of hunters who only take take take and never give back. I can sleep great at night looking at my deer on the wall even though very modest in size knowing they were all killed 100% legally in legal light and NOT over bait piles.

If you are going to reply to this post there are three questions please answer all or none thanks.

Justin

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I can't imagine anyone thinking that a field of anything would be even close to the equivalent to a bait pile. I guess that means we agree on that point.

I've never heard of any law, rule, or government policy that says that grain spills have to be cleaned up. Nor has anyone I know ever received any sort of warning, fine or directive in relation to spilled rain.

Granted, I only have a few relives who farm, including two brothers, and four BIL, not to mention at least a dozen close friends and a couple of former employers. And when I called them they said they had never heard of such a thing. But maybe they all just got lucky.
However, a google search found nothing about any government law, policy, or directive concerning spilled grain.

How do you figure bait piles would introduce non native grasses and seeds?
Assuming that local feed supplies are utilized as would almost certainly be the case, where would these grasses and seeds come from?

If feed were to be imported, it would have to go through the same stringent inspections that ALL agricultural products HAVE to go through.

I'm curious, where did you come up with these ideas? Could you link us to a source for you information? I would like to see it or them.

With nearly sixty years of life on and around farms I have never heard of anything like this, except from people who had no idea what they were talking about.

I'm not saying that you don't, but I have grave doubts about your sources.

That's a very huge assumption, but I guess that's the moto of this thread.....

Keg you ever walk down the bait isle at bass pro or other stores? Does any of that stuff look native to the area that people are baiting in???

So bringing some noxious weed or plant or their seeds, and spreading them out somewhere up on an alpine meadow,in the mountains, wouldn't be detrimental to that Eco system at all???? It's no different than those Japanese fish that were introduced down south.....

Why do you assume that the bait being used will be native to the area? The bait used by the master baiter , will be anything and everything they think will
give them an advantage.

Step out of your bubble. Try to think, how others would......

[shedcrazy]

How do you figure bait piles would introduce non native grasses and seeds?
Assuming that local feed supplies are utilized as would almost certainly be the case, where would these grasses and seeds come from?

Keg you should probably do some research of what is native and what is non-native to AB. Lots of feed sources (that can be local) are non-native and I would hate to see them in what is left of native pasture or in our forestry. Prime examples are Smooth Brome, Crested Wheat, sweet clover, etc. While these species might be good for forage, they are not great for all native sps to live or nest in. Majority of people including hunters probably think these species are native and these sps would benefit all wildlife but that is not the case.

As well, like Potty mentioned there are lots of other sps that can be bought from US bait products that could easily bring in a noxious or non-native forb or grass.

That is why baiting works..it's normally something that is not from the area. Baiting with hay made from sedges in a slough isn't going to be as successful as some sweet clover and brome hay.

If "we" as hunters want to be known as conservationist then maybe we need to think about our actions in more of ong-term sense than just in the short-term.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

Keg you should probably do some research of what is native and what is non-native to AB.

Actually I didn't say the feed would be native to the area. I said it would be local to the area. Big difference.

I am well aware, probably more aware then you are of what farm crops are native to Canada and which are not. Do you know which ones are native to Canada? None that I know of.

Even the feed sold in stores contains ingredients that could be found in many farmers fields in the west.

In fact the majority of Vegetative ingredients are common in Alberta.

It is possible that something new would be introduced this way. But no more likely then for something new to be introduced via the agriculture and gardening items, seeds, machinery ext, brought into this province every day.

Like I said, there are strict controls over such products to minimize the introduction of new species and pathogens. But the system is not prefect, it never was and it never will be.

If you think that farm crop plants can not be found growing where they were not planted, then you have your head in the sand. Farm grown species are everywhere in the environment. If it can grow there, it IS there.

Seeds of all kinds get shook off equipment being transported down our highways. Wind blows others for miles. Birds and animals transport farm grown seeds all over the place. Seeds get caught in peoples cloths and dropped miles away. And then there is the horse feed hauled far back into the mountains and forests and scattered about by the Cowboys and outfitters.

This is nothing new, it's been going on ever since white men first set foot in North America.

I'm amazed that anyone would think that a few hunters feed piles would make it worse.

There is a lot of points on which one could argue against baiting. The introduction of non native plants is the least of these.

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I am well aware, probably more aware then you are of what farm crops are native to Canada and which are not. Do you know which ones are native to Canada?

.

LOL, Keg you are priceless. Always a good idea to know who you are talking to before throwing statements like that out. Now I'm wondering if you are on something....lol

Originally Posted by justinO

I just want to clarify two topics addressed in the last few posts.
1. I understand the concentration of a small area of soil at a bait pile will be greater compared to the grain field. Yes a bait pile that is hit consistently in the same spot will have the chance at concentrating prions from a infected animal. But what about the stationary grain piles, bail stacks, and bins that don't move are these not similar to bait piles?
I am not saying the fields of standing grain are going to concentrate the soil like a bait pile will I am talking about direct contact situations they create with many different animals from different home ranges. Here is my question with no factual evidence of how exactly the disease is spread would you believe direct contact animal to animal licking, intercourse etc etc or soil contamination would be a higher chance of transmission?

2. As for baiting rather call it feeding, I spend my own time and money to feed the animals after hunting season yes I put out cameras but would still feed them if there wasn't a buck or there wasn't a camera. I will try to do anything I can to help them survive the winters. Now after reading and researching I will do one thing different I will not concentrate my feed source for the issue of soil contamination. This means more work for me but that is fine.
Also some that are hinting anyone who feeds animals hunt over it well you are assuming and wrong. Some of use just care more than the vast majority of hunters who only take take take and never give back. I can sleep great at night looking at my deer on the wall even though very modest in size knowing they were all killed 100% legally in legal light and NOT over bait piles.

If you are going to reply to this post there are three questions please answer all or none thanks.

Justin

1) Absolutely they are similar...I think the research that Bambi posted from Cabri shows that.

2) I'd say all are sources of transmission....not sure that rating them really accomplishes anything nor do I know if it's possible.

I don't see a third question......

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Figure out how many times a 10' circle goes into 10 acres and get back to me...........not even close to the same concentration. Lots of outfitters are baiting at least three months too and I suspect they'd be the biggest source of bait. Many have argued for year round baiting too as a supplimental source of winter feed or for running trail cams.

You have that right. Even in one acre, a ten foot circle would look awful small.

Let's see, one acre equals 4,840 square yards or 16 1/2 feet by a half mile.
Or roughly 260 ten foot circles.

And I agree with you that outfitters would not just put out bait for a month or two. It would be for close to half a year in many cases, and I wouldn't doubt that some would put out bait all year round if they could.

I can understand people being against baiting, and I have no interest in that debate, one way or the other.

But there is something I don't understand in this CWD debate.
As I understand it, CWD is very closely related to Mad Cow Disease.

Farmers were told that TSE, the bovine version of CWD effects mostly brain cells, so how is it shed everywhere an animal goes and why wasn't TSE shed where ever the cow went. Why was it safe to eat the meat of an infected cow but not the brain when it can be transmitted by proteins shed at random?

I tried google but could find no explanation for this. In fact, all I could find was inconclusive. I read that they think prions may be the cause but that a bacterium called Spiroplasma may be the infectious agent.

And why isn't tuberculosis and brucellosis as much or more of a concern?

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL, Keg you are priceless. Always a good idea to know who you are talking to before throwing statements like that out. Now I'm wondering if you are on something....lol

I said, on too something, not on something. You do know the difference don't you?

Now who is putting words in whose mouth? And wasn't it you who said you hate it when people do that to you? I think there's a term for that.


And, does he know who he is talking to? He said I should do some research, like I have no idea what plants are native and which are not. Really!!

[shedcrazy]

LOL!

Keg anytime you want to talk about native and non-native vegetation either in common names or in Latin let me know.

From reading your post I highly doubt you know the effects that invasive Sps have had or will have on our ecosystems Nor have you looked at a label at Cabelas or Bass Pro. I am not 100% in agreement that just because it's local it's ok either. If I have hay that is contaminated with scentless chamomile, knapweed, or tansy in one section doesn't mean it's ok to put it in another local section.
Comparing direct and in-direct spreading of invasive Sps is foolish. I am amazed at your comments and if you can't understand the difference of making a food plot of non-native Sps or using non-native feed in native habitat and farming I don't think I can help you! No doubt there are tons of vectors that non native Sps have entered our province but do we need or want yet another that provides little to no benefits?
We must learn from the past......not be blind to it.

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I said, on too something, not on something. You do know the difference don't you?

Now who is putting words in whose mouth? And wasn't it you who said you hate it when people do that to you? I think there's a term for that.


And, does he know who he is talking to? He said I should do some research, like I have no idea what plants are native and which are not. Really!!

Ooops...my bad...sorry...missed the "to" Need to read slower.

Should I expect your apology shortly?

[justinO]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

1) Absolutely they are similar...I think the research that Bambi posted from Cabri shows that.

2) I'd say all are sources of transmission....not sure that rating them really accomplishes anything nor do I know if it's possible.

I don't see a third question......

Yes sorry two questions lol my bad.

Do you know anything about baiting changing their feeding patterns/digestion system. I have researched this briefly in the past some say this can be deadly as their digestive systems take time to adapt to the food source available if they are feed then stopped immediately as it takes times for them to turn to browse again. I find this very alarming with the topic of baiting for hunting. As most will only bait till the season is over or they killed their animal. I was always told if you feed them you can't stop till spring to be safe.
Just wondering what your take is on this topic.

Originally Posted by justinO

Yes sorry two questions lol my bad.

Do you know anything about baiting changing their feeding patterns/digestion system. I have researched this briefly in the past some say this can be deadly as their digestive systems take time to adapt to the food source available if they are feed then stopped immediately as it takes times for them to turn to browse again. I find this very alarming with the topic of baiting for hunting. As most will only bait till the season is over or they killed their animal. I was always told if you feed them you can't stop till spring to be safe.
Just wondering what your take is on this topic.

I honestly haven't done enough research to comment.

[justinO]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I honestly haven't done enough research to comment.

Ok was just curious thought you might know maybe someone else will. This would be a serious concern I would have with baiting being passed if it is in fact true.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Quite a few of the outdoor trade shows advertise different forms of "biologic" etc.... I often wondered how it was possible to bring that in from out of country and basically plant it where ever and when ever....to the best of my knowledge these products and their use is not regulated in Canada or Alberta.

LC

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

You have that right. Even in one acre, a ten foot circle would look awful small.

Let's see, one acre equals 4,840 square yards or 16 1/2 feet by a half mile.
Or roughly 260 ten foot circles.

And I agree with you that outfitters would not just put out bait for a month or two. It would be for close to half a year in many cases, and I wouldn't doubt that some would put out bait all year round if they could.

I can understand people being against baiting, and I have no interest in that debate, one way or the other.

But there is something I don't understand in this CWD debate.
As I understand it, CWD is very closely related to Mad Cow Disease.

Farmers were told that TSE, the bovine version of CWD effects mostly brain cells, so how is it shed everywhere an animal goes and why wasn't TSE shed where ever the cow went. Why was it safe to eat the meat of an infected cow but not the brain when it can be transmitted by proteins shed at random?

I tried google but could find no explanation for this. In fact, all I could find was inconclusive. I read that they think prions may be the cause but that a bacterium called Spiroplasma may be the infectious agent.

And why isn't tuberculosis and brucellosis as much or more of a concern?

Hey Keg

Just gonna adress the baiting year round issue , from experience baiting (In Sask)as early as even /OCT is for the most part a waste of time..... Too many grain fields unharvested and way too many easy food sources available.... Baiting usually works the best once the snow flies or after farmers have harvested their crops....... Now as far as baitng after the season for the most part would only help some deer make it thru the winter and wouldn't really benefit a hunter as far as attracting deer for the following season....Now I think a deer would far sooner hit a fresh pea field then an dried out old hay bale in July Aug or Sept wouldn't you agree?.... But mineral on the other hand is usually more of a spring summer deal..... JMHO

Thought I'd better edit ( In Sask ) wouldn't want anyone here to assume anything.....

Nikon,

[st99]

Originally Posted by NIKON

Hey Keg

Just gonna adress the baiting year round issue , from experience baiting (In Sask)as early as even /OCT is for the most part a waste of time..... Too many grain fields unharvested and way too many easy food sources available.... Baiting usually works the best once the snow flies or after farmers have harvested their crops....... Now as far as baitng after the season for the most part would only help some deer make it thru the winter and wouldn't really benefit a hunter as far as attracting deer for the following season....Now I think a deer would far sooner hit a fresh pea field then an dried out old hay bale in July Aug or Sept wouldn't you agree?.... But mineral on the other hand is usually more of a spring summer deal..... JMHO

Nikon,

Sorry but I have to disagree with you, where I grew up almost every hunter bait for deer. When it started 20 years ago it was during the season only, then people felt the competition with other hunters, so they started to bait a month before the season hoping to have more deer at their site. And for the last 10 years most guys bait year round, afraid that the deer won't come back after visiting another bait. And I have family members that end up with bullet holes in their truck for hunting too close from somebody else bait..... is it what you want to see in alberta ?

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by st99

Sorry but I have to disagree with you, where I grew up almost every hunter bait for deer. When it started 20 years ago it was during the season only, then people felt the competition with other hunters, so they started to bait a month before the season hoping to have more deer at their site. And for the last 10 years most guys bait year round, afraid that the deer won't come back after visiting another bait. And I have family members that end up with bullet holes in their truck for hunting too close from somebody else bait..... is it what you want to see in alberta ?

OK heres the deal , your talking a month before the season ,,,,, Year round?... I'll call you on that one, No way a deer would rather hit an old dried out hay bale or hard dried out old peas when they could feast on fresh lush peas or new sprout alfalfa during the summer months...... Not a chance
Now before you assume anything!!!!! a couple post ago I said , I wouldn't want this in Alberta for the fact it could possibly limit access to some land ..... But thanks for your input, not sure where your from but the bullet thing well let's just leave that on one alone..... What ever!!!

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

I am not 100% in agreement that just because it's local it's ok either. If I have hay that is contaminated with scentless chamomile, knapweed, or tansy in one section doesn't mean it's ok to put it in another local section.

Where did I say any of that is okay.

And you want me to believe you know more then I do about farm crops and weeds. You had better learn to read first.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by st99

Sorry but I have to disagree with you, where I grew up almost every hunter bait for deer. When it started 20 years ago it was during the season only, then people felt the competition with other hunters, so they started to bait a month before the season hoping to have more deer at their site. And for the last 10 years most guys bait year round, afraid that the deer won't come back after visiting another bait. And I have family members that end up with bullet holes in their truck for hunting too close from somebody else bait..... is it what you want to see in alberta ?

Interesting. But do you think it will be the same here. Sorry, my keyboard is acting up again. The punctuation keys are all messed up.

I don't know where you grew up, but I'm guessing, Ontario. If that's where you are talking about, I suspect it wouldn't work the same way here.
But I'm not sure.

I gather you do, so why would it. Wouldn't the availability of farm crops make baiting useless most of the summer. And why bait all winter where there is no other people putting out bait.

[st99]

Originally Posted by NIKON

OK heres the deal , your talking a month before the season ,,,,, Year round?... . Not a chance

This is what my relatives and friends do, ok some of it is not really accessible in alberta, but that's how it is back east :

september till the end of november : apples and corn

december to april : hay bale

may to august : salt and other minerals with grains and molasses on the side

the deer are coming daily.... 365 days a year even with fresh crops in the fields

[st99]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

And why bait all winter where there is no other people putting out bait.

help the herd, prevent die off, prevent migration

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by st99

This is what my relatives and friends do, ok some of it is not really accessible in alberta, but that's how it is back east :

september till the end of november : apples and corn

december to april : hay bale

may to august : salt and other minerals with grains and molasses on the side

the deer are coming daily.... 365 days a year even with fresh crops in the fields

I disagree, not from my experience...... Most deer won't hit the baits til late Oct / Nov....May be different out east don't know.. Mineral is another animal, don't kid yourself mineral doesn't just go away and i'm under the assumption mineral baiting in Alberta is live and well.....lol....... But for the most part deer don't hit a mineral lick daily , Oh and u mentioned molasses?... Unless you want bears at your deer bait.......lol

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by justinO

Yes sorry two questions lol my bad.

Do you know anything about baiting changing their feeding patterns/digestion system. I have researched this briefly in the past some say this can be deadly as their digestive systems take time to adapt to the food source available if they are feed then stopped immediately as it takes times for them to turn to browse again. I find this very alarming with the topic of baiting for hunting. As most will only bait till the season is over or they killed their animal. I was always told if you feed them you can't stop till spring to be safe.
Just wondering what your take is on this topic.

here is some it on the reports for CWD on baiting and cites reports that i posted earlier

David

The potential effects of providing food to wildlife typically extend well beyond the population of the targeted species, especially if food is provided over a prolonged period. Disease has already been described to affect multiple species in a community. Competition among species for limited resources often increases as the density of animals increase in a feeding area (Williamson, 2000). Over many years, the composition of a community can change markedly – plant and animal diversity is reduced, and plant abundance declines (Casey and Hein, 1983; DeCalesta, 1994). The ability of a habitat to support animal life, its carrying capacity, is diminished (Doenier et al., 1997; Williamson, 2000). Further, if plant materials are provided for artificial feed, there is increased likelihood of invasion by exotic plant species (Fig. 7) (Kosowan and Yungwirth, 1999; Alien Plant Working Group, 2000; Spurrier and Drees, 2000). Processing of plant materials into pellets through crushing and steaming greatly reduces, but does not entirely eliminate, the presence of viable weed seeds (Cash et al., 1998). The effects of invasion can be devastating (IUCN, 1999; Alien Plant Working Group, 2000) and include:
1. Reduction of biodiversity;
2. Loss of and encroachment upon endangered and threatened species and their habitat;
3. Loss of habitat for native insects, birds, and other wildlife;
4. Loss of food sources for wildlife;
5. Changes to natural ecological processes such as plant community succession;
6. Alterations to the frequency and intensity of natural fires;
7. Disruption of native plant-animal associations such as pollination, seed dispersal and host-plant relationships; and
8. Alterations in soil characteristics resulting in soil erosion.
The prevention of introducing biological invaders into the environment has been identified to be of the highest priority by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (1999).
Review of the ecological and human social effects of artificial feeding and baiting of wildlife 18
Figure