Sheep on a Draw?

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Everybody is crying about wanting to shoot mature Rams only, isn't a legal Ram that makes either 4/5 or full curl not a mature Ram.

Based on what we defined before as a mature ram it was not horn length but age being a baseline of 8 years old.

Originally Posted by ram crazy

As for outfitters don't they pay some landowners to keep there land posted and closed to Albertans, because some people cry about that on this forum as well.

Can outfitters pay landowners for exclusive access to private land?
Paid access (leasing) is a common practice in many countries. In Alberta, this process is illegal. Within our province,we believe that hunting should be accessible by all people – regardless of their financial status. No one is allowed to pay a landowner for access – nor is a landowner allowed to solicit for access.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Swarovski

Based on what we defined before as a mature ram it was not horn length but age being a baseline of 8 years old.


Can outfitters pay landowners for exclusive access to private land?
Paid access (leasing) is a common practice in many countries. In Alberta, this process is illegal. Within our province,we believe that hunting should be accessible by all people – regardless of their financial status. No one is allowed to pay a landowner for access – nor is a landowner allowed to solicit for access.

You'll get some Rams that are 8 yrs old and not legal as well so now it back to counting annulars and it is harder to do on Bighorn. According to some on this forum the outfitters are doing it.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by Swarovski

Some interesting facts on the outfitting industry in Alberta:
http://www.huntingfortomorrow.com/HF...20Oct%2008.pdf

If you call this nothing then I guess your right, they give nothing back...
How do Albertans benefit from the outfitting industry?

Wildlife is a renewable resource – much like timber, grain, or cattle. Proper management requires a carefully planned harvest, and offering a limited number of opportunities for non-Albertans is more than simply neighborly. The outfitted hunting industry generates over $100 million of economic activity, and over 1500 people owe their permanent jobs to the operational expenditures of outfitters. Most importantly, our “open door” policy is reciprocated to all Albertans who wish to enjoy hunting opportunities in other jurisdictions.


Again, all of that being said I am not siding with the outfitters on this issue I just believe that there is a place for the outfitting industry.

Do you beleive everything you reed? I dont beleive that. As for outfitters I dont real care about there business I just think that if this goes in to effect they should be the ones giving there tags up or they should start with them.

[bowhuntercam]

Originally Posted by Swarovski

Can they do more? Without question, but so can we as resident Albertans.

Very true.

I am simply saying that the argument “outfitters play a critical role in conservation of wildlife” is in my opinion false. I am only making this statement about outfitters here in Alberta who guide for sheep.

[JustinC]

Really what is the topic here Bighorns or how outfitters have more say than us? As for the bighorn there is no need for this 5 year wait in AB.I dont know to many people that would be able to tell the age of almost any animal on the hoof.So what is it that we want to change to make it better? As for the outfitters I still think that is a whole other topic.But on that note if anything changes it should be for everybody.All nonresidents should come second to our own provinces Hunters.

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by Single Malt

Sorry sheepguide,

I don’t support your argument in regards to the outfitter’s livelihood. It seems that this argument is used often and the resident’s rights and opportunities are restricted while theirs are not. 2% of the Alberta hunting population, that are using our resource to make money, should never dictate to the 98% of resident hunters. (with the influence of APOS this is occuring all to often) Our hunting traditions and the fact that we are Albertans who own this resource should not be placed 2nd to protecting an industry that uses our wildlife for personal profit.

X2. Well said.

There's plenty of employment opportunities in this province, most of which likely pay better than outfitting anyway, so you won't see much sympathy from me.

As for the wildlife management angle, there's nothing that outfitters do that couldn't be done through resident hunters and organizations like the AFGA.

Waxy

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by JustinC

Do you beleive everything you reed? I dont beleive that.

I guess I put a little bit more trust in facts that I read on the APOS website compared to statements like:

Originally Posted by JustinC

I was told this from a person higher up in fish&wildlife.

[Bulletproof]

Originally Posted by Gulo gulo

Sheephunter, thanks for the level headed response.

I just finished talking to my SRD contact and the 5 year rule is definitely on the table. It is proposed mostly for the south and possibly the entire province. The idea is quite controversial within the SRD ranks. Some bios don't like it and some do. I am personally calling the boss man tomorrow to politely voice my opinion. I suggest you serious sheep hunters do the same.
Cheers

Hey guys just a question. If the 5 year rule is being proposed mainly in the south then why would the outfitters be the driving force? Maybe we should stick to the issue and find out more information before going off on a tangent and turning this thread into another outfitter bashing one.

BTW i also agree that nothing has shown me that a 5 year wait will improve hunting.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by Swarovski

I guess I put a little bit more trust in facts that I read on the APOS website compared to statements like:

Good I am glad you can read there BS. I am not getting in to this with you here.If you want to talk more about this start a new thread.I care about ALBERTA'S BIGHORN not outfitters.

[Waxy]

On topic -

I'm not a sheep hunter and likely never will be, but I wouldn't be in favour of a 5 year wait.

While I understand the desire of some to increase trophy opportunities, IMHO, it's elitist. It takes away from those who aren't concerned about "book this and book that" and simply want to get out hunting, and if the stars align for them, bring home a legal ram. I'm guessing that's the silent majority.

In general, I'm opposed to managing for the select few rather than the good of the majority, whether we're talking sheep, whitetails, or walleyes.

That said, I think the idea of designating a couple zones as "trophy" zones and limiting them to a draw, and also preventing those entering the draw in those from buying general tags, has some merit, and would be a workable compromise for those looking for trophy opportunities.

Waxy

[podman]

So if they are only imposing the rule in the south than the South will have some large rams which will bring hunters from all over Alberta to get a large ram which will not help anything because then there is more pressure than before. Makes no sense to me.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by podman

So if they are only imposing the rule in the south than the South will have some large rams which will bring hunters from all over Alberta to get a large ram which will not help anything because then there is more pressure than before. Makes no sense to me.

Ya sure does not. Then we would have all the people heading north instead of south. It will be just like the 3 point rule for mule deer in the 300's when draws started coming out.Nothing left causeing everything to go to draw.(good thing for muledeer)

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by podman

So if they are only imposing the rule in the south than the South will have some large rams which will bring hunters from all over Alberta to get a large ram which will not help anything because then there is more pressure than before. Makes no sense to me.

The 5 yr. wait is for the entire province. Just wait until they make it a 5 yr wait after you harvest Elk. Then you see all the Elk hunters complain as well. I'm not saying it's going to happen but it may!!

[209x50]

WOW!!
I just got information from a hunter that claims one of the driving forces behind the 5 year wait is a southern Alberta chapter of AFGA. If this fellow is correct the way it is worded is specifically aimed at punishing successful bighorn hunters. The motivation is the belief that a few hunters are killing too many sheep and a one year wait isn't long enough. This fellow said he knew nothing about APOS being involved.
If this is true it just goes to prove what I've said all along, we don't need enemies when we've got ourselves.

[Stinky Coyote]

lol, this is going to sound terrible but whats wrong with spreading around a 'trophy species' a little more?....appears thats how they do things with the draw for other species (ie mule deer) etc..........this coming from a guy on year 3 for rams with no luck yet so of course i like the 5 yr wait idea

at least it will slow down a few of the folks i ran into this past season that could care less about holding out for a cranker, legal is all that mattered to them and as soon as they can have another tag they'll hammer another one if they can....it seemed that they were more about numbers on the wall than size on the wall

if the 5 yr wait can fix that then i'm all for it!

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

lol, this is going to sound terrible but whats wrong with spreading around a 'trophy species' a little more?....appears thats how they do things with the draw for other species (ie mule deer) etc..........this coming from a guy on year 3 for rams with no luck yet so of course i like the 5 yr wait idea

at least it will slow down a few of the folks i ran into this past season that could care less about holding out for a cranker, legal is all that mattered to them and as soon as they can have another tag they'll hammer another one if they can....it seemed that they were more about numbers on the wall than size on the wall

Who are you refering to? I dont think that is the case at all.

[Stinky Coyote]

directed at no one on this thread, talking about guys i ran into while sheep hunting this year, pretty sure they weren't doing the internet but you never know, between this one crew(family/friends) i got the impression that with the amount of rams between them that they took the majority of easier rams out of this one area every year...but hey, its legal, i wasn't going to knock their style even though i had a different vision of how i thought it should be in my head

if it pertains to anyone in this thread then purely coincidental, i have an opinion on it and there you go, with these sheep its not going to match everyone elses as everyone knows, not looking to pick a fight with anyone, just giving my rookie opinion....if i had the ram numbers already going in full flight then i might have a different opinion.....i might not

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

no one on this thread, guys i ran into while sheep hunting this year, pretty sure they weren't the internet type, local boys to the region i was hunting, it was about numbers for a whole crew i ran into

ok Sorry to here that. I dont think that is the case with most other sheep hunters. Like with everything, there is always a couple bad applein the group.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by JustinC

ok Sorry to here that. I dont think that is the case with most other sheep hunters. Like with everything, there is always a couple bad applein the group.

i don't know if i'd go so far as to call them bad apples, they do it legally but its a numbers thing for them, just legal will do, and i mean 'just legal' but hey, legal is legal, they were doing nothing wrong....so again, for this 'trophy species' if there is something that can fix that which i see as a problem....without doing too much periferal damage ie; 5 yr wait....then i'll stick my neck out and vote for it, however quite a few ram killers might just want to lop my head off while my neck is out....just my opinion

i think knowing you'd have to wait 5 yrs for another tag you'd be much more selective, possibly even with your first ram, but i'm guessing definitely with your second as the tag in pocket every year might be worth more than a 5 yr break unless its a really good one? just my guess, i would probably kill the first one but a five year wait wouldn't be so easy to forget on the second one standards would go way up so i could get the hawg or keep hunting each year...win win

and for the meat would just put in for as many ewes along the way that i could to also stay out there after them

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

i don't know if i'd go so far as to call them bad apples, they do it legally but its a numbers thing for them, just legal will do, and i mean 'just legal' but hey, legal is legal, they were doing nothing wrong....so again, for this 'trophy species' if there is something that can fix that which i see as a problem....without doing too much periferal damage ie; 5 yr wait....then i'll stick my neck out and vote for it, however quite a few ram killers might just want to lop my head off while my neck is out....just my opinion

i think knowing you'd have to wait 5 yrs for another tag you'd be much more selective, possibly even with your first ram, but i'm guessing definitely with your second as the tag in pocket every year might be worth more than a 5 yr break unless its a really good one? just my guess, i would probably kill the first one but a five year wait wouldn't be so easy to forget on the second one standards would go way up so i could get the hawg or keep hunting each year...win win

and for the meat would just put in for as many ewes along the way that i could to also stay out there after them

I did not mean it like that. I understand what you are saying but 5 years. Is there anything else they can do? I still dont think this is going to help the sheep but the outfitter.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

i don't know if i'd go so far as to call them bad apples, they do it legally but its a numbers thing for them, just legal will do, and i mean 'just legal' but hey, legal is legal, they were doing nothing wrong....so again, for this 'trophy species' if there is something that can fix that which i see as a problem....without doing too much periferal damage ie; 5 yr wait....then i'll stick my neck out and vote for it, however quite a few ram killers might just want to lop my head off while my neck is out....just my opinion

i think knowing you'd have to wait 5 yrs for another tag you'd be much more selective, possibly even with your first ram, but i'm guessing definitely with your second as the tag in pocket every year might be worth more than a 5 yr break unless its a really good one? just my guess, i would probably kill the first one but a five year wait wouldn't be so easy to forget on the second one standards would go way up so i could get the hawg or keep hunting each year...win win

and for the meat would just put in for as many ewes along the way that i could to also stay out there after them

I think I read stinky that it is all about numbers for you as well, just different numbers than the group you were speaking about but numbers none the less. A 5 year wait won't make any difference. If the problem of not enough opportunity lies with the number of rams taken in a year then that number would need to be reduced and that would mean a draw, short and sweet.

[Stinky Coyote]

well i guess i'd prefer 5 yr wait over going to draw if thats how it had to be, at least your going to see tags more frequently and without scoring you could still be out there year after year looking for the right one....i guess i'd rather not see things go on draw but what about this....

first, i can't see a five year wait not having an impact on how many are taken....maybe not in the first five years, their must be an equalization/grace period where things 'settle in to routine' no? so maybe 140 rams still get killed for the first little while but then as guys wait less get killed as time goes on?

or the five year wait just eventually gets all the 140 rams killed every year to a larger/older size?

anyhow, draw would keep you out of the game way more than a five year wait, if they are trying to do something i'd sure be voting for the 5 year...

questions, how many trophy antelope in alberta and whats wait times for those vs how many trophy sheep vs every other year wait if you kill and a tag every year if you don't....i'm serious....anyone know the numbers on that

not that i'm complaining but it does seem odd the ram tag is so easily come by? cripes for some guys they'd kill more rams in their life than ewes even if they were trying their hardest to get as many of possible of each, yet every other species i know of the females get drawn twice as fast

as said, i'd take the 5 year over the draw myself, i can live with current situation too but something about the crews that go for the numbers bothers me for this trophy species, my opinion may not be correct, just kind of a gut feeling on it, seems most respect or live very close to the two ram thing anyhow, shoot legal then hold out for a whopper....seems how the mentality should be, so whatever helps encourage that for me then i'm all for it, draws i'm not, if longer waits works then great, if longer waits don't work then no other option than draws really....just can't see how the wait times won't eventually work to all our favor except the numbers collectors

[crazyfish]

Originally Posted by 209x50

WOW!!
I just got information from a hunter that claims one of the driving forces behind the 5 year wait is a southern Alberta chapter of AFGA. If this fellow is correct the way it is worded is specifically aimed at punishing successful bighorn hunters. The motivation is the belief that a few hunters are killing too many sheep and a one year wait isn't long enough. This fellow said he knew nothing about APOS being involved.
If this is true it just goes to prove what I've said all along, we don't need enemies when we've got ourselves.

I think Raloh and Vicki C have it right..." STOP FIGHTING AMONGST OURSELVES, BAND TOGETHER AND WORK TOGETHER"

WE MAY NOT ALL AGREE ON THE BEST OR APPROPRIATE CHANGES EVERYTIME, BUT WHEN OUR OWN ARE STABBING US IN THE BACK AND ONLY TRYING TO FURTHUR PERSONAL AGENDAS, MAN ARE WE AS A GROUP IN BIG TROUBLE ! tHE ANTIS HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH DIVIDE AND CONQUER !

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by crazyfish

I think Raloh and Vicki C have it right..." STOP FIGHTING AMONGST OURSELVES, BAND TOGETHER AND WORK TOGETHER"

WE MAY NOT ALL AGREE ON THE BEST OR APPROPRIATE CHANGES EVERYTIME, BUT WHEN OUR OWN ARE STABBING US IN THE BACK AND ONLY TRYING TO FURTHUR PERSONAL AGENDAS, MAN ARE WE AS A GROUP IN BIG TROUBLE ! tHE ANTIS HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH DIVIDE AND CONQUER !

x2 well put

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by crazyfish

I think Raloh and Vicki C have it right..." STOP FIGHTING AMONGST OURSELVES, BAND TOGETHER AND WORK TOGETHER"

WE MAY NOT ALL AGREE ON THE BEST OR APPROPRIATE CHANGES EVERYTIME, BUT WHEN OUR OWN ARE STABBING US IN THE BACK AND ONLY TRYING TO FURTHUR PERSONAL AGENDAS, MAN ARE WE AS A GROUP IN BIG TROUBLE ! tHE ANTIS HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH DIVIDE AND CONQUER !

but are we shooting ourselves in the foot? or talking about possible improvements in this thread? maybe theres validity to the afga argument?....if its even true?

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

well i guess i'd prefer 5 yr wait over going to draw if thats how it had to be, at least your going to see tags more frequently and without scoring you could still be out there year after year looking for the right one....i guess i'd rather not see things go on draw but what about this....

first, i can't see a five year wait not having an impact on how many are taken....maybe not in the first five years, their must be an equalization/grace period where things 'settle in to routine' no? so maybe 140 rams still get killed for the first little while but then as guys wait less get killed as time goes on?

or the five year wait just eventually gets all the 140 rams killed every year to a larger/older size?

anyhow, draw would keep you out of the game way more than a five year wait, if they are trying to do something i'd sure be voting for the 5 year...

questions, how many trophy antelope in alberta and whats wait times for those vs how many trophy sheep vs every other year wait if you kill and a tag every year if you don't....i'm serious....anyone know the numbers on that

not that i'm complaining but it does seem odd the ram tag is so easily come by? cripes for some guys they'd kill more rams in their life than ewes even if they were trying their hardest to get as many of possible of each, yet every other species i know of the females get drawn twice as fast

as said, i'd take the 5 year over the draw myself, i can live with current situation too but something about the crews that go for the numbers bothers me for this trophy species, my opinion may not be correct, just kind of a gut feeling on it, seems most respect or live very close to the two ram thing anyhow, shoot legal then hold out for a whopper....seems how the mentality should be, so whatever helps encourage that for me then i'm all for it, draws i'm not, if longer waits works then great, if longer waits don't work then no other option than draws really....just can't see how the wait times won't eventually work to all our favor except the numbers collectors

Stinky you are assuming that the number of sheep hunters stay the same and don't grow. The other factor is for the serious sheep hunters it is like a disease and they are out there every year because they have to be. Anybody they take on along during the 5 years they can't hunt will have some big opportunities and the same amount of sheep will die. Or someone who hasn't shot a sheep is along with a serious hunter and they see a 155 ram, the serious hunter wouldn't kill that ram if he had the tag in his pocket but the fellow with him hasn't killed a sheep and the ram is legal. The ram dies when otherwise it wouldn't have.
The first thing that needs to be settled is do we have a problem? Is 140 sheep a year detrimental to the herd or are we eventing new ways to endanger our sport?

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

but are we shooting ourselves in the foot? or talking about possible improvements in this thread? maybe theres validity to the afga argument?....if its even true?

I have no way of validating fellows phone call. It sickens me to think it may be true.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Anybody they take on along during the 5 years they can't hunt will have some big opportunities and the same amount of sheep will die. Or someone who hasn't shot a sheep is along with a serious hunter and they see a 155 ram, the serious hunter wouldn't kill that ram if he had the tag in his pocket but the fellow with him hasn't killed a sheep and the ram is legal. The ram dies when otherwise it wouldn't have.
The first thing that needs to be settled is do we have a problem? Is 140 sheep a year detrimental to the herd or are we eventing new ways to endanger our sport?

I'm not so sold, agree but don't most hunt more than one guy by himself anyhow, first to see rams calls shot, surely not everyone in the party (even if only two people) have the same standards and be happier to drill the little one anyhow while the other guy keeps holding out? You really think guys would guide 5 different newbies to success in a row while waiting out the five years for their own tag and then immediately fill the tag on the 6th year? Then go five more kills with other people again? Assuming other people as i'm guessing if the same five they will all be holding out for better than squeakers etc.? I dunno, i see your points but still don't see how the wait won't help at least the overall sizes (after grace period) but also spread the rams around a little better.

Well as soon as 5 yr is instated hypothetical, all existing ram killers will be even more selective although majority are anyhow, and the every other year 'meat' ram killers will probably forsure be more selective....a good thing? And the hardcore as far as i can tell still guide people yearly or every couple years anyhow...can't see a big change in numbers of hunters or rams killed there except for first timers only....once a good number of the sheep hunters are tagged up in the first say 5 yrs or so its after that the quality/size goes up? Just seems to me the wait has got to do some good.

How do we know forsure that after things settle in the wait wouldn't decrease rams killed as more hold out for better to make worth the trigger pull? Everyone keeps saying same amount will get killed just by different people....even after grace period so to speak you think this still true? I dunno, i think it would be different. Do the antelope guys waiting every 5 or 6 yrs for trophy keep killing the first legal buck they see when they get that tag again?

[209x50]

Stinky, I'm telling you how it is now with these people having to wait one year between hunting. Most of them don't kill every second year in fact only a couple I know have more than 3 rams, but they are in the mountains every year. Nothing will change other than we will once again have screwed ourselves, who needs enemies? The bios say the herd is doing fine, SRD refuses to point to any study that proves we need this, so why it being entertained?

[7MM Mike]

Stinky,
The only way there is any validity to this concept of a 5 year wait is if your hypothesis that a small group of hunters really are killing a majority of the rams year after year. How many people do you think kill a ram every two years in this province out of the 140 that is the resident harvest? seriously? Do you honestly believe a 5 year wait will cut the harvest by a significant amount? Enough to improve your own odds at getting a legal Ram?
With the logic I'm following in your post, punishing successful hunters would improve the odds for the unsuccessful. I dont see how that will increase quality, or numbers.
With the provincial population deemed healthy overall, Alberta is probably near or at carrying capacity in most sheep range. The only thing thats going to increase opportunity is more and better habitat, and less predation (cougar/wolves) How about lobbying for more controlled burns and less fire suppression - we'd all see increased opportunity not only for sheep, but for elk and mulies as well.