To Crossbow or not to crossbow - That is the question!

[WkndWarrior]

splitting hairs on the mechanical advantage of the two methods is only going to serve to divide us on our shared passion of HUNTING!

I bet there were similar arguments between the long bow archers and the compound equipment when they first came to be...

[elkhunter11]

LOL...interestring to see you're an expert on crossbows now...have you actually ever shot one?

Since when do you need to be an expert on crossbows to read what is printed at the link that has been posted?You posted about watching people hunting big game with both compound bows and crossbows at 100 yards on U-Tube,does one have to be an expert on crossbows or an expert archer to watch those videos?

And yes,I have actually shot a couple of crossbows at the local archery club.Neither were high tech models like the one that were are referring too,but I found it easy to shoot good groups at 40 and 50 yards the first time that I shot one.It was as simple as aiming at the target,and pulling the trigger.It took me a lot longer to be able to shoot decent groups at 40 and 50 yards with a compound bow.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by madatter

By the same token the status quo "is" working for bow hunters.....so why change?
If there is a growing number of people who want to use an xbolt as their hunting tool I cannot understand why there cannot be some type of season for them.....
Just because it's not the "tool" you would use does not make it fair to be excluded completely.......

You won't get the same season. Hunters who use a bow (not bow hunters) invested in something. A season was created (largely out of hunter numbers/success rates). Including xbows will increase hunter numbers/harvest rates and the season will change and/or tags will go on draw). Crossbow hunters have invested NOTHING. Yet they want a return. Sounds like evil socialism to me lol. All a hunter has to do is buy a bow and go hunting. Your claim that the staus quo is working for bow hunters is false. We are not bow hunters...we are hunters who use a bow. We invested in something. Anybody can do likewise. If there is a growing number of people who want to spend billions on national daycare should we do it (answer yes if you're a liberal)? Excluded completely? Wrong again........it's not excluded completely right now.

[LongDraw]

The technology is currently available to buy a crossbow that is a bona fide 100 yard weapon. Scope with a ballistic reticle, bipod, shooting a 440 grain arrow at over 400 fps.

And again, not having to draw and hold with muscular power.

Ive already seen these at a local retailer.

[Unregistered user]

Originally Posted by WkndWarrior

splitting hairs on the mechanical advantage of the two methods is only going to serve to divide us on our shared passion of HUNTING!

I bet there were similar arguments between the long bow archers and the compound equipment when they first came to be...

I like that one

[Unregistered user]

20 years ago you couldn't sport-fish in the B.C. saltchuck with an electric downrigger without medical permission. Debates raged. Everyone has electric Scottys out there now, the take is small compred to the commercial/native catch. crossbows versus roadkill, same thing. Relax let's hunt.

[ghglenn]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

The technology is currently available to buy a crossbow that is a bona fide 100 yard weapon. Scope with a ballistic reticle, bipod, shooting a 440 grain arrow at over 400 fps.

And again, not having to draw and hold with muscular power.

Ive already seen these at a local retailer.

The technology exists to convert your compound to a mechanically held draw, all you do is pull the trigger....like a crossbow. The crossbow you are talking about weighs a ton, and would be impractical to use as a hunting tool. This whole debate has nothing to do with the mechanics of the weapons....

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Since when do you need to be an expert on crossbows to read what is printed at the link that has been posted?.

Guess you believe the WSM hype too? LMAO Stick to what you know elk.

[conservationist]

Already voted yes as I can no longer hunt ethically with my compound due to injuries. (age does not help either!)

(My "reject" letter for a crossbow permit states that "a limb must be missing or permanently paralyzed" and "age related conditions (arthritis) do not qualify". Would have been nice to know that before I wasted a hundred bucks getting medical certification)

The fallacious arguments on the "no" side are sad. The only valid argument the "no" side has is that more species will need to go on draw for the archery season if participation increases, and I understand why that chokes (some of) the bowhunters. But please, stick with that argument and forget all of the bafflegab. The facts are that the advantages/disadvantages of a modern compound versus a crossbow are minimal and both are a long way removed from traditional archery tackle. If the "no" side is going to ride the "advantage" pony, best advocate for traditional longbows, no sights, no let off, no mechanical releases et cetera.

If participation does in fact increase, is that not positve for hunting in general?

And please spare me the argument that I can use a crossbow in rifle season - I don't enjoy sitting in in a stand in subzero temperatures, and I don't like being in bow range of game during rifle reason (no desire to be shot) I love hunting slowly through the bush with a rifle but I am certainly not going to try that with a crossbow. I hope to be able to enjoy early season stand hunting once again with the most ethical spring powered tool for me to use, which is a crossbow.

[madatter]

Originally Posted by ehntr

You won't get the same season. Hunters who use a bow (not bow hunters) invested in something. A season was created (largely out of hunter numbers/success rates). Including xbows will increase hunter numbers/harvest rates and the season will change and/or tags will go on draw). Crossbow hunters have invested NOTHING. Yet they want a return. Sounds like evil socialism to me lol. All a hunter has to do is buy a bow and go hunting. Your claim that the staus quo is working for bow hunters is false. We are not bow hunters...we are hunters who use a bow. We invested in something. Anybody can do likewise. If there is a growing number of people who want to spend billions on national daycare should we do it (answer yes if you're a liberal)? Excluded completely? Wrong again........it's not excluded completely right now.

Maybe all tags should be on a draw....no general tags period!
Personally I would not care....I'm pretty sure I would get a tag for something every year...
What exactly have you invested in?
That makes you special how?
Oh yeah it seems to me that bow hunters...sorry hunters that use a bow are really concerned about losing general tags....wonder why?

Originally Posted by conservationist

Already voted yes as I can no longer hunt ethically with my compound due to injuries. (age does not help either!)

(My "reject" letter for a crossbow permitstates that "a limb must be missing or permanently disabledaralyzed" and "age related conditions (arthritis) do not qualify". Would have been nice to know that before I wasted a hundred bucks getting medical certification)

.

I know several other people that have received the same response. It seems some individual officers will issue without a limb missing but the Wildlife Act is fairly clear.

[GMac]

Well only to be fair with no changes win win for all. After Nov 30. New season cross bow only Dec 1-30. More chances for all

[madatter]

Thank you Conservationist....that was the most honest and truthful thing Ive read all day.

[packhuntr]

Though now moot point, disability permits were the single biggest issue that needed to be sorted out, and some time ago.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by ghglenn

The technology exists to convert your compound to a mechanically held draw, all you do is pull the trigger....like a crossbow. The crossbow you are talking about weighs a ton, and would be impractical to use as a hunting tool. This whole debate has nothing to do with the mechanics of the weapons....

I disagree. It has everything to do with the mechanics of the weapon. Not drawing and holding the crossbow back at full draw is the crux of the debate for me and most avid bowhunters; it is all about the mechanics.

With converting a vertical bow as you describe above it would be illegal to hunt with in Alberta under the current definition, making it crossbow like in its mechanics. Somehow hold your crossbow back with muscular power to release the arrow and voila, you now have a legal bow as per Alberta's definition.

[elkhunter11]

Guess you believe the WSM hype too?

The link has been posted for all to see,you can either believe that the man shot six arrows into less than 2" at 100 yards or you can simply call him a liar.

But if you believe that he is lying,why would you be so eager to accept that the U Tube videos that you referred to are genuine?Other than the fact that you use those videos on U-Tube to support your claims.

[Mistagin]

I've got a simple question for the compound archers: if you are so concerned about the purity of preserving archery (as defined according to the current regs) as a purist kind of hunting technique, why are you not using traditional equipment (bows with one string only, no cables, wheels, pulleys, balance weights, sights, no let off, no fancy drop away arrow rests, no trigger releases, using only arrows with feather fletching, etc.)?

Is it perhaps precisely because of the advantages those technologically enhanced "bows" give you?

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

I've got a simple question for the compound archers: if you are so concerned about the purity of preserving archery (as defined according to the current regs) as a purist kind of hunting technique, why are you not using traditional equipment (bows with one string only, no cables, wheels, pulleys, balance weights, sights, no let off, no fancy drop away arrow rests, no trigger releases, using only arrows with feather fletching, etc.)?

Is it perhaps precisely because of the advantages those technologically enhanced "bows" give you?

Why do you wear shoes,,, and not just walk around on your bare feet.... Of course there is advantages,,, but like the shoes thing,,, wear em, dont wear em, its up to you, but your still walking on/with a pair of feet.

Edit,,, how can we make this any simpler???

[madatter]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Why do you wear shoes,,, and not just walk around on your bare feet.... Of course there is advantages,,, but like the shoes thing,,, wear em, dont wear em, its up to you, but your still walking on/with a pair of feet.

Edit,,, how can we make this any simpler???

What was that word Conservationist used?
Bafflegab?.....I think it fits!

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by madatter

What was that word Conservationist used?
Bafflegab?.....I think it fits!

WOW, I simply cannot believe you are that simple. Possible a little too much simple logic involved here for ya?

[madatter]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

WOW, I simply cannot believe you are that simple. Possible a little too much simple logic involved here for ya?

Oh I do believe there's some "Simple" here all right!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by conservationist

Already voted yes as I can no longer hunt ethically with my compound due to injuries. (age does not help either!)

(My "reject" letter for a crossbow permit states that "a limb must be missing or permanently paralyzed" and "age related conditions (arthritis) do not qualify". Would have been nice to know that before I wasted a hundred bucks getting medical certification)

The fallacious arguments on the "no" side are sad. The only valid argument the "no" side has is that more species will need to go on draw for the archery season if participation increases, and I understand why that chokes (some of) the bowhunters. But please, stick with that argument and forget all of the bafflegab. The facts are that the advantages/disadvantages of a modern compound versus a crossbow are minimal and both are a long way removed from traditional archery tackle. If the "no" side is going to ride the "advantage" pony, best advocate for traditional longbows, no sights, no let off, no mechanical releases et cetera.

If participation does in fact increase, is that not positve for hunting in general?

And please spare me the argument that I can use a crossbow in rifle season - I don't enjoy sitting in in a stand in subzero temperatures, and I don't like being in bow range of game during rifle reason (no desire to be shot) I love hunting slowly through the bush with a rifle but I am certainly not going to try that with a crossbow. I hope to be able to enjoy early season stand hunting once again with the most ethical spring powered tool for me to use, which is a crossbow.

Great post Conservationist. I will be pm'ing you within the next few days regarding using a crossbow due to medical reasons. I just have to look a couple of this things up first.

[packhuntr]

Well, you keep trying to talk yourself into something thats gonna work out for ya here. Its getting awful boring listening to guys trying to convince themselves of something that just is not reality. The only reality in this deal that you have going for ya here Madhatter, is that our govt just might be clueless enough to push this through.

[madatter]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Well, you keep trying to talk yourself into something thats gonna work out for ya here. Its getting awful boring listening to guys trying to convince themselves of something that just is not reality. The only reality in this deal that you have going for ya here Madhatter, is that our govt just might be clueless enough to push this through.

About all your anti crossbow rants have done is convince this non crossbow owning fella to answer yes if and when I get asked.
Thanks for clarifying the situation for me,appreciate the help!
Hopefully see ya next bow season with my new 100 yard killing machine in hand...

[The Bit Runner.]

Originally Posted by conservationist

Already voted yes as I can no longer hunt ethically with my compound due to injuries. (age does not help either!)

(My "reject" letter for a crossbow permit states that "a limb must be missing or permanently paralyzed" and "age related conditions (arthritis) do not qualify". Would have been nice to know that before I wasted a hundred bucks getting medical certification)

The fallacious arguments on the "no" side are sad. The only valid argument the "no" side has is that more species will need to go on draw for the archery season if participation increases, and I understand why that chokes (some of) the bowhunters. But please, stick with that argument and forget all of the bafflegab. The facts are that the advantages/disadvantages of a modern compound versus a crossbow are minimal and both are a long way removed from traditional archery tackle. If the "no" side is going to ride the "advantage" pony, best advocate for traditional longbows, no sights, no let off, no mechanical releases et cetera.

If participation does in fact increase, is that not positve for hunting in general?

And please spare me the argument that I can use a crossbow in rifle season - I don't enjoy sitting in in a stand in subzero temperatures, and I don't like being in bow range of game during rifle reason (no desire to be shot) I love hunting slowly through the bush with a rifle but I am certainly not going to try that with a crossbow. I hope to be able to enjoy early season stand hunting once again with the most ethical spring powered tool for me to use, which is a crossbow.

You are missing the whole picture there Bud, The main reason for"NO" is they are not even close to a compound bow. Check out the picture in my previous post does that thing look like a bow. More like a fricken Gun where it should be used in gun season, & Also too bad for you that you dont like to sit in your stand in sub zero temeratures & dont like being in bow range of game in rifle season. Whats next.... You fricken people kill me.

[packhuntr]

LOL! Well Madatter, ya played the only card ya had buddy, wasnt much of a card but hair on ya I guess. Enjoy your new xbow!

[The Bit Runner.]

Originally Posted by madatter

About all your anti crossbow rants have done is convince this non crossbow owning fella to answer yes if and when I get asked.
Thanks for clarifying the situation for me,appreciate the help!
Hopefully see ya next bow season with my new 100 yard killing machine in hand...

Hope you feel real proud to say i shot a monster deer at a 100 yards with my archery gear in Archery Season.

[HunterDave]

For those of you that missed the link that I posted earlier on this thread here is an exert from the article that was published on http://www.huntersfriend.com/product...rformance.html
Hunter's Friend is a retail seller of both bows and crossbows so I would hope that their facts are not biased towards either product that they sell.

LEGACY AND MISCONCEPTION: In modern day, the crossbow has largely evolved into a weapon for sport and recreation, but it's fearsome medieval heritage has unfortunately given rise to some misconceptions. The most common misconception is that a crossbow has long-range capabilities like a gun. IT DOESN'T! While the crossbow is often shouldered and fired much like a gun, that's where the similarities end. In spite of the cool advances in modern manufacturing and machining, the crossbow is still a primitive weapon. Today, the average crossbow generates roughly 80 ft-lbs of Kinetic Energy. By comparison, a run-of-the-mill .30-30 hunting rifle generates over 1200 ft-lbs of Kinetic Energy. So if you intend to use your crossbow for big-game hunting and you expect it's range and power to be like a modern powder weapon, you will surely be disappointed.

A FAIR COMPARISON: Regarding range and accuracy, the modern crossbow is actually more similar to the modern high-performance compound bow. Take a look at a popular 175# crossbow (Horton Legend HD) vs. a 70# top-of-the-line compound bow (Bowtech Allegiance).

Crossbow
Arrow Mass: 420 Grains
Max Speed: 305fps ENERGY OUTPUT

KE = mv²/450240
KE = (420)(305²)/450240
KE = 39070500/450240

KE = 86.78 ft-lbs.

Compound Bow
Arrow Mass: 350 Grains
Max Speed: 335fps
ENERGY OUTPUT

KE = mv²/450240
KE = (350)(335²)/450240
KE = 39278750/450240

KE = 87.24 ft-lbs. Compound Bow

As you can see, the outputs of these two weapons are similar. Of course, not many compound bows are as fast as the Bowtech Allegiance, and some crossbows are even faster than the Horton Legend HD175. Yet the point remains the same, a crossbow's output is much closer to that of a modern compound bow than it is to any type of gun.

LENGTH OF THE POWERSTROKE: Crossbows generally come in much heavier draw weights (usually 150-185#) than compound bows. So it would be logical to assume that more power-in means more power-out. But wait! If you remember the work=force x distance formula from your High School Physics class, you know that how far is just as important as how hard. Crossbows have a comparatively short powerstroke (the distance the bow's string is drawn back). Most crossbows have only a 10-14" long powerstroke vs. a men's compound bow which typically has a 18-23" long powerstroke. So while the crossbow stores up more energy per-inch of powerstroke (because of the heavier draw weights), the compound bow makes up for it by drawing back a lighter weight, but over a longer distance.

EFFECTIVE HUNTING RANGE: Much like a high-power compound bow, a modern crossbow can easily launch an arrow (bolt) more than 1000 feet. Under the right circumstances, that projectile could still be lethal at the end of that range. Unfortunately, firing a crossbow up into the air isn't a very effective way to hunt, nor could anyone accurately predict where such an arrow would land. So maximum launch distance really has nothing to do with determining your weapon's "effective hunting range". An effective hunting range is the maximum distance that you can reliably use your weapon to accurately, humanely, and ethically harvest big-game. The answer isn't absolute (for any weapon), as shooter skill-level and hunting conditions must be factored-in as well.

YOUR SKILL & ETHICAL STANDARDS: Ultimately, the final answer is up to YOU. A crossbow bolt is surely lethal at 50, 75, perhaps even 100+ yards, but only if you can control it. With a little practice, an average crossbow shooter will be able to place shots accurately out to 30 or 40 yards with little regard for loss of arrow trajectory, changes in ground elevation, or compensation for wind conditions. But if you expand that range to 75 or 100 yards, precision becomes much more difficult, and you'll need extraordinary skills to reliably control your shot-placement. So if you're new to crossbow shooting, you may find that your first season's effective hunting range is only 30 yards, but with repeated practice you may be able to expand that range to 40 or 50 yards (or more). The bottom line is....as a responsible bowhunter, it's up to YOU to decide when to shoot and when not to shoot. You must set your own ethical standards, based of the limitations of your skill and your equipment. It's up to YOU to make good choices in the field, and never risk missing or wounding an animal.

HARVESTING BIG GAME: Hunting with your crossbow comes with many of the same challenges and rewards as hunting with a compound bow. You'll still need to get in close, you'll still need to wait for a clear broadside or quartering-away shot, and you'll need to place your shots precisely behind the shoulder. And like every bowhunter, you'll hope for a clean pass-thru and a good blood-trail for a quick recovery. Your new crossbow will provide you with sufficient power to harvest any North American big-game species. And with good broadhead selection and perhaps a little luck, your new crossbow will surely put meat on the table. But your ultimate success or failure will pivot on your ability to use your weapon in conjunction with your wits.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by madatter

Maybe all tags should be on a draw....no general tags period!
Personally I would not care....I'm pretty sure I would get a tag for something every year...
What exactly have you invested in?
That makes you special how?
Oh yeah it seems to me that bow hunters...sorry hunters that use a bow are really concerned about losing general tags....wonder why?

Apathy (not caring) is not an attribute. Of course you don't care; you don't care to take up a bow, you haven't invested anything, so why support a hunter who has? What is it about "investment" you don't understand? When you invest in something you put something into it in order to get a return. A hunter who uses a bow, invests in that particular form of hunting, and gets a return in the form of additional hunting opportunities spelled out in the regs. You want to take away that return. Why? When all you have to do to get the same return is pick up a stinkin' bow. No, that's not you......you just want to take something away from someone because you don't have it yourself. Me? Your asking what makes me special? Nothing. I'm not special and never indicated I was. You made that up. However, your post is all about "You" ( "I would not care/I'm pretty sure/I would get a tag for something"). That's not the language a team uses.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by The Bit Runner.

Hope you feel real proud to say i shot a monster deer at a 100 yards with my archery gear in Archery Season.

I think that you should do a bit of research. A compound bow is better suited for a 100 yd distance shot. Anyone, whether with a compound bow or a crossbow, would have to be an exceptional archer to do it. Guys that think that they're going to be able to routinely make that kind of shot just because it's a crossbow are in for a rude awakening.