Worldviews

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by guywiththemule

And, a few non sea-faring people(land lubers) might have believed that the earth was flat. The people who made their living on the big water knew better. Probably started as a "boogie-man theory" to keep other people away from their "honey holes" and to stop young men from wanting to go to sea to make their riches. Opps... just used common sense again...

Actually from biblical accounts you will find that the world was circular

[Okotokian]

I've been away for a bit. God's existence proven yet? LOL

Time to wind this thread down.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I've been away for a bit. God's existence proven yet? LOL

Time to wind this thread down.

Ye without faith believeth don't, ye with faith do.

No idea who said that (or maybe I just made it up), but that pretty well sums it up.

Wind it down??

Heck, we haven't even touched the book of Judges yet! lol

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I've been away for a bit. God's existence proven yet? LOL

Time to wind this thread down.

Maybe we should be looking at what is presently taking place about us. Do our present events have Scientific or Spiritual aspects that are sending us a message that we refuse to listen to. Earth quakes, siesmic activity, wars in Lebano, Syria, Yamen...etc. Are these the beginnings of a new world order? Any prophetic works taking place?...etc.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Hebrew 11:6)

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. (Romans 10:7)

[Arachnodisiac]

We're getting to exodus a lot faster than I thought.

(In this thread, not IRL.)

[Okotokian]

To me, a discussion is about either trying to understand the other person, or possibly persuading someone (or being persuaded) to adopt a different view. No possibility of either in this thread.

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by avb3

That would suggest humans were never to die, right, had they not had the fruit?

Correct - if they hadn't sinned against God. And that's just what Jesus accomplished - forgiveness of sins through being our substitute. His death satisfied the penalty. Of course, we still die, but our soul lives on and we look forward to day Jesus returns and receive our 'new' bodies to live forever.

[Tactical Lever]

Advanced medical knowledge. No one could know this other than the Creator in those days. http://www.bibleevidences.com/medical.htm

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by avb3

The Mayan civilization did not survive.... there are lots of Mayans around in Mexico and other central American areas.

From Wikipedia:

The Maya peoples never disappeared, neither at the time of the Classic period decline nor with the arrival of the Spanish conquistadores and the subsequent Spanish colonization of the Americas. Today, the Maya and their descendants form sizable populations throughout the Maya area and maintain a distinctive set of traditions and beliefs that are the result of the merger of pre-Columbian and post-Conquest ideas and cultures. Many Mayan languages continue to be spoken as primary languages today; the Rabinal Achí, a play written in the Achi language, was declared a Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity by UNESCO in 2005.

Agreed, I should have said it that way. None the less, the civilization didn't survive.

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by avb3

That would suggest humans were never to die, right, had they not had the fruit?

It was all about a command, don't eat of the tree...

Yet they did why?

Was it not through the law that they became conscious of sin?

Is this to say without law there is no sin?

So without sin is there no death?

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

To me, a discussion is about either trying to understand the other person, or possibly persuading someone (or being persuaded) to adopt a different view. No possibility of either in this thread.

your right on that nobody is going to change anybody else's mind, my arguments on this subject are well known ,I wouldn't even call myself an athiest I would say im more of an agnostic but that's beside the point, my argument is a defensive one, if you want to practice religion and go to church/temple etc that's fine with me, and if reading the bible makes you a better person that's fine aswell, my problem is when you try and force your beliefs onto me and my life, I am sick of the bullying and moral outrage from the creationists, and the thought that thier beliefs can stop science, especially medical science that could somday effect me or my family and I have had enough of it in my life, this isn't a push to change people minds it's a push back to me anyways.

[Tactical Lever]

Some scientific evidence pointing to a much younger earth than previously thought. I found some secular stuff earlier. I will try to locate it again.

http://www.earthage.org/youngearthev...oung_earth.htm

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by jryley

lol this entire statement....is the biggest pile of you know what ive ever read.

Making claims that abortions could in theory, add to the demise of the human race, lol, is the exact garbage that paints every religious group as a cult. You let your own brains be poisoned by what is frankly, 100% unthruths, and you continue the cycle by spitting an spewing lies to others. It just makes me laugh at the "follower" mentality you prove to show.

Did you happen to notice how I started that post - "let's play the 'what if' game a little further". I guess you missed the "game" part of it.

eastcoast was speculating with some 'what if' scenarios. I just did the same thing back at him. I'm not making a claim, I said "what if" and drew another scenario.

Do you not think the practice of abortion could, in theory, cause damage to the human race?

How am I "spitting and spewing lies to others"?

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

Some scientific evidence pointing to a much younger earth than previously thought. I found some secular stuff earlier. I will try to locate it again.

http://www.earthage.org/youngearthev...oung_earth.htm

if you think the world is 6000 years old there really is no help for you, just stay out of the rest of our way.

[Arachnodisiac]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

Do you not think the practice of abortion could, in theory, cause damage to the human race?

I don't think so. I mean, first of all, there are plenty of us around already.

Secondly, there are animal species that will miscarry when they do not have the resources available to develop the fetus to term, or to properly support it once it is born.

Humans choosing to miscarry because of similar reasons isn't much different, at least in biological, evolutionary terms.

Many women seeing abortions are economically disadvantaged, or otherwise unfit to raise a child, or even see the pregnancy through to term.

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by avb3

Some??? A ton of evangelicals and born agains do.

It just amazes me that otherwise intelligent people relegate themselves to manuscripts that were describing esoteric events in a metaphorical manner, and taking them as literal.

That just fails in so many ways, but I guess if your faith teaches and dictates that is the case, and you have that faith, discussions like this will not change those minds.

I honestly think that if a Christian is looking for spiritual growth, they would get a lot more out of their bible if they looked at spiritual messages, rather then the literal.

That ain't gonna happen any time soon.

So what is the spiritual message of the Noah's ark story?

[Arachnodisiac]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

So what is the spiritual message of the Noah's ark story?

That every species large and small has a place on this earth?

[marlin1]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

Some scientific evidence pointing to a much younger earth than previously thought. I found some secular stuff earlier. I will try to locate it again.

http://www.earthage.org/youngearthev...oung_earth.htm

that was an interesting link

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

your right on that nobody is going to change anybody else's mind, my arguments on this subject are well known ,I wouldn't even call myself an athiest I would say im more of an agnostic but that's beside the point, my argument is a defensive one, if you want to practice religion and go to church/temple etc that's fine with me, and if reading the bible makes you a better person that's fine aswell, my problem is when you try and force your beliefs onto me and my life, I am sick of the bullying and moral outrage from the creationists, and the thought that thier beliefs can stop science, especially medical science that could somday effect me or my family and I have had enough of it in my life, this isn't a push to change people minds it's a push back to me anyways.

Hardly an attack on science. Study of the world around us has made our lives better in almost every facet. No one wants to deny the right to perform medical procedures. But I also believe in the sanctity of human life.

And bullying?! I'm not arguing for my own sake, rather to shed a little light on the truth.

For a number of years Biblical beliefs have been attacked and eroded. Not very many years ago, creation was taught in school as well and later the theory of evolution was taught. This turned into strictly evolution and billions of years turned into "fact". I'm not opposed to non believers having their own theories, however it is a disservice done by the school system and by scientists following the current fad of "billions of years" and passing it as fact. Even among "scientists" that may be tempted to keep an open mind, they are strongly discouraged from doing so, through mentors/peers and grant money that wouldn't come in unless millions or billions of years was involved.

In short, I just wanted to show that whatever your belief, there is strong evidence for creation and thus, God.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

if you think the world is 6000 years old there really is no help for you, just stay out of the rest of our way.

The rest of our way? There's actually a few of us around and the honest open minded secular world can not discount the Word out of hand. Just look at all the scientific journals who never stop printing new stuff. And guess what? Every so often more "new stuff" shows up that present young earth as a stronger possibility than previously thought.

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

if you actually believe a story like noah's arc happened there is no help for you, there is no physical evidence of any arc ever exhisting, it's logistically impossible, the boat would have to be 1000 miles long and would take hundreds of years to build, there is no record of a world widfe flood by anybody but christians, the indians/chinese or mayanas never say anything about a flood in their historical books, plus alot of animals don't have a 40 day life span, it's a story and should be taken as such their is 0 proof of it happening.

eastcoast, you better do a whole lot more reading!

North American aboriginal people talk about a great flood, and many ancient peoples have great flood stories in their traditions too.

Note: the Biblical flood didn't last for just 40 days. The Bible story says it rained for 40 days and nights. Then "The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days."
The Holy Bible : New International Version. electronic ed. Grand Rapids : Zondervan, 1996, c1984, S. Ge 7:24

Then it was still several more months before Noah and his family and all the critters aboard exited from the ark.

The story is told in Genesis chapters 6-8, and note the detail in the story.

BTW, Genesis 9:2-3 is where the Bible gives God's blessings on hunting - that's where God says we can eat critters as well as vegies and fruit (just thought I'd point that out)

[guywiththemule]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

So what is the spiritual message of the Noah's ark story?

Uhh.. don`t p!$$ off your god or he will drown most of you but he will save the animals because they know more than men ? I don`t know...

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

so he is also responsible for cancer and hitler too?

Nope, that's all consequences of sin.

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by marlin1

that was an interesting link

+2

If you want more meat in your stew, consider the writing of this once confessed atheist.

A large portion of his book is on line here:

http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...inningTOC.html

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

Nope, that's all consequences of sin.

your telling me a child 1 year old with terminal cancer got it because of their sins?

I see how it works everything that happens thats good is because god made it so, everything that happens thats bad is because it's gods will, or sin or any other excuse they can find to not blame god for it, can't have it both ways though.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

eastcoast, you better do a whole lot more reading!

North American aboriginal people talk about a great flood, and many ancient peoples have great flood stories in their traditions too.

Note: the Biblical flood didn't last for just 40 days. The Bible story says it rained for 40 days and nights. Then "The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days."
The Holy Bible : New International Version. electronic ed. Grand Rapids : Zondervan, 1996, c1984, S. Ge 7:24

Then it was still several more months before Noah and his family and all the critters aboard exited from the ark.

The story is told in Genesis chapters 6-8, and note the detail in the story.

BTW, Genesis 9:2-3 is where the Bible gives God's blessings on hunting - that's where God says we can eat critters as well as vegies and fruit (just thought I'd point that out)

where did the water come from, and where did it go? and where is this arc?and how did animals from argentina get to the middle east? I hear there is a man who delivers presents to all the children around the world in 1 night, which one is more believable.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

The rest of our way? There's actually a few of us around and the honest open minded secular world can not discount the Word out of hand. Just look at all the scientific journals who never stop printing new stuff. And guess what? Every so often more "new stuff" shows up that present young earth as a stronger possibility than previously thought.

the only science that says the world is 6000 years old is crackpot religious science that had the answer before they started asking the question, the science on the age of the world is settled for 99.9% of the rest of us, wishing something were true doesn't make it true.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

your telling me a child 1 year old with terminal cancer got it because of their sins?

I see how it works everything that happens thats good is because god made it so, everything that happens thats bad is because it's gods will, or sin or any other excuse they can find to not blame god for it, can't have it both ways though.

The 1 yr. old did not get it because of their sin, not just because of the age of innocence but because we lived in a flawed world. We also can not presume to know God's plan. He would not take Mose's ailment away either, as when Moses was weak, He was strong.

And you're right; we can't have it both ways.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

The 1 yr. old did not get it because of their sin, not just because of the age of innocence but because we lived in a flawed world. We also can not presume to know God's plan. He would not take Mose's ailment away either, as when Moses was weak, He was strong.

And you're right; we can't have it both ways.

back to gods plan again. so if god has a plan who are we to pray and ask him to change his plan? are you telling me gods plan is flexible to the whyms of us? and if we kneel down beside our bed and put our hands together and ask him nicely he might change his plan just for us?

like I said everything that happens thats good is because god did it, everything that's bad is not gods fault for whatever reason we make up, pretty convenient if you ask me.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

the only science that says the world is 6000 years old is crackpot religious science that had the answer before they started asking the question, the science on the age of the world is settled for 99.9% of the rest of us, wishing something were true doesn't make it true.

Well you can research it for yourself, I quoted Scientific American in one link. Just google a point and you will actually find some non Christian scientist who will provide evidence for my points. Just because lots believe it doesn't make it true. Isn't that what all the atheists say?