Shot placement question

[elkhunter11]

There won't be any "start throwing a solid".

Just curious,but how do these solids expand on game?

[TreeGuy]

For me, the only constant in the hunting equation should be the performance of the equipment. After that it's all variables.

No two animals I've killed are alike.... no two shots the same.... no two situations identical. Why try and drive a square peg into a round hole?

Anyhooo, carry on.

[KegRiver]

I gotta say equanuck, it all sounds very dicey to me.

But I have zero experience with long range shooting. The closest I ever came to that was an estimated 600 yard shot at a bear. I estimated the holdover well enough, but I was way off with estimated lead. The bear was walking slowly so I aimed at his nose + holdover, the bullet stung his butt.

There are just too many variables for me to ever try it again.
If others feel they have the ability and know how, I don't pretend to know if that is a good choice or not.

But it's definitely not for me.

I have no doubt that should you pull it off, you will be front and centre telling us all about it, with pictures.
If you fail and miss or worse still, wound the animal, I hope you are man enough to tell that story too. As a warning to those who might think it's a good idea.

[HunterDave]

I personally don't think that a 1000m shot is out of the question. If the fella has all of the right tools and practices the shot I don't see a problem with it. I'm good out to 500yds with my $400 Savage and Burris Fullfield II scope so why not? The last time I was at the range there were a couple of military fellas routinely picking off the 800yd gong with a 308. So, add a couple of hundred more yds and you're out to 1000yds. Very doable IMHO.

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Just curious,but how do these solids expand on game?

Haven't yet put the 408 thru meat. The same company that makes them also makes 338 calibre so was thinking maybe try some. Have 250gr & 300gr Sierra MatchKings that will get tried first in the 338-378 Wby.
Will let you know if I find something to use the 408 on.

[elkhunter11]

Haven't yet put the 408 thru meat. The same company that makes them also makes 338 calibre so was thinking maybe try some.

Being that so few people would consider the 408 for hunting game, I was just curious to see if these bullets were actually designed to expand on game, or if they are in fact solids that are not designed to expand.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by equanuck

There won't be any "start throwing a solid". By the time I actually decide to take a shot at a doe at that distance I will have all easily identifiable distances marked and recorded. Targets will have been shot at all distances with all variables recorded. I intend to shoot in as many wind variable conditions as possible so that I can check the bullet drift.

I have a Kestrel weather system and wind speed / directions / barometric pressures / altitude will be put into Sierra Infinity program and again checked by actually shooting.

Spin drift and coreolis effect will be checked as I never had to compensate for these at short distances.

The gun was purchased specifically for longrange shooting with a bullet large enough with high ballistic coefficiency to reduce the effects of drag and retain energy. The idea is to shoot as many bullets to know what the gun & I are capable of. If I can't make it shoot to what I expect, I am not going to shoot at an animal at distance.

There have been lots of animals killed at the distance your mentioned withh cartridges much smaller than the Cheytac and without the use of a kestral.
the main thing to do is to send bullets downrange to find out exactly how that bullet works at those distances you will be shooting at.
Actual POI will be the defining factor.....
Cat

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I personally don't think that a 1000m shot is out of the question. If the fella has all of the right tools and practices the shot I don't see a problem with it. I'm good out to 500yds with my $400 Savage and Burris Fullfield II scope so why not? The last time I was at the range there were a couple of military fellas routinely picking off the 800yd gong with a 308. So, add a couple of hundred more yds and you're out to 1000yds. Very doable IMHO.

Where I have to shoot makes things a lot easier for me. The homemade range that I intend to practice on is also loaded with deer. It's amazing what they get used to; chainsaws, quads, snowmobiles and guns.

Shooting 600yds last fall while running up some loads. Firing 3 shot groups and after the 3rd group I go walking out to check and tag the groups. 3 white tail deer walking towards me from neighbours property line 30m otherside of the fence. Middle of the afternoon and aside from the 600yd shooting I had been firing in @ 100yd for 2 hours with various rifles.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

So how many guys would teach their kid, or any young hunter in general, to shoot for the shoulders vs the boiler room or vice versa?

i have tried to teach my kid exactly where (in my opinion) the ideal place to put a bullet is and why. he can do it fine at the range, but when a deer steps out he seems to get some wierd disease....."something" fever i think its called? anyway the first buck he shot took it just below the eye and out the back of the skull. he was only off about a foot. that made a euro mount out of the question. the second one he shot in the spine. still flinching a little i think. of course he needed a second shot. buck number 3 was a perfect shot.....2 broken shoulders and destroyed vitals. buck 4 would have been the same but he took a step just as the kid was squeezing. the shot hit just back of the shoulder and we tracked that deer for 250 yards. there was no identifiable lungs left and he went that far. fortunately he ran across open stubble to the next patch of bush where he stopped and dropped.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by equanuck

Where I have to shoot makes things a lot easier for me. The homemade range that I intend to practice on is also loaded with deer. It's amazing what they get used to; chainsaws, quads, snowmobiles and guns.

Shooting 600yds last fall while running up some loads. Firing 3 shot groups and after the 3rd group I go walking out to check and tag the groups. 3 white tail deer walking towards me from neighbours property line 30m otherside of the fence. Middle of the afternoon and aside from the 600yd shooting I had been firing in @ 100yd for 2 hours with various rifles.

They do seem to know when hunting season is don't they?

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Being that so few people would consider the 408 for hunting game, I was just curious to see if these bullets were actually designed to expand on game, or if they are in fact solids that are not designed to expand.

I'm sure we could find a few .308 bullets that don't expand so well either but people still buy them.

Calculations show a 180gr .308 coming out the barrel @ 3000fps to be at 2776fps / 3080ft/lbs of energy @ 100yds. Used a BC of .420

The .408 385gr .805 BC @ 3000fps at the barrel shows 2138fps / 3906ft/lbs @ 1000yd

With a well placed shot, I would think I had more than enough bullet whether it expanded or not.

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

i have tried to teach my kid exactly where (in my opinion) the ideal place to put a bullet is and why. he can do it fine at the range, but when a deer steps out he seems to get some wierd disease....."something" fever i think its called? anyway the first buck he shot took it just below the eye and out the back of the skull. he was only off about a foot. that made a euro mount out of the question. the second one he shot in the spine. still flinching a little i think. of course he needed a second shot. buck number 3 was a perfect shot.....2 broken shoulders and destroyed vitals. buck 4 would have been the same but he took a step just as the kid was squeezing. the shot hit just back of the shoulder and we tracked that deer for 250 yards. there was no identifiable lungs left and he went that far. fortunately he ran across open stubble to the next patch of bush where he stopped and dropped.

LOL! My nephew of 14 has fired my Weatherby's and even my 408 out to 5-600yds with good results. Got his 1st buck 2 seasons back and with a non-moving 150 broadside took out both front legs. Just below the brisket and bang on the elbow joints. Give him credit tho that he took the 2nd shot quickly and put it in the vitals.

[elkhunter11]

I'm sure we could find a few .308 bullets that don't expand so well either but people still buy them.

The point is whether or not they are designed to expand, since non expanding bullets are not legal for big game hunting in Alberta, and many other locations.

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

They do seem to know when hunting season is don't they?

Yeah, funny with that! Have had them look at me waiting to go by on the quad or tractor so they could walk across the line. Last winter had tracks up to the door of the shop, right on top of ours. This past fall my brother had a bull moose walk thru the garden to within 30' of the front door while he was smoking a cigarillo outside. Funny thing was that it spotted him, walked off and then came back at some point because his tracks were outside my nephews bedroom window the next morning.

Gotta admit that it does improve hunting odds.

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The point is whether or not they are designed to expand, since non expanding bullets are not legal for big game hunting in Alberta, and many other locations.

Well I know that it doesn't say "non-expanding" bullet on the box or on their website. They're definitely not labelled as armour piercing.

I could butcher a beef with a full frontal brisket shot and let you know.

[elkhunter11]

Well I know that it doesn't say "non-expanding" bullet on the box or on their website. They're definitely not labelled as armour piercing.

I have purchased surplus full metal jacket rounds that weren't labeled "non expanding" or "armour piercing" either, but I wouldn't put my hunting privileges on the line to let a judge decide if they are " non expanding" bullets.

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I have purchased surplus full metal jacket rounds that weren't labeled "non expanding" or "armour piercing" either, but I wouldn't put my hunting privileges on the line to let a judge decide if they are " non expanding" bullets.

Well if I find out from the company that they are in that category then I'll simply use them for the original idea longrange shooting instead of longrange hunting. I intend to shoot the 338-378 Wby to 1000yds anyway. The idea is to do as much shooting as I can at long range.

[big-river]

i think my issue is with the likelihood, or, higher probability of wounding, the Kestral will not tell you everything you need to know out to the range you intend to shoot. Updrafts, downdrafts, thermals etc. It is do-able, certainly, but risky, no matter the technology you throw at it.
Time of flight is what, about a second and a half or about a step and a half for a deer?
Wind movements, misjudgement of range of fifty yards or more etc etc etc. all will result in a miss or a wound.
Isn't it enough to prang a steel plate at a 1000 yards or more, even 2000 yards?
Isn't that proof of skill utilizing technology, wouldn't that be satisfying enough?
By the way, what is the size of steel plate you are using at the 1000 yard range? I bet it is bigger than the 10" kill-zone on the doe you plan on shooting.
Just because it is feasible to do this, does it mean one should?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by big-river

Just because it is feasible to do this, does it mean one should?

No moreso than shooting at running game - near or far, hunting with a smaller calibre than normal, hunting with irons past 100 yards , hunting with a BPCR rifle at 200 yards, or a muzzle loader and PRB past 100 , shooting stuff that you don't eat, or even hunting pheasants with a .410 or taking shots past 25 with a 28, or ducks and geese with a sub gauge gun - did I leave anything out???
Cat

[ram crazy]

[QUOTE=ishootbambi;840919] still flinching a little i think. of course he needed a second shot.

Maybe he needs a gun that don't kick if he is flinching!!!!

[wwbirds]

I come back 2 days later and this burning topic is still burning.

[equanuck]

[QUOTE=ram crazy;841093]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

still flinching a little i think. of course he needed a second shot.

Maybe he needs a gun that don't kick if he is flinching!!!!

If that's regarding my nephew, the gun was a 30-06 BAR. No kick to the old semi, just good old buck fever.

[big-river]

I guess that these things mean a guy should shoot a 1000 yards?
Seems like sound logic and reasoning.

[equanuck]

[QUOTE=big-river;841031]i think my issue is with the likelihood, or, higher probability of wounding, the Kestral will not tell you everything you need to know out to the range you intend to shoot. Updrafts, downdrafts, thermals etc. It is do-able, certainly, but risky, no matter the technology you throw at it.
Time of flight is what, about a second and a half or about a step and a half for a deer?
By the way, what is the size of steel plate you are using at the 1000 yard range? I bet it is bigger than the 10" kill-zone on the doe you plan on shooting.

Kestral is for reference purposes to all information that I have for all of my guns. Not worried about updrafts or others as it's simply across 3 quarters not across a valley.

Time of flight on a stationary animal? Who cares, I won't be shooting at a walking deer. Neighbouring quarter has a dugout that they come to drink from and we've watched them stay in one place for 10 min's.
Steel plate will have a 10" target reference, either painted on or stuck on with the nice shoot-n-see stickers.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by equanuck

Time of flight on a stationary animal? Who cares, I won't be shooting at a walking deer. Neighbouring quarter has a dugout that they come to drink from and we've watched them stay in one place for 10 min's.

How do you propose to ensure that your target stays standing in one place for the length of time you need?

Just asking. I know that I have had many animals move at the moment of trigger release or so close to that there was no way I could have held off on the shot. At the ranges I hunt, that is not usually a problem.

But wouldn't it be a serious problem at 1,000 yards ?
I know that the one time I tried a long, for me, shot, my target moved about six feet in the time from triggering the shot to impact. That was at an estimated 600 yards. There might have been a slight breeze that added to that situation. Never-the-less.
I wonder, just how far could a deer move in the time span from the point of no return to the point of impact. Do you have any idea ?

Just asking.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by big-river

I guess that these things mean a guy should shoot a 1000 yards?
Seems like sound logic and reasoning.

No , not at all, I am not suggesting that everyone start shooting animals at 1,000 yards, what I am explaining here is that every type of huntig we do has a negative side, be it rifle or bow.
Fred Bear at one time shot a deer that completely swapped ends at the sound of his bow and instead hitting it on the left side the arrow entered the right side of the deer.

The hunters that take long range shots have to watch their quarry for an extended period of time , watching the movement pattern of the animal and the shooting condition so they can be certain they did all they could to make a one shot kill when they squeeze the trigger.
I see no difference in this shot than a 400 yard shot on a coyote or a 200 yard shot on a gopher, the strange thing is that many of the people I know that decry the long range hunting of deer think nothing of wounding a coyote or gopher at a comparable range.
Those that can do it , do it well, there are those that cannot, either on a gopher or a deer......
Cat

[big-river]

What I am trying to explain is how much more the variables come into play on these extreme ranges. You can watch an animal all you want but when you have 1.5 to 2 seconds time of flight, you have no idea if it is going to be in the same spot when the projectile arrives. Add in all the other variables that grow exponentially at 1000 yards and you have to ask the question, "Is this a resonable, responsible, ethical thing to do?"

Is this about target shooting or hunting? It sounds more like target shooting to me, using an animal for an experiment.

Sound reasonable to you?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by big-river

What I am trying to explain is how much more the variables come into play on these extreme ranges. You can watch an animal all you want but when you have 1.5 to 2 seconds time of flight, you have no idea if it is going to be in the same spot when the projectile arrives. Add in all the other variables that grow exponentially at 1000 yards and you have to ask the question, "Is this a resonable, responsible, ethical thing to do?"

Is this about target shooting or hunting? It sounds more like target shooting to me, using an animal for an experiment.

Sound reasonable to you?

We all know the variables, and as I tried to point out in my previous post, there are variables in every form of hunting , NOT just lomg range hunting.

This is not about target shooting for me, becaus in target competition I need to put 10 rounds into a target at a designated distance - in my discipline, anyway.
In hunting do not look for a second shot be it close range or longer ranges , my goal is one shot only.
Long range hunting may not be ethical to you, and may be nothing more than shooting , but to the many sportsmen that participate in long range hunting in a serious way, it is anything but folley and nothing but serious .
Cat

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I gotta say equanuck, it all sounds very dicey to me.

But I have zero experience with long range shooting. The closest I ever came to that was an estimated 600 yard shot at a bear. I estimated the holdover well enough, but I was way off with estimated lead. The bear was walking slowly so I aimed at his nose + holdover, the bullet stung his butt.

There are just too many variables for me to ever try it again.
If others feel they have the ability and know how, I don't pretend to know if that is a good choice or not.

But it's definitely not for me.

I have no doubt that should you pull it off, you will be front and centre telling us all about it, with pictures.
If you fail and miss or worse still, wound the animal, I hope you are man enough to tell that story too. As a warning to those who might think it's a good idea.

Just 3 things... Estimated hold over, estimated lead and estimated 600yds??? I have not talked about anything estimated or moving.

30 years ago shooting squirrels at 70yds with my .22 with a 4X scope and deer with my .300 Savage @ 200yds & open sights were what I thought "long shots".

I now have laser range finders, magnum rifles and $2,000 scopes that I shoot sub MOA bullet placement and easily see 10" targets at 1000yds. This and the fact that I intend to mark all the ranges and shoot targets at the same sites that the deer will likely stop at.

Sorry, and "why" were you shooting at a bear at 600yds??? This wasn't because you thought it was dangerous was it? I find it hard to criticize what I "may" do when you write "But I have zero experience with long range shooting. The closest I ever came to that was an estimated 600 yard shot at a bear. "

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

How do you propose to ensure that your target stays standing in one place for the length of time you need?

Just asking. I know that I have had many animals move at the moment of trigger release or so close to that there was no way I could have held off on the shot. At the ranges I hunt, that is not usually a problem.

But wouldn't it be a serious problem at 1,000 yards ?
I know that the one time I tried a long, for me, shot, my target moved about six feet in the time from triggering the shot to impact. That was at an estimated 600 yards. There might have been a slight breeze that added to that situation. Never-the-less.
I wonder, just how far could a deer move in the time span from the point of no return to the point of impact. Do you have any idea ?

Just asking.

I've twice had deer drop flinch from less than 35yds at the shot of an arrow. The 1st flinched down and the arrow went over, the 2nd got hit high as a result of the same flinching reaction.

I would say that your animal was probably already moving. A deer walking at 5mph will move 5.1' at 600yds by the time a good BC 168gr .308 starting @ 3200fps get's to target. 20mph crosswind would push the same bullet 47.9inches. If the wind was going in the opposite direction of the deer you would have 9 FEET of error and that does not take into count shooters error.

Oh, I'm sure someone's going to jump at what I wrote above as examples as to why not. I have stated "stationary" animals. The average magnum bullet takes about 1.5 seconds to reach 1000yds. The average hunter cannot compete with deer for reaction speed and a deer at 100yds will be more aware of a hunter than a deer at 1000yds. The hunter shooting at 1000yds has a whole lot more time to take into consideration the situation and to determine if they will shoot.