The Future of Sheep in Alberta

Bigfeet, it's definitely best to become part of a unified voice like AFGA or Wild Sheep but never underestimate the power of the individual letter. Keep voicing your concerns to the powers that be.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Some info on Ram Mountain...

38sq.kms

30kms from nearest mountain range.

Population high of around 200 but has dropped to around 30 animals.

Only genetic change was in 2005 when they transplanted 6 young rams and 6 ewes from Cadomin to try and get a little diversity. As far as I can find so far no studies have been done to show the affects of this transplant(but im still looking).

Hunting is allowed but has had little or zero effect on population as recorded harvests from the area are low to non existant.

I am not sure that you fully grasp the significance of the Ram Mountain herd. It is specifically because of the isolation and complete accounting of the herd that scientific analysis and conclusions of cause and effect can be made. The data is all there - over 30 years of it. All we need are unbiased people to evaluate it on a broader scope. The most recent information to come from there is on the issue of predation and the tremendous impact that it can have when species targeted predation occurs. Watching that scenario unfold has prompted researchers to look more closely at predation habits in other areas and they have discovered that indeed while populations of predators may have a diverse prey base, individuals are many times target specific, creating an undue localized pressure. This type of information is important for future modeling of predator/prey balances - or imminent importance right now to our caribou and sheep populations.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

You better go back and read the posts again I believe it was pg 29. Just how I understood it anyway. If the genes are there already then it shouldn't matter which are doing they breeding, young or old.

There is no greater evidence of this than our own Mule Deer herd. In the early 80's a 4 pt. Mule buck was virtually non-existent in Alberta. All breeding was being done by yearling and second year bucks because anything with a third point on the antlers was culled from the herd. Genetics for antler growth had zero influence on breeding activity, and in fact was negatively selected for since any early maturing bucks in terms of antler growth would have been culled before they could contribute to the genetic pool and poor antler growth would live on and become dominant bucks. Yet, when the draws were implemented the herd quickly grew to World Class status. This is in direct contrast to the conclusions which Coltman draws on the sheep data - too bad he didn't need to undergo a defense of that paper.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

I am not sure that you fully grasp the significance of the Ram Mountain herd. It is specifically because of the isolation and complete accounting of the herd that scientific analysis and conclusions of cause and effect can be made. The data is all there - over 30 years of it. All we need are unbiased people to evaluate it on a broader scope. The most recent information to come from there is on the issue of predation and the tremendous impact that it can have when species targeted predation occurs. Watching that scenario unfold has prompted researchers to look more closely at predation habits in other areas and they have discovered that indeed while populations of predators may have a diverse prey base, individuals are many times target specific, creating an undue localized pressure. This type of information is important for future modeling of predator/prey balances - or imminent importance right now to our caribou and sheep populations.

I agree 100% on the significance of certain studies of this herd such as predator affects. As this area is one of the main reason FNAWS got involved and contributed to the latest cougar study. But even in these cases there is a difference than most sheep areas. There is very limited escape areas and sheep can very easily targeted here by predators. It helps construct a predator/prey balance but is still site specific. Of coarse these studiest help immensly but "TO ME" arent 100% in relationship to the whole province.

Many on here are discussing the effects of hunting and how the population can or is handleing hunting pressure and harvest. How can we tell this when most or all studies are done on sheep herds that have minimal or no hunting pressure?

[SLH]

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Excuse my ignorance but I was wondering if their are any charities focused on bighorn sheep(like Ducks Unlimited is for ducks)?

This is one of the problems in all of this, I'll never criticise a group for raising money and helping a species but in this case it is worth noting that the Sheep Federation is the group pushing with this agenda. ACA is doing the wildlife surveys and the sheep federation is donating money. Now the SRD biologists are the ones that have to come up with a plan so how is this going to work, what consessions do we have to give up for the money from the federation and the surveys from ACA. This puts the SRD biologists in a real hole with regards to continuity and special interest stake holders.

I hope that the ultimate decision makers have the backbone to make the decisions based on the right thing to do for the sheep and then stay with the priorities as they were outlined in the "Management Plan for Bighorn Sheep in Alberta". If they don't we are all going to get screwed.

[walking buffalo]

Vindalbakken,

[QUOTE][ the conclusions which Coltman draws on the sheep data - too bad he didn't need to undergo a defense of that paper. /QUOTE]

Coltman did try to defend this paper at a NWSGC meeting in 06.
http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...20rebuttal.pdf

[walking buffalo]

Still learning how to work the quote machine.

SLH,

ACA is doing the wildlife surveys and the sheep federation is donating money. Now the SRD biologists are the ones that have to come up with a plan

ACA is VERY active in developing management plans and financing research, with hunting liscense money. The results of their work is passed on to SRD. IMO, they have been active in several projects that include the reduction of hunting opportunities. See my earlier post #317 re.moose/caribou. ACA seems to be yet another conservation body that has an increasing number of individuals in power that are willing to exclude hunting from wildlife conservation/management

[sheepguide]

I understand their concerns and they state it well that there concerns are loosing funding and fueling PETA.
I posted the thread to this paper as I thought it was an interesting read! And I dont retract that. Maybe Peta is trying to use it against hunting. They use many things that are factual and fictional and make it out to work in there favor.

Whether the statments in the paper are fact or fictional, Hunting and funding should come behind the welfare of our sheep populations.

If the theories in the paper are correct then we should maybe deal with them. If they arent then someone should be able to discount them and we have nothing to worry about.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

ACA is VERY active in developing management plans and financing research, with hunting liscense money. The results of their work is passed on to SRD. IMO, they have been active in several projects that include the reduction of hunting opportunities. See my earlier post #317 re.moose/caribou. ACA seems to be yet another conservation body that has an increasing number of individuals in power that are willing to exclude hunting from wildlife conservation/management

I think we are on the same page here, my point is that we have conflicting interests forcing SRD (who will ultimately have to make the decisions) to their way of thinking due in part that SRD does not have the money to be independent and to act on the best interests of the sheep and the hunters of this province. Add into this the money from the federation and their requirements for that money and you can see how SRD biologists are being marginalized.

[walking buffalo]

Hi SG, To be clear, I never felt you were promoting, supporting, or agreeing with any anti-hunting propaganda spin from these sheep studies. Others here played that game with you, and I feel it was wrong, I know where you heart is.

Yes, there are a lot of interest groups getting involved at a deep level with wildlife management and it is becoming difficult to compromise where all are happy. This is exactly why I am spending time here, to be part of a larger voice, perhaps even sharing some new info. for some.

SG's quote,

One thing that would be nice with the Ewe harvest is if some how it could be spread out through out whole zones. As with many zones the ewe harvest is lots of times concentrated in small accessable pockets. This doesnt really affect the zone as a whole.

I Agree 100% with this! From my own experience, and more importantly, from several experieced sheep hunters, there are many easily accessable bands of ewes that have continuously shrunk in size. Every ewe tag that I get, I choose to hunt an area that gets minimal hunting, to spread the harvest out. An option could be to create sub wmu zones for these tags. Spreading out the pressure from accessable herds may even allow more ewe tags to be issued in specific areas.

I Agree 100% with this! From my own experience, and more importantly, from several experieced sheep hunters, there are many easily accessable bands of ewes that have continuously shrunk in size. Every ewe tag that I get, I choose to hunt an area that gets minimal hunting, to spread the harvest out. An option could be to create sub wmu zones for these tags. Spreading out the pressure from accessable herds may even allow more ewe tags to be issued in specific areas.

Many WMUs are already divided into seperate sub WMUs and I think the critical thing with the ewe harvest is not where you kill them but where they would end up in the winter. Sadly, Alberta has minimal winter range and despite ewes being spread out in the summer and fall, the majority end up on a few different slopes in the winter so where you kill them in hunting season often makes no difference at all. What's important is killing them so densities don't get too high on winter range. Summer range really isn't an issue throughout most of Alberta's sheep range, it's the winter range that is the limiting factor.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Many WMUs are already divided into seperate sub WMUs and I think the critical thing with the ewe harvest is not where you kill them but where they would end up in the winter. Sadly, Alberta has minimal winter range and despite ewes being spread out in the summer and fall, the majority end up on a few different slopes in the winter so where you kill them in hunting season often makes no difference at all. What's important is killing them so densities don't get too high on winter range. Summer range really isn't an issue throughout most of Alberta's sheep range, it's the winter range that is the limiting factor.

Finally figured out the quote button! Learn something new some days.

I probably should have written that some WMUs could be even further divided.
However, I also feel that this isn't where SRD should be spending their limited resources right now.

While Predator control can be accomplished in a short time frame, AB Gov. is not likely to lead such a program. But they likely would not deter interest groups such as Alberta Cattle Feeders Association, Trappers Associaton, Outfitters Ass., etc, from running a wolf contol program, ie. Bounties. THis is the directon the B.C. Gov. has followed with their wolf concerns.

We should also push AGFA, ACA, and SRD to expand the contolled burn program.

Ya, when you look at some of the aspen encroachment on winter range it's criminal that nothing is being done. So much more could be done to expand winter range as well.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Many WMUs are already divided into seperate sub WMUs and I think the critical thing with the ewe harvest is not where you kill them but where they would end up in the winter. Sadly, Alberta has minimal winter range and despite ewes being spread out in the summer and fall, the majority end up on a few different slopes in the winter so where you kill them in hunting season often makes no difference at all. What's important is killing them so densities don't get too high on winter range. Summer range really isn't an issue throughout most of Alberta's sheep range, it's the winter range that is the limiting factor.

What do you sheephunter (or anyone else) think is causing sheep in some areas to not use previous wintering areas. Most guys seem to agree to a certain extent that overall populations havent changed alot yet there are places that sheep used to inhabit during winter extensivly that are almost void of sheep in winter now.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

There is no greater evidence of this than our own Mule Deer herd. In the early 80's a 4 pt. Mule buck was virtually non-existent in Alberta. All breeding was being done by yearling and second year bucks because anything with a third point on the antlers was culled from the herd. Genetics for antler growth had zero influence on breeding activity, and in fact was negatively selected for since any early maturing bucks in terms of antler growth would have been culled before they could contribute to the genetic pool and poor antler growth would live on and become dominant bucks. Yet, when the draws were implemented the herd quickly grew to World Class status. This is in direct contrast to the conclusions which Coltman draws on the sheep data - too bad he didn't need to undergo a defense of that paper.

There is only one problem with your theory here, and that is that there aren't as many Sheep being killed because they are harder to kill and if you listen to the biologists they say the population is stable for the Bighorn, so I don't think you can compare Deer to Sheep because anybody can kill a Deer and not everybody can kill a Bighorn!! SG did you find your post yet!

If the government is so interested in making Sheep hunting better they should start with keeping the cattle out of the forestry where the Sheep live, because they wreck alot of the Sheep habitat as well.

[NCC]

If cattle herds are managed properly, they should improve the forage by restricting brush growth and providing forage that isn't mature and un-palateable. If the people responsible for the cattle are unable or unwilling to manage the pasture properly, then the cattle should be removed.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

SG did you find your post yet!

am I missing something?

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by NCC

If cattle herds are managed properly, they should improve the forage by restricting brush growth and providing forage that isn't mature and un-palateable. If the people responsible for the cattle are unable or unwilling to manage the pasture properly, then the cattle should be removed.

You obviously haven't been to the south country to take a look at the damage done in some of the canyons by the cattle.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

am I missing something?

Reread your post on Pg 29. on bighorns on draw thread.

[Rockymtnx]

I agree that cattle can damage a lot of land, but does anyone feel that is a concern north of Highway #1? I know that the areas I frequent, there is ZERO cattle impact on summer or wintering grounds of sheep.
SG in your area west of Caroline and Sundre do you see any sheep areas being damaged by cattle?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Rockymtnx

SG in your area west of Caroline and Sundre do you see any sheep areas being damaged by cattle?

No they dont get into the mountain areas where the sheep are in the areas that I frequent.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Reread your post on Pg 29. on bighorns on draw thread.

The one about ages of 180"+ rams and that guys on here with book sheep should let us know the ages of them?

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

There is only one problem with your theory here, and that is that there aren't as many Sheep being killed because they are harder to kill and if you listen to the biologists they say the population is stable for the Bighorn, so I don't think you can compare Deer to Sheep because anybody can kill a Deer and not everybody can kill a Bighorn!!

I'm not sure I follow you. Since sheep are harder to kill and the kill percentage is lower then Coltman is right that hunter selection will adversely affect the evolution of the herd resulting in smaller horned rams?

[Hagar]

In regards to a predator control program by the government,I think you can for get that.When I was living in the Yukon they had a caribou herd at Finnleson Lake that was being wiped out by wolfs so they did a major wolf kill.The plan worked great and after about 5 years the caribou,moose and wolf populations where back in balance.However when the next herd was in trouble Paul Watson and his cohorts show up and after a couple months of some very active and disruptive protests,including the disruption of the legislature and government buildings thew programs where canceled.They now have to use "more humane" methods to control wolf populations both in the Yukon and Alaska,at great cost to caribou herds through out the North.If there is to be any predator control it will be up to use to do so on our own,as I doubt any government will take that on again.

I also think we should get the cattle out of areas that are winter ranges for sheep ,if not permanently,at lest by Sept.1.so that the grasses that sheep would forage on would have a decent month to recover during a decent growing period.Better forage during winter would make for better sheep.

[209x50]

209,Granted the logistics of such a course would have to be worked out but they would be similar to the present hunters ed.They would be offered prior to the opening of the season and with out prove of passing the course,as with the hunters ed.,you would not be able to purchase a sheep tag.If you can not plan ahead enough for this then to bad!I am not saying that anyone who hunts sheep must have the same values as me ,just hoping to educate hunters on the proper judging and conservation of sheep.And maybe if hunters are shown how passing on younger sheep can help to produce better sheep for all fewer young rams would be taken.I would not expect ever hunter have the values or ethics that I have as everyone is different.You are a great example of that,as it seems you seem to be against ever option and opinion that has been mentioned here and have yet to bring any ideas of your own to the topic.I get thew impression that you are one of those who would shoot any legal animal you can just because it is your right to.I could be wrong about you but that is how you appear to be to me.

I’m amazed at the thought process thinks that anything, no matter how ill conceived or wasteful of money is better than nothing! Hagar you amaze me. You would have to institute fines for people who didn’t take your sheep course otherwise no one would show. A course with information but no legal standing it simply hands out suggestions. And to what end? They walk out the door from your talk, up the nearest mountain and whack the first legal sheep leagally. Please tell me you can see just how crazy and wasteful of taxpayer’s money this is.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I’m amazed at the thought process thinks that anything, no matter how ill conceived or wasteful of money is better than nothing! Hagar you amaze me. You would have to institute fines for people who didn’t take your sheep course otherwise no one would show. A course with information but no legal standing it simply hands out suggestions. And to what end? They walk out the door from your talk, up the nearest mountain and whack the first legal sheep leagally. Please tell me you can see just how crazy and wasteful of taxpayer’s money this is.

Might wanna read the part 209 that says you would have to take the coarse before you can buy a tag... I think that right there would motivate many people to go but thats just my opinion!!

And what tax payers money? Charge enough for the coarse to cover its expenses!

[Vindalbakken]

Have we determined that there is a problem with the number and age structure of the sheep herd to maintain it's viability?

Really, this whole discussion about how to make it tougher to hunt sheep seems to me to be much ado about nothing in the end - there are enough sheep of every age category to go around - aren't there? It's not like 8 year old rams do not exist or the sheep herd is in serious decline.

Now if you want to discuss what to do about shrinking wintering range, increasing human encroachment on wintering range etc. then we are discussing the right topics. Reducing hunter pressure by decreasing availability of the hunt is a myopic fix to a problem that doesn't really exist.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Have we determined that there is a problem with the number and age structure of the sheep herd to maintain it's viability?

Really, this whole discussion about how to make it tougher to hunt sheep seems to me to be much ado about nothing in the end - there are enough sheep of every age category to go around - aren't there? It's not like 8 year old rams do not exist or the sheep herd is in serious decline.

Now if you want to discuss what to do about shrinking wintering range, increasing human encroachment on wintering range etc. then we are discussing the right topics. Reducing hunter pressure by decreasing availability of the hunt is a myopic fix to a problem that doesn't really exist.

So very very true. Arm chair experts decide there is problem and charge out the door with plans to micro manage hunters, rather than game, predators or habitat.

[Hagar]

209 it is so simple I would have though even you could understand.IF YOU HAVE NOT TAKEN THE SHEEP COURSE IT WOULD SHOW UP WHEN YOU GO TO BY A TAG.IF YOU HAVE NOT TAKEN THE COURSE YOU CAN NOT GET A SHEEP TAG!!!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Have we determined that there is a problem with the number and age structure of the sheep herd to maintain it's viability?

Really, this whole discussion about how to make it tougher to hunt sheep seems to me to be much ado about nothing in the end - there are enough sheep of every age category to go around - aren't there? It's not like 8 year old rams do not exist or the sheep herd is in serious decline.

Now if you want to discuss what to do about shrinking wintering range, increasing human encroachment on wintering range etc. then we are discussing the right topics. Reducing hunter pressure by decreasing availability of the hunt is a myopic fix to a problem that doesn't really exist.

For one no one has the numbers that proove that there is or isnt enough 8 yr old rams to go around. A very high number of rams shot are under 8 ( if you are around many sheep killed this is a fact).

Second no one has said the sheep herd is in decline!

Third we have all agreed on the topic of winter range, predators etc. Why keep beating that up?