Five reasons to BAN Spears and Atlatls

[Saltmania]

Originally Posted by antlercarver

I think there has to be some mental problem with a person who wants
to stick a blade into a living animal with their hand. I realize it is similar
to useing a arrow or bullet, except that the hunter is not there doing it by hand. If a pet had to be put down, and someone stabbed it, we would
have that person charged and have a mental evaluation and be restricted
from ever owning a animal ever again.

What the heck? Are you really a hunter? I've read on this topic with mild interest but haven't commented until now.

I don't bow hunt but to me ABA and your position on this issue are astoundingly hypocritical. I find claims of moral superiority pretty hard to swallow coming from bowhunters...and I have zero issues with primitive weapon hunting.

The motive of preemptively curbing/preventing complaints of spearhunting feels more like misdirection tactic. I'd take a wild guess that ABA gets far more complaints about bow hunting in a given year than it's likely to get regarding spear hunting in 20 years.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by jethunter

What anti-hunting group do you belong to - PETA or Greenpeace? What a pile of garbage. Five completely meaningless reasons. Even PETA could do better than this for gawd sake. It has to be a joke, right?

That's easily the dumbest thing I've seen on AO yet, and that's saying something. That's not an opinion, that's just the way it is.

Sorry you feel that way.


Unfortunately Spear and Atlatls will be banned as of April 2015 for these very reasons. UNLESS you and others speak up to those making the decisions.

There appears to be lots for support for keeping Sears/Atlatls legal, but few people are actually willing to take five minutes to make sure they stay legal.


Write these people if you want to help keep Spears and Atlatls legal.
Be sure to ask for a response.


Allen, Jim
Head - Wildlife Management Policy
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development
E-mail: james.allen@gov.ab.ca


Rob Corrigan
Provincial Big Game Specialist Game and Priority Species
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development
E-mail: rob.corrigan@gov.ab.ca



Pat Dunford
Head, Legislative and Advisory Services
Email: Pat.Dunford@gov.ab.ca


Ian Stuart
Alberta Fish and Game association - (Hunting Chair)
Email: mooseridge2@gmail.com


Brent Watson
Alberta Bowhunters Association - President
Email: brent@albertabowhunters.com


SCI Alberta
Peter McMahon – Director
Email sherwoodguides@gmail.com

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Unfortunately Spear and Atlatls will be banned as of April 2015 for these very reasons. UNLESS you and others speak up to those making the decisions.

So, the ABA resolution passed then?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

So, the ABA resolution passed then?

There was no ABA resolution, they skipped that part of the process and the execs went right to the proposal presented to AGMAG (May 2013).

As the ABA did not debate their official position on Spears/Atlatls at the recent general meeting, the ABA execs will likely continue to lobby for these tools to be made illegal. This is why I keep asking for the ABA exec. to state their current position on Spears/Atlatls. I wonder why they won't publically state whether or not they will continue to oppose spears/atlatls for hunting big game?



Here is where is it getting even more complicated now, and why we must contact all the representatives to state your opinion.


It appears that the ABA Proposal to Ban Spears/Atlatls has been absorbed by a new proposal Discussion by F&W to redefine Legal Weapons for hunting (Jan 2014 AGMAG).



The new Issue for Discussion proposal by F&W is to completely rewrite the Legal Weapon definition within the Wildlife Act to specifically state which weapons are legal for hunting. Anything not on the list will be illegal. The proposed list will include Archery, Crossbows, and firearms (centre fire, shotgun and muzzleloaders). As proposed, Spears and Atlatls will be illegal by omission. In addition, practices such as hunting grouse with a slingshot or sub 500 fps pellet guns will also become illegal. Finishing off that deer with a knife will be illegal unless an exemption is somehow defined.



Take note of part 3 of the Discussion proposal. Despite what F&W are saying, no other AGMAG groups supported the ABA Proposal, AFGA and SCI stated that they opposed it. AFGA and SCI stated at the Jan 2014 AGMAG meeing that they do not see a need nor want to open a discussion on redefining legal weapons.

Jan 2014 AGMAG Minutes
New issues to initiate for consultation
2. Limit weapons allowed to hunt big game
• Rather than list prohibited weapons, list those that are permitted.
• Members don’t want change… there is no issue – AFGA
• Our members also don’t want definition – SCI
• This regulation change can help defend against the unknown, e.g. drones, remote hunting.. etc. etc. – ESRD



How will defining weapons regulate drones? Drones would have to be regulated in another fashion as they are not "Weapons".

The "Unknown". This has been exemplified with the F&W and ABA verbalized concern of "Pursuit Hunting". Cause there is such a big problem with hunters running down elk on foot. And again, defining weapons will not regulate "pursuit hunting", this would have to be done in another way within the Wildlife Act. How? Don't ask me. I guess there will be a new regulation that you cannot follow, "pursue" wildlife when hunting.


Maybe they will simply make the bolded part of (o) (ii) of the wildlife act a criminal offense?

(o) “hunt” means, subject to subsection (6), with reference to a subject animal,

(i) shoot at, harass or worry,

(ii) chase, pursue, follow after or on the trail of, search for, flush, stalk or lie in wait for,

(iii) capture or wilfully injure or kill,

(iv) attempt to capture, injure or kill, or

(v) assist another person to hunt in a manner specified in subclause (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) while that other person is so hunting;





The can of worms is now wide open.




F&W Issue for Discussion - Limit the types of weapons allowed during an Open Hunting Season. (Jan 2014 AGMAG)

[Lefty-Canuck]

Perhaps the ABA was asked to draft a proposal to present to AGMAG by SRD?

Sounds like SRD was in the process of defining legal hunting weapons anyhow.

ABA does not act alone they are a cog in the wheel of AGMAG so the user groups who compose AGMAG still have a say to where this proposal goes do they not?

The ABA does not have the means to pass this alone.

LC

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Perhaps the ABA was asked to draft a proposal to present to AGMAG by SRD?

Sounds like SRD was in the process of defining legal hunting weapons anyhow.

ABA does not act alone they are a cog in the wheel of AGMAG so the user groups who compose AGMAG still have a say to where this proposal goes do they not?

The ABA does not have the means to pass this alone.

LC

Perhaps. Now why would they do that?

Maybe. Either way the ABA started and is still championing the drive to ban spears and atlatls.

Yes. No other hunting group supports the ABA or F&W position.

True. But F&W can.

[nekred]

You know walking buffalo... where in documentation has it stated that ABA is trying to ban atlatls? Present some Up to date RATIFIED Meeting minutes.

ABA drafted a proposal to identify legal hunting equipment for Alberta....

Were you at ABA AGM?

There was a fellow there who made the comment that the ABA exec was taking a stance without polling its members.... In a club/association where there is representation that is allowed and within the system a different executive can be voted in by a majority

If the exec had to check with members on every single issue it would be tied up in bureacracy... that is why there is an AGM to determine direction of exec, and why there are elections at AGM.

You seem to be acting upon hearsay and undocumented OPINIONS of what took place at the meetings...

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by nekred

You know walking buffalo... where in documentation has it stated that ABA is trying to ban atlatls? Present some Up to date RATIFIED Meeting minutes.

ABA drafted a proposal to identify legal hunting equipment for Alberta....

Were you at ABA AGM?

There was a fellow there who made the comment that the ABA exec was taking a stance without polling its members.... In a club/association where there is representation that is allowed and within the system a different executive can be voted in by a majority

If the exec had to check with members on every single issue it would be tied up in bureacracy... that is why there is an AGM to determine direction of exec, and why there are elections at AGM.

You seem to be acting upon hearsay and undocumented OPINIONS of what took place at the meetings...

Sure, for the third or fourth time in this thread. The ABA Proposal document was sent to me by Brent Watson last Dec. when he was telling me all about his plan to ban spears and atlatls.



"May 29 2013 AGMAG MEETING
1:50 Advance regulation change proposals for 2015

• ABA – Make use of spears and atlatls illegal for hunting big game in AB.
o Full support from AGMAG to define legal big game hunting equipment."


*My note- "Full support" means that the other groups accepted that F&W has the authority to re-define legal weapons. This is not an endorsement of the ABA resolution. There has never been another member of AGMAG offering support of the ABA proposal.

[nekred]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Sure, for the third or fourth time in this thread. The aba proposal document was sent to me by brent watson last dec. When he was telling me all about his plan to ban spears and atlatls.



"may 29 2013 agmag meeting
1:50 advance regulation change proposals for 2015

• aba – make use of spears and atlatls illegal for hunting big game in ab.
O full support from agmag to define legal big game hunting equipment."


*my note- "full support" means that the other groups accepted that f&w has the authority to re-define legal weapons. This is not an endorsement of the aba resolution. There has never been another member of agmag offering support of the aba proposal.

maybe go check the ratified minutes!......This was corrected and amended to the best of mny knowlege because of wordplay... things we taken out of context and was not part of the actual motion....

I asked you a direct question in my last post and you have not answered... WERE YOU AT 2014 ABA AGM?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by nekred

maybe go check the ratified minutes!......

You might be the only one not to notice that you have not provided a single document to dispute my information.

Ante' up or your out.

[nekred]

Surely you can answer whether or not you were at 2014 ABA AGM.

If you were then the documents/information were available to you if not then I am sure arrangements can be made to get you the most up to date documentation.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by nekred

Surely you can answer whether or not you were at 2014 ABA AGM.

If you were then the documents/information were available to you if not then I am sure arrangements can be made to get you the most up to date documentation.

He was not at either. He GOOGLED IT.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by nekred

maybe go check the ratified minutes!......This was corrected and amended to the best of mny knowlege because of wordplay... things we taken out of context and was not part of the actual motion....

I asked you a direct question in my last post and you have not answered... WERE YOU AT 2014 ABA AGM?

What are these "ratified minutes" and where are they?

Seems the ABA is back pedaling, Get a proposed regulation change out their and then what ever you are trying to say?

Either way the ABA started this whole mess by bringing up the issue when there was no issue except what people might think if it becomes an issue.

[Pudelpointer]

Geez WB, can't you read?!?!

The ABA never made a proposal to ban spears and ;

Brent Watson never talked to you on the phone;

Brent Watson never told you what happened;

Brent Watson never sent you (or others) an explanation of their push to ban them;

The AGMAG minutes are wrong when it says ABA wants to ban spears and Atlatls;

The AGMAG minutes are right when it says all groups support defining legal weapons;

The ABA will neither confirm nor deny that the executive that is to carry forth Alberta Atlatl's information brief to AGMAG will/won't continue to lobby for banning spears and Atlatls.... Oh wait, they never lobbied for that in the first place.

The ABA cleared all this up at their meeting. History CAN be rewritten!


This is getting sad.

[greylynx]

Documentation Please.

What is the problem?

or else, something smells.

[Pudelpointer]

Oh something stinks alright Greylynx.

[walking buffalo]

Since the ABA is trying to mislead the public with the history of how this ABA Proposal got to where it is today, let's review this Jan. 03 2014 post by ABA Executive Secretary Cole O'Neill.

Originally Posted by NBFK

When did the ABA support the mule deer draw? We had a committee together to bring factual information forward from hunters to try and fight it. From my understanding at the first agmag meeting Srd had their minds made up before they even sat down. Unless you are talking about making an archery only draw? Yes after bowhunters lost general opportunities we would like a kick at the cat.

Yes I am an executive member.

Yes I support this proposal 100% why would I want to bludgeon an animal to death with a pointy stick.

I would have to double check emails but I'm sure these proposals either go out in newsletters or emailed through the members list.

So I commented stating my opinion and you saw my neck and now your going for the finishing blow?

Cole O'Neill, the ABA Secretary, confirmed that he is 100% in favour of the ABA Proposal.
A proposal he supported on Jan. 3, 2014, that somehow now never existed.



Cole was sure that ABA proposals are presented to the membership by newsletter or email. Yet the ABA cannot produce any evidence that they ever notified the membership of this ABA Spear Ban proposal that he is 100% in favor of.

How can that be? Surely the ABA Secretary, who's duties are to record and disseminate this information (by ABA Constitution) would have the records.




So here we are now and the ABA is backpedaling, swerving and swinging, trying their hardest to convince people that the sky is any color but blue. Yet despite all the attempts, the ABA will not publically state their current position regarding Spears and Atlatls.


And I thought Redford was good at avoiding telling us what is really going on.




This is such a simple question.

What is the ABA's current position regarding the use of Spears and Atlatls for hunting?

Does the ABA Executive now support the use of spears/atlatls for hunting, or will the ABA executive continue to seek the use of these tools to be banned?

Continued silence and avoidance in answering the questions can only mean one thing....

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by jethunter

What anti-hunting group do you belong to - PETA or Greenpeace? What a pile of garbage. Five completely meaningless reasons. Even PETA could do better than this for gawd sake. It has to be a joke, right?

That's easily the dumbest thing I've seen on AO yet, and that's saying something. That's not an opinion, that's just the way it is.

Buddy... did you read the whole thread?

All WB did was give everyone a heads up.
He didn't start the fire...he isn't fueling it... he is warning others that there is trouble afoot.

[dmcbride]

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...IBcZ6WGhjTCVwg

[walking buffalo]

Why does the ABA executive continue to refuse to answer this question?


What is the ABA's current position regarding the use of Spears and Atlatls for hunting?


Does the ABA Executive now support the use of spears/atlatls for hunting, or will the ABA executive continue to seek the use of these tools to be banned?

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Why does the ABA executive continue to refuse to answer this question?


What is the ABA's current position regarding the use of Spears and Atlatls for hunting?


Does the ABA Executive now support the use of spears/atlatls for hunting, or will the ABA executive continue to seek the use of these tools to be banned?

It must be summer WB... all I hear are crickets.



The last "official" response from ABA (the information brief in which they decided that their ban proposal was misconstrued, and they were only looking to start a discussion) states that Atlatls and spears have "high wounding rates" and there use is "not defendable".

Their position is clear.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

It must be summer WB... all I hear are crickets.



The last "official" response from ABA (the information brief in which they decided that their ban proposal was misconstrued, and they were only looking to start a discussion) states that Atlatls and spears have "high wounding rates" and there use is "not defendable".

Their position is clear.

Is there any documentation to back that statement in red besides a few youtube video's? Cause I can't find any. I can find 100's of bow hunting video's. This whole thing still blows my mind how a bow hunting organization would even open this can of worms when the same arguments that they are using could also be used against them. Sad day for all hunters.

[albertaatlatl]

The only documentation is what the ABA wrote in their redirected proposal. There is NO documentation AT ALL that says anything negative of spear hunters during hunting season. NO poaching, NO wounded animals, NO tresspassing, NO anything!! We have a PERFECTLY CLEAN record! A sad day for hunters for sure, when a small defenseless group of hunters, who are members for the most part of the larger group, are attacked and have to stand against the larger!! Bullying at it's finest! Bigotted and self centred as well! I for one, am a very angry hunter! I'm very disappointed in the heads of larger groups who knew we were around, used our tools, and decided it's not for them, so it MUST NOT BE FOR ANYONE!! Word comes to mind...HIPPOCRISY!!!
AA

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Is there any documentation to back that statement in red besides a few youtube video's? Cause I can't find any. I can find 100's of bow hunting video's. This whole thing still blows my mind how a bow hunting organization would even open this can of worms when the same arguments that they are using could also be used against them. Sad day for all hunters.

Just to be clear.... the ABA is now saying that they are not making ANY arguements... well, except what they have in their discussion paper about how they are not making arguments, or in the proposal they DIDN'T make... wait, what?

At this point I couldn't care less what they publicly state is their position; their true intent is blatantly obvious to anyone who has seen (or more accurately, taken the time to read) the information the ABA has provided.

[bearbait]

OK... The aba did draft that document and has adjusted it to define legal weapons. yes im apposed to any banning of hunting!

This whole cross bow in archery season thing is a sore spot with me though I have to admit.
I do belive that cross bows do not belong in archery season but in there own season.

so what I think should be done there is as follows..
1- in zones that don't open until nov 1st cross bow season should be run from oct 15-31
2-in zones that open sept 17 crossbow season runs sept 17 sept to sept 30th
This way its a fair deal all around!
in my opinon a crossbow and a compound bow are way to different to be in same season. it takes time to learn how to shoot a compound and be proficient with it where as a cross bow is sighted in like a rifle and anyone can shoot it and be accurate.
archery guys are aloted 15% tag share to rifles 85%. that's why draws are coming in so often as the bow hunters numbers rise.
anyway I could go on forever on this...

DONT BAN ANY FORM OF HUNTING!! WE ARE HUNTERS NOT ANTIS AND I HOPE BRENT AND THE ABA EXECUTIVES GET THAT. DEFINING A REGULATION ON SPEAR SIZE IS A DIFFERENT MATTER!
Rob

[leeaspell]

Just use the crossbow in general season, why do you need any special season for it.

[Pudelpointer]

Is this a calculated derail? Nothing gets bowhunter's attention quicker than a good crossbow poo-flinger.

[3blade]

He just started his own thread about it, probably got warned about the "derail-get banned" rule. So lets leave that out of this thread.

[MilitaryHuntingandFishing]

so did this pass? Im still waiting on what happened here. Not in CA but it will effect the USA if they make a decision like this. We want to help protect our northern Neighbors!

[MilitaryHuntingandFishing]

something interesting

http://www.bowhunters.ca/uploads/ABA...apon_brief.pdf