Wild Horses: "Someones Garbage that should be properly disposed of." TJ Schwanky

[sheepguide]

[QUOTE=duffy4;867559]Sorry I thought you said there were "zero feral horses" in those areas.

Oh wait a minute, you did say there was "zero". A small over sight. Then how many other small over sights have slipped through on your other posts?[/QUOTE


The upper reaches of Brown Creek, Blackstone, Wapiapi, Opabin, and Chungo do not have zero feral horses just as ive stated. Maybe you should fly up and take some pics of the areas that these horses have wintered. Its easy to show as there are piles of **** all over. Pretty tough to hide but I guarentee you will have an even tougher time finding them becasue they arent there and do not winter there!
Ok Duffy how many horses on Scalp Creek, South Ram up stream of the Hummingbird, Head of the North Ram, Clearwater upstream of Timber Creek, Forbiden Creek, Dog rib etc. Areas that had some large numbers of Elk. Elk that migrated to winter in these regions from the National Parks which guess what also have had elk numbers drop and guess what which also do not have horses.

So if you wanna say I have slipped up proove that the issues that are happening in areas with horses arent happening in areas without because if you try that it will make you look like a complete fool just because you wanna do your best to discredit me. Have you traveled the elk grounds in these areas or just flown over? Have you ridden the trail loop along the range through the Gap up George creek past Neils camp up past the big lick through the Grave, Elk Valley, past the Castle then overpast the Oil lease towards the Monds licks up the old cutline to the old tarp roof cabin then up the horse trail over to the Opabin the over and down the Blackstone because you would see that the horse areas are not the reaches that most of the elk hang in. And if you travelled it you would also have seen that the elk and the horses fared well together on the lower Blackstone untill them wolves moved in.
So keep trying Duffy!

SG

[duffy4]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Are you avoiding my question to you just as everyone else on this thread has FCLighting.

Dont comment that my comments are just emotions if you cant proove me wrong, come on im sure you can come up with an explanation!


If you missed it,
Am I wrong? Are populations in the National parks, YaHa Tinda, Panther, Upper Red Deer, Scalp creek, Forbiden Creek, Ranger Creek, South Ram, Hummingbird, Wapiapi, Upper Blackstone, Chungo and many more areas that have zero feral horses not having the exact population and habitat issues as all areas that have feral horses? You try and discredit what I say by saying its on an emotional level. Well tell me since you seem to know better, am I wrong in what I just stated?
Im either right or im wrong. So please tell me!

SG

Looks to me like you said there are ZERO feral horses in Wapiabi, Upper Blackstone and Chungo. Am I wrong?

Then when I pointed out I had seen some in these areas you said yes there were some there. Am I wrong?

Yep there are a few horses in them areas. But they are not large herds and tend to hang on the front range. They stay more in Smith Creek and hang in a couple Medows along George Creek.

Now you are ...well bent out of shape about something. Am I wrong?

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

because you would see that the horse areas are not the reaches that most of the elk hang in.

What if that is because the horse outcompete the elk for space and push the elk to less favored ground? Is that a possibility?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by duffy4

Looks to me like you said there are ZERO feral horses in Wapiabi, Upper Blackstone and Chungo. Am I wrong?

Then when I pointed out I had seen some in these areas you said yes there were some there. Am I wrong?

Yep there are a few horses in them areas. But they are not large herds and tend to hang on the front range. They stay more in Smith Creek and hang in a couple Medows along George Creek.

Now you are ...well bent out of shape about something. Am I wrong?

Nope your grasping at straws, there are horses on the lower reaches like I said the upper reaches have no horses. I was refering to the Blackstone, Wapiapi and Chungo in general have horses because that is how you refered to them. And yes they do. But do you class the whole river system because one area has horses? The South ram in general can be said to have lots of feral horses! But if you break it down only the lower reaches and alot of it does not!

Whats your obsesion for wanting to discredit? You obviously have no proof one way or the other for reasoning so you try and manipulate how things are worded so you look good or what.

SG

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

What if that is because the horse outcompete the elk for space and push the elk to less favored ground? Is that a possibility?

Maybe go have a look at the area in question before you talk as you havent a clue.

The elk area in this region hasnt changed from the time people started hunting it, it is still the same today.

Again what pushed the Elk out in the areas with no horses? You want to dicredit me so bad. Do it then. What eliminated or pushed the elk off the ranges that have absolutly zero feral horses? Ill put money that it was the same thing as the areas that have horse as it all happened during the exact same time period.

Come on you want me to back what I say and proove everything, well why dont you proove that horses caused these issues.

SG

[duffy4]

So sorry I didn't realize in you first statement that you had said "upper Wapiabi,upper Blackstone and upper Chungo"

Oh wait... you didn't say it like that till some time later. (though you did say Upper Blackstone. whatever that means)

I am not trying to "discredit you". But if you keep ranting on this subject the way you have been, you are bound to do so yourself.


You like to see the feral hoses out there for some reason that I am not too clear on.

I don't like to see them out there because they are "feral" "exotic" "invasive" "non-native" critters.

[Rockymtnx]

Mark007, if my memory serves me correct you are a resident of Saskatchewan. Just curious as to what your encounters and observations have been with the feral horses in Alberta's mountainous areas?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by duffy4

So sorry I didn't realize in you first statement that you had said "upper Wapiabi,upper Blackstone and upper Chungo"

Oh wait... you didn't say it like that till some time later. (though you did say Upper Blackstone. whatever that means)

I am not trying to "discredit you". But if you keep ranting on this subject the way you have been, you are bound to do so yourself.


You like to see the feral hoses out there for some reason that I am not too clear on.

I don't like to see them out there because they are "feral" "exotic" "invasive" "non-native" critters.

Agreed, you dont like them for your personal reasons and I dont beleive that eradication is necassary! And I never onced argued against your opinion for not liking them, simply stated that the reasons suggested are weak for elimination as they are happening in areas with no horses also!

As for upper and lower in a river system well do you class the stretch of the North Sask. that flows through Rocky the same as where it starts?
The start areas of most river systems are refered to as Headwaters or Upper Reaches by many, hence my use of Upper BlackStone and Upper Clearwater.
But I think you already new that, just was another wasted comment as many of the F.L.U.Z are reffered to this way also. Maybe look it up with SRD !

SG

[mark007]

Originally Posted by Rockymtnx

Mark007, if my memory serves me correct you are a resident of Saskatchewan. Just curious as to what your encounters and observations have been with the feral horses in Alberta's mountainous areas?

years ago lived in Calgary spent a lot of time in foothills and mountains then my old man decided to move! i remember seeing wild horses and thinking that they were majestic! but aside from that my end of the debate still stands.....not 1 person has proved that feral horses cause loss of hunting other species!

still no proof of destruction!

[alpineguy]

Anybody know what the record on the AO forum is for most posts in the shortest time span? This one has to be close!!!

[st99]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

You may wanna look up your dates again!!

they're not my dates, they're SRD dates...

[yukon300RUM]

As a non resident of AB, i might not have much of an insight. However, the areas that i hunt with friends each fall (west of rocky mtn house) are inhabited by feral horses (how many, i don't know), and i see them quite frequently. One **** off is that if your in a blind on a cutline and a deer steps out beyond a group of horses, you don't have a shot!

In all seriousness though, they should be managed. eradicated? eeeeehhh. Walking a dangerous line there. It's probably too late to do that anyways, they've been there for years and alot of people like seeing them, so eradication probably isn't an option. Controlling them should be for sure.

Grazing species compete with eachother for forage all the time, and the horses do add pressure. How much? Who knows, but i'm sure it's measurable. There are examples of non native grazers using up natural habitat and having negative impacts on wildlife all over the world, this is not news. Someone just has to go do it (the measuring, not the eradicating). We have a number of horses that are escapees living wild up here in YK, and they do push the elk around in winter especially, i've seen this first hand. They are a big, strong animal and they seem to be unpopular with local predators, at least up here...There is a place for heratige and history, but does it make sense to have it running around in direct competition with wildlife?

If there is a predator problem as well, then horse control and predator control should go hand in hand, as they would both have a measurable impact on native ungulates, etc. Wolf culls work, for sure. So does sterilization. I can't get behind predator eradication though, thats not what is needed, but predator control is. Theres lots of guys that feel every wolf should be shot, but thats an emotional response as well. Management is the key. Perhaps AB should look at that, we have had successful programs for both cull and sterilization up here in recovering caribou populations in the past.

In the end, i personally don't think horses belong in the wild in North America, anywhere. At this point, however, i don't think we have a choice. The only way to go is with sound management practice, backed by some form of scientific basis. Someone has to go out, find out how many horses there are out there now and in what areas, find out their mortality rates, breeding success, etc and monitor if they are targeted by predators. At the same time, they need to run a study on the native herbivores and see how they are doing in areas with high horse numbers vs low. Find out predation in those regions, both numbers and success. Then they would have a baseline to make a management choice regarding horse and predator numbers.

Emotional responses are human nature, espeically when it comes to certain animal types. No one in Australia is crying over the toad eradication they have going there, cause the toad is an ugly animal that no one likes that is killing off lots of native species. Not so with horses... We are attached to things and react accordingly. Human beings can rarely take emotion out of the decisional balance, because they mean too much to us. And believe it or not, people's emotions and attachments are valid and need to be treated with some respect. Science needs to solve this issue, but it still needs to leave room for emotion. The horses need to be controlled, just like anything else, and because they are non native, then they should have a set number in mind to keep the population small and in areas that they are not affecting wild populations negatively. That way, they are not a nuisance and we can still enjoy seeing them when we're bored out of our minds in a blind!
my 2 cents..... good luck with this one.

[st99]

The battle is lost anyway, the day you want to protect a feral species you should also protect a native one. Alberta horse lovers are just a subspecies of anti or just a not fully grown peta members. There emotion is exactly the same as the one from antis. It's sad to see that half of our group is giving up to the other side.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by st99

The battle is lost anyway, the day you want to protect a feral species you should also protect a native one. Alberta horse lovers are just a subspecies of anti or just a not fully grown peta members. There emotion is exactly the same as the one from antis. It's sad to see that half of our group is giving up to the other side.

So you wanna step in the ring and refer to me and every guy on here that doesnt think horses need to be completely removed as an anti or a peta member!!
It would be in your best intrest to back that statment up a little. You have no idea who you are actually talking too.
Did any of us insult you? Cause trust me I can if you wanna get into that!

But you know what if you have ran out of any logical talk in this thread and have found yourself in a discussion you know nothing about then I guess its easier to sling mud as we have seen that recently on this forum.

Good to see your true side pal.

SG

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by st99

they're not my dates, they're SRD dates...

Here is one piece of literature with a few dates. Im sure some whith better research skills could show more.


http://dspace.ucalgary.ca/bitstream/.../1/Kincaid.pdf

SG

[guywiththemule]

Originally Posted by st99

The battle is lost anyway, the day you want to protect a feral species you should also protect a native one. Alberta horse lovers are just a subspecies of anti or just a not fully grown peta members. There emotion is exactly the same as the one from antis. It's sad to see that half of our group is giving up to the other side.

By this comment alone it is obvious that you know absolutely nothing about this topic and this is your best attempt at inteligence. Please go to another thread about sandwiches or cooking that might benefit from your expertise and wisdom !!!

[Lonnie]

its all a negotiation, if you ask to eliminate them you mite get some controls if you ask for controls they ignore you. its like a union dealing with a company ask for everything get a decent wage maybe if you ask for crumbs you maybe lucky and get dust. point is you will never get what you ask for no matter how reasonable, so if you need controls in places ask for total eradication you may get some controls. other wise they will multiply to the point that they become huge pests and people will just start shooting them like they do gophers.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Here is one piece of literature with a few dates. Im sure some whith better research skills could show more.


http://dspace.ucalgary.ca/bitstream/.../1/Kincaid.pdf

SG

I missed what these "dates" are about, and I'm not going back to figure it out.


SH,

Do you realize that the paper you posted was sponsored by "The Big Wild", the head organization promoting "Yellowstone to Yukon" ?

The paper was funded for the purpose of having the Feral horse listed as an Endangered Species, with the intent to create parks wherever horses range, excluding hunting and resource extraction.

[bearbaits4u]

Another interesting insight I got from a Biologist I respect is the observation that different wolf packs have different abilities and preferences in terms of game.
One pack might hunt primarily Elk, another pack deer, another pack Caribou.
Most packs have their preferred species that they are good at hunting.
Most wolf packs do not have a good strategy for killing horses and are poor at it. The Bison up in the Assumption area suffer very little wolf depredation as the wolf packs there have not had enough time to figure out this relatively new arrival in the woods, although, I am told, there is more wolf predation then there was 20 years ago, the wolves are starting to maybe get a grip on a strategy for the Bison. Although predation is still quite low.

Also noted was as hard as it is for a wolf to kill a horse or a Bison, it is not very difficult for them to kill Caribou, which is not an overly bright animal to start with.

Having said this, it is easy to see that horses do not suffer much from natural predators. I have never seen a wolf kill an horse, although I know of two instances where grizzlies killed horses, one right at Deer Creek on the road, and one in James Pass.

Just what I've seen, others may well disagree.

[chad66]

::

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

So you wanna step in the ring and refer to me and every guy on here that doesnt think horses need to be completely removed as an anti or a peta member!!
It would be in your best intrest to back that statment up a little. You have no idea who you are actually talking too.
Did any of us insult you? Cause trust me I can if you wanna get into that!

But you know what if you have ran out of any logical talk in this thread and have found yourself in a discussion you know nothing about then I guess its easier to sling mud as we have seen that recently on this forum.

Good to see your true side pal.

SG

So is what you are saying ? in not so many words, don't go into a Battle of Witt's unarmed????
would I be right in that decipher????

[Rocks]

Originally Posted by st99

The battle is lost anyway, the day you want to protect a feral species you should also protect a native one. Alberta horse lovers are just a subspecies of anti or just a not fully grown peta members. There emotion is exactly the same as the one from antis. It's sad to see that half of our group is giving up to the other side.

I'm about as far from an anti as you can get, but I don't mind if there's a few wild horses running around the province. I don't think they should be protected ala WHOAS, I think they definitely should be controlled, but I don't think they should be exterminated. If they are competing with our wildlife they need to be removed. (You'll never see an open season on them so capture permits or a round up how it's gonna have to happen).

And yeah that's probably an emotional thing as I'm a horse "lover". The way I see it there were wild horses when the white man first came here, and there have been pockets of wildies ever since.

Bearbait here's a recent wolf study: http://www.fur.ca/files/Density,%20D...%20Summary.pdf

84 wolves from 19 packs in the Clearwater area (SG's neck of the woods) got collared, their kills were 54% deer, 24% moose, 17% elk and 7% feral horses. Each pack killed and average of one animal every three days.

[greylynx]

A lot of you lurkers from SRD see what is happening here.

How would you handle this situation from Hxxx.

The way I see it, your career in wildlife management would be toast if you were given the responsiblity to address this situation.

So what is going to happen? Is someone from inside SRD going to be sacrificed to handle this situation, or is someone from the outside going to be brought in to handle the task at hand?

All I can say is look out for that phone call from the ADM's office.

Yikes.

[Brady]

Wow, I just can't pain myself to read this whole thread. I did however read the last two pages and saw numerous insults hurled at each other. I am going to close this thread, and if you fine folks feel the need to strike up another discussion on this topic, and you decide that in your glass houses you will once again hurl rocks......there will be some time outs issued. Consider this a blanket warning to those that need to heed it..............