Bowhunting Virgin stupid question

[Rantastic]

How far is too far for an arrow to be useful/ehtical on big game.
Now Don't just say 40 yards! or as long as you can hit a pie plate.
I'm talkin about energy required for a fatal wound.

In rifle hunting, you should have 1000ft/Lbs of energy in that bullet for whats considered an ethical deer shot and 1500 ft/lbs for an ethical moose/elk shot. after 8 or 900m many bullets simply dont have enough energy left to do the job if you managed to hit a moose or elk it would simply give them a non legal wound. Just as shooting geese that are too far away and the BB's simply bounce off them.

Is there a similar guide to bow hunting? Is there a recommended amount of energy required to cause a fatal wound in a moose? Say Would an average carbon arrow out of the average bow shooting 300fps at the "muzzle" have enough ethical energy to be fatal on a moose at 40 yards? 70 yards? 100 yards? 130 yards? If you were a crack shot and could make a good hit at any distance,is there a known distance or energy(as energy is lost over distance) where an arrow stops getting lethal penetration and might only stick in 1 - 3 inches?

Not going to apply this to my shooting or hunting methods so dont jump on me for the no shots over 40 ever or anything like that this is purely for hypothetical discussion.

[hunter10]

I saw a video of a cow moose getting it, Shot was about 67 yards and they say it only went about 40 yards.

I dont think there would be enough power in that arrows to kill a moose past 80 yards, Im sure it has happened but thats my opinion

[Artist]

How far is too far and how much enegry is not enough are questions that will be debated and argued over 'till the cows come home. I frankly am sick of people telling me what I "can" and "should never do" when it comes to shooting an arrow. I know my bow, I know my strengths and weaknesses, I know what my broadheads will do. Those factors combined with the unique factors of every opportunity to make a kill, are what determine my methods, not what some stranger decides to define as "ethical" or "not ethical".

In my humble opinion, technology in archery today equips shooters to make shots far past 40 yards (provided the shooter is comfortable with whatever distance is in question.) An arrow with a proper broadhead is a lethal weapon. I shot an elk last season at a ranged 75 yards using a Rage 2-blade broadhead and an 80# bow. The arrow went in broadside, completely cut one rib, and penetrated half-way through the heart; she went about 40 yards. Ethical?...ya, I'll probably get raked over the coals for sharing this,(save your steam for another thread) but like I said, the "rules" that regulate others' equipment and methods are not always applicable across the board. All I know is that that Elk is now very "ethically" dead and is in my freezer.

I'm not promoting the idea that all run out and attempt long-distance shots, but on the other hand, it always baffles me how some will spend mega-bucks on the latest in archery-killing technology purchasing the fastest bows, the best arrows, the best sights, and the best broadheads, but will then limit the use of their amazing equipment to 30-40 yards.
(Kinda like buying a Porsche, but setting the governor at 40km/hr)

I guess each to his own, but my advice would be:
Know your equipment...
Know your strengths...
Know your weaknesses...
...use THOSE factors to determine your methods...and go hunting!

[russ]

accuracy and time of flight is more the issue than energy in most case. BTW, pie plate accuracy isn't good enough.

[209x50]

I`ve watched several mule deer shot with compound bows at 80 to 100 yards.

[silvertip]

no-pie plate accuracy is not good enough at any distance!
long shoots if you know your equipment and shooting ability.
personally I like to get as close as possible that is why I took up the fantastic sport of archery.

[Rantastic]

thanks that is all good info... and i think im just curious on a bit more info out of artist here... You and i are ont he same page where if a bow man gets to his top 1% of all hunters out there for knowing his stuff, the way it shoots and his accuracy is top notch... at 75 yards ur arrow had a penetration of...12 inches or so so get halfway through the heart? That seems ethical to me... Thanks for sharin, like i said i was just curious when an arrows staarts only getting a couple inches of penetration and is not capable of striking the heart and lungs. On big game. I say 80 yards with a top bow is amount as far as you could expect eh?
I believe The deer you could get another 20 yrds like 209 is sayin cuz they are smaller and easier to break through into organs. Good to hear it can be done, ill take your word for it since there is no way I'd be able to hit one at 40 yrds right now with my skills lol

So a moose at 100 yards presents quite a large target and im sure some have attempted it in perfect conditions but would the arrow break through all the hair and skin and rib and make it to the organs? Maybe, most likely not? opinions from actual bowhunters?

[Rantastic]

ok the pie plate accuracy is what i was going off cuz its what i was told was acceptable... obviously not a good piece of advice. What size groups do you guys consider a must for yourself before you would take that shot at a deer/elk/moose?

consistent 4 inch? 6 inch?

[pottymouth]

When your talking ethical shots, it all comes down to the archer. There are numerous factors that determine how efficiently the kill shot will be. Arrow flight , accuracy and confidence play major factors. So does the type of broadhead, arrow it's self, arrow speed, weight and poundage of bow.A heaveier , faster arrow, with a higher bow poundage will definatley give better chances of having enough energy to kill a deer.

But if it is a number your looking for, I'm not 100% on this but I believe for deer the number is around the 46ish ft/pounds to achieve lethal penetration. The number gets higher the bigger the animal. Then you gotta determine mathamatically what your bow is capable of doing for the distance.Then ethically you gotta figure out what is acceptable in your mind.The last thing you want is to wound and lose something.Remember we as archers get more excited about 10 yard shots than 60 yarders, but there is a place for everything in hunting. 80- 100 yard shots, wouldn't that make an intresting t.v show, especially without editing!

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by crazy_fool1

ok the pie plate accuracy is what i was going off cuz its what i was told was acceptable... obviously not a good piece of advice. What size groups do you guys consider a must for yourself before you would take that shot at a deer/elk/moose?

consistent 4 inch? 6 inch?

A pie plate is what has been used for a bench mark for years, I dunno why it is not accepotable now.
Cat

[Artist]

crazy fool1...

The shot on the Elk that I described presented itself with enough positive factors that, in that moment, convinced me that taking a shot was not a huge risk. She was standing still, broadside, at the edge of an open field (no trees or branches in the way), she had not detected me, there was absolutely no wind, and I had a sight-pin for that distance. All the planets lined up for this particular shot, and it may never happen to me again.

Practicing a lot at farther distances will do a couple things:
1) It will build your confidence for a larger range of distances (even if a longer-distance shot never presents itself).
2) It will illustrate the penetration capabilities of an arrow at farther distances.

On the shot on the elk, had the arrow not had to have cut a rib first, it would have obviously penetrated much farther. Unless you're good enough to be able to shoot between the ribs, hitting a rib is a factor that is absolutely impossible to predict. So, could you kill something at a much farther distance?...sure, if you don't hit a rib. In this case, I knew the arrow had the energy to punch through regardless, but, like you've indicated in your first post, there is indeed a maximum distance for any bow/arrow combination where the arrow will no longer carry the ability to cut a rib and make a clean kill. Exactly where that line is for my particular setup, I'm not sure, but, I knew it wasn't at 75 yards. On that note, I'd be happy to put a plug in here for Rage broadheads. There was a skiff of snow that morning and after the shot (from the distance of 75yards), I could already clearly see the blood-trail in the snow. When I walked over to the impact point, it looked as though someone had spray-bombed the snow with red paint all the way over to where she dropped. This was as "ethical" of a kill as had it been a 20-yard broadside shot.

Knowledge of your pariclar set-up is as powerful as the arrow you intend to shoot!

Here is a photo of the penetrated heart...

[209x50]

Remember we as archers get more excited about 10 yard shots than 60 yarders, but there is a place for everything in hunting. 80- 100 yard shots, wouldn't that make an intresting t.v show, especially without editing!

I guess that would depend on what you consider an interesting TV show, and these shots didn`t require anymore editing than the average 10 to 20 yard bow shot.

[Kale_M]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

A pie plate is what has been used for a bench mark for years, I dunno why it is not accepotable now.
Cat

if you could put 3 shots in a pie plate(5 or 6" group) with your rifle at 100 yards would you be satisfied? i dont think so...from what i have seen on this site if guys cant get 3 shots touching at 100 yards that rifle does not get to be packed along for the hunt. Why would a bow be any diferent?

Bow hunters should be practicing YEAR ROUND! I have seen way to many guys dig there bow out the day before the season, shoot 3 shots and just hit the target but and consider that good enough...

funny how once the season comes aroudn you hear of so many storeis on here of guys wounding deeer and not finding them...

[Rantastic]

true wounded deer are unfortunate and dont have to happen nearly as often as they will. But most riflemen actual are happy with 4 inch groups at 200yards and then they know not to shoot farther.

A 1.5 inch group is what gun manufacturers guarantee when they build their guns so if you only take ones with 1/3 moa groups or less id say ur throwing out at leaset 9 out of 10 rifles? Come on Kale.
A 5 inch group is acceptible for any range in my books as it is 2.5 inches from center of the deers heart will be an ethical lethal shot. so if i can hit a 5 inch gongs everytime at 500m u better believe thats acceptible. If i could only do it at 200m then id not shoot past 200.

Well i guess i just answerd my pie plate question... every man sets his own rules and boudaries drawn from his personal experiences.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Artist

How far is too far and how much enegry is not enough are questions that will be debated and argued over 'till the cows come home. I frankly am sick of people telling me what I "can" and "should never do" when it comes to shooting an arrow.

I tend to agree with you, but I have found these sort of "standards" useful when I'm just starting out in something. I think they are best thought of as "guidelines".

[nicholal]

Not my own words just for info share

Kinetic Energy
Hunting Usage

< 25 ft. lbs.
Small Game (rabbit, groundhog, etc.)
25-41 ft. lbs.
Medium Game (deer, antelope, etc.)
42-65 ft. lbs.
Large Game (elk, black bear, wild boar, etc.)
> 65 ft. lbs.
Toughest Game (cape buffalo, grizzly, musk ox, etc.)


According to Easton's recommendations, 55 ft-lbs of KE would be plenty for most popular North American game species. But is that a guarantee of success? Absolutely not!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

so for all the top notch archers out there set up your crono's out at 50-60-70-80 yards and pass an arrow thru the speed trap and let us know. I know my set up pushs an arrow off the string at 57 ft/lbs. After that i know it will kill out to 20 yards as it has in te past. So I figure my arrow Could pass thru a moose at 25-30 yards but after that ??

Just My opinion

AL

[Kale_M]

People kill deer all the time with long bows and recurves that shoot 150fps, and a lot les KE then a modern compound bow will produce. The arrow will penetrate. Shoot sharp, quality broadheads and Make sure you put the arrow where is needs to go.

[switchsl]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I tend to agree with you, but I have found these sort of "standards" useful when I'm just starting out in something. I think they are best thought of as "guidelines".

I agree.

[curtisb]

This is definately something that will be debated until the end of time.

One thing that I am really having a tough time understanding is the whole "heart shot" idea. I have been taught from day one to shoot for the lungs. This allows for slightly more of the human error effect. I never isolate my target zone to the heart. If the opportunity dictates it, well of course I will try and get the arrow in there.
The lungs offer so much more, even if you can get one... the animal isn't going to go far.

The arguement of penetration must come purely from people hitting animals square in the shoulder, when they are trying to get to the heart.

I have somewhat little experience with the bow (5 years), but have never had any issues with penetration whatsoever. The lungs offer a very large kill zone and the ribs won't stop any modern archery tackle. Fixed blades are designed to crack bone/and/or deflect in a forward direction.
With deer, I have only shot one to date without a pass through, and it was a doe at 48 yards. I shot her center mass with a very slight quartering-toward angle. The arrow went through her sternum and ended up with the broadhead and about 2/3 of the arrow hanging out just behing her shoulder.
With moose if they are broadside, I'm 3/5 on passthroughs. I had one arrow stop on the outside shoulder on a quartering away shot at 53 yards. (the entire arrow was inside the animals diaphram, and I reused it, only changing one blade) I also pulled and made a poor shot at 33 yards and hit a bull in the shoulder (higher than the heart region). The arrow went 16 inches into the chest cavitiy. I actually could not believe how devistating the damage was, as the arrow did the bicyle effect inside the animal as it ran off. AN ARROW AND A BROADHEAD IS DEFINETALY A LETHAL WEAPON!

As far as yardage, I try to stay inside 60, just because my practice facility (my yard) doesn't allow me to practice from longer yardages. If I could, I would, no questions asked.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

A pie plate is what has been used for a bench mark for years, I dunno why it is not accepotable now.
Cat

I second that, if you can put 10 out of 10 arrows into a pie plate at 20 yards you can kill animals at that range, deer's lungs havnt gotten any smaller in recent years. The reason a rifle hunter wants such close groups at 100 is because he plans on shooting much farther, offhand with a rifle I shoot about a pie plate sized group at 100 yards and I know that is as far as I can ethicaly take deer from that position. Sitting or prone my groups are much smaller and I can take kill deer over twice as far away. Sub MOA groups are not needed to kill big game, far more important is that the shooter know the range at which his groups become too large to reliably strike the kill zone of his intended game, or about the size of a pie plate.

[jim-bo]

Good God, here we go again... Long range archery

Nothing says that you can not attempt long shots on game, if you put your practise time in you could certain achieve tremendous accuracy at extended ranges. Just as you could with long range rifle shooting. However, you are restricted by your choice of equipment. A FITA archery set up would not prove to be proficient for hunting purposes at their intended ranges, punching holes in paper at 70m and 90m hell yea. You could certainly create a hunting bow capable of long range accuracy and killing power.

A rough idea of the required ft lbs of energy required to kill different game has been given, you will need to keep this in mind.

You will need a grain scale in order to measure the weight of your arrows, and cronograph in order to establish your speed.

Energy calculation is simple E=1/2 m*v*v (or velocity squared)

establish your energy off the string, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 m and see how much of your energy remains.

42 ft lbs for deer sized game, and 65 ft lbs for elk sized game.

Here is where it gets tricky, competition archers shoot lower poundage which allows them to practice and complete longer with out fatigue, which is why a 40lb FITA set up would not be efficient for long range hunting, you dig?

You can transform you bow sight in to a 2,3,4,5,6X scope if you wanted and if you are constantly shooting that distance, then a scope would help, but it would limit your short game.

Now find a place to practise that you can shoot out to 90m or 98yrds, and see how many arrows you can put into a pie plate?

Its harder than you would think,

now increase the varibles, wind, broadheads, flinching, mis calculations, game movement, flight time, head wind, back wind, cross wind, even increased drag,etc...

I wouldn't even consider taking a long range shot on an animal unless the conditions were ideal, you can practise all you want at those long ranges, and I do all the time. I also try to ring a 600 yard gong with my rifles.

If i were able to put 9/10 (90% connection rate is pretty awesome at that range) arrows with broadheads into a pie plate on my broadhead target at 90m in ideal as well as adverse conditions, and I had enough energy to cleanly and ethically take game I would consider the shot, only after I have exhausted every other possible and concievable option for getting closer to that animal.

So if your a bowhunting Virgin... why are you looking into long range archery hunting?

Pop your cherry at something more obtainable like 20,30,40m

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Kale_M

if you could put 3 shots in a pie plate(5 or 6" group) with your rifle at 100 yards would you be satisfied? i dont think so...from what i have seen on this site if guys cant get 3 shots touching at 100 yards that rifle does not get to be packed along for the hunt. Why would a bow be any diferent?

Bow hunters should be practicing YEAR ROUND! I have seen way to many guys dig there bow out the day before the season, shoot 3 shots and just hit the target but and consider that good enough...

funny how once the season comes aroudn you hear of so many storeis on here of guys wounding deeer and not finding them...

Nobody mentioned not shooting all year round or practicing three days before a hunt.
I shoot stick bows only ( when my shoulder lets me) and yes, pie plate accuracy at 20 yards is fine.
Although my rifles will do much better than a pie plate at 100 yards, that diameter WILL kill a deer in its vital zone.
It's not what the equipment is capable of, but the operator.
Cat