Sheep on a Draw?

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

I gotta agree with Sheepguide on this one....

Strangely, me too!

[Bighorn sheep guide]

I would have to agree also, some of the girls I know that hunt sheep. Work just as hard or harder than most of the guys I know. I look at the people that have been drawn on the Cadimin and wonder how all these profile people get drawn. Makes you wonder?
There is a new sheep harvest management plan coming, there is alot of groups in on what is being brought to the table. It is to bad that everyone wouldn't stop pointing fingers and bring some stuff to the table that would maybe help save the hunting we have how. Instead of whining that there is no big rams. Look at the 2 young guys that took that big ram down south. First time ever hunting sheep. So as far as saying there isn't big rams around maybe people should get off the road and get back into the real sheep country.

[ishootbambi]

yes all...i agree too. and yes their nonsheephuntingonaregularbasisbuddy should have been included. there are other descriptions of hunters as well that dont regularly hunt sheep but apply for the draws. why is that? the draws create huge rams that for the most part are much easier to hunt. as stated...ALL ALBERTANS have the right to apply for those draws, and ALL ALBERTANS have the right to hunt them when they get drawn. they also have the right to hunt everything else in this province with any legal weapon. I GET IT. ishootbambi is an arsehole for saying it. the topic however is draws for sheep and a discussion of how to fix things. the truth is, the suggestion would make a dent in the casual applicants making some of the sheep draws the nightmare that they are.

as for ms grosso, congratulations to her again. i read her story and i believe she did put in a great effort. what im getting at however is the guys who put their wives name in knowing full well they arent shooting anything. we've all heard the stories of guys getting tags in their wives name so they can shoot more stuff. the ugliest one i know of is a mountain goat packed out of the wilmore at 2 am. the wife who drew the tag was not even on the mountain when hubby made the kill. resulting investigation from what i heard was not enough evidence.

for the wives and daughters who do hunt..good for you. for guys whose wives and daughters dont....get them out there. some of them like it but just dont know it yet. ive said it in other threads, i am all for getting the ladies involved...i just dont think it should be a way to get extra opportunity for husbands and fathers.

ok....beat me some more for the original comment because yes i do deserve it.

Originally Posted by Bighorn sheep guide

II look at the people that have been drawn on the Cadimin and wonder how all these profile people get drawn. Makes you wonder?
.

Likely by applying but I could be way out to lunch....

[Gulo gulo]

If the resident hunters have to wait 5 years after being successful the outfitter’s “allocation” should sit out for 5 years as well. It should be based on the tag not the hunter.

This province’s wildlife management has gone to the highest bidder. It’s very sad. Wildlife management should be based on Habitat, population trends and so on, instead it based on money.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Gulo gulo

If the resident hunters have to wait 5 years after being successful the outfitter’s “allocation” should sit out for 5 years as well. It should be based on the tag not the hunter.

This province’s wildlife management has gone to the highest bidder. It’s very sad. Wildlife management should be based on Habitat, population trends and so on, instead it based on money.

So your saying that an outfitter that has 4 tags and kills 4 rams shouldnt hunt for 5 years. Or some of the guys that have only a couple elk tags should only hunt a couple elk every 5 years. Come on!
Be a good way to get rid of outfitters. But not a very realistic sollution to anything.

[Bighorn sheep guide]

Originally Posted by Gulo gulo

If the resident hunters have to wait 5 years after being successful the outfitter’s “allocation” should sit out for 5 years as well. It should be based on the tag not the hunter.

This province’s wildlife management has gone to the highest bidder. It’s very sad. Wildlife management should be based on Habitat, population trends and so on, instead it based on money.

Well when you take $350 000.00 plus dollars to a sheep,elk and mule deer tag and that money is suppose to go back into the wildlife. I think that isn't to bad for 3 aninmals do you.

[Bighorn sheep guide]

How about the minister tag, that residents are suppose to be able to buy, up until last year you couldn't buy raffle tickets, they went to the highest bidder for the 2 years prior. Also did you know if you get drawn for one of the cadimon tags you can still put your name into draw age. Shouldn't it be once in a life time for the tag?

Originally Posted by Bighorn sheep guide

How about the minister tag, that residents are suppose to be able to buy, up until last year you couldn't buy raffle tickets, they went to the highest bidder for the 2 years prior. Also did you know if you get drawn for one of the cadimon tags you can still put your name into draw age. Shouldn't it be once in a life time for the tag?

There were two years (2008 and 2009) that the tickets did seem to sell out suspiciously fast. Thankfully, the number of tickets printed has been increased and tickets are available to all. Previous to 2008 it never seemed to be an issue.

I'd agree that 438 should be a once-in-a-lifetime draw but as it isn't, you can't blame people for applying again.

[pottymouth]

-Re structure some zones, by turning all front ranges into wildlife corridors, (i.e hwy 40, hwy 11 etc.)

-Relieve some draw pressure in the famous November zones, by opening 1 tag November lottery in a few more zones.

-Restrict access to some zones, to foot access only.

- Perhaps increasing a couple zones to full curl, if they can obtain it.

-Increase the sheep tag price, and perhaps introduce a trophy fee.

-For the ambitious, attempt to regain some territory lost to wildlife parks.

Just my opinions, and thoughts that might solve some problems.

I believe that would take pressure off some sheep, allow bigger sheep to grow, promote bigger rams harvests, reduce the number of chance hunters that shoot squeeker rams, and maintain a decent draw system and oppoturnity.

Potty

Originally Posted by Bighorn sheep guide

Well when you take $350 000.00 plus dollars to a sheep,elk and mule deer tag and that money is suppose to go back into the wildlife. I think that isn't to bad for 3 aninmals do you.

I think he was talking about the outfitter allocations...not the Minister's Special Licences.

[Bighorn sheep guide]

Well even outfitter tags, now much money does that bring in each year? You should know what a Bighorn hunt goes for, 2 week hunt? How many outfitter tags are there?

[Bighorn sheep guide]

TJ, I have to say that I think you hit the nail on the nose with your article in the Outdoors men.
The only thing I hope they do add is that sheep hunters can buy a cougar tag when the season opens, especially in the 400 units. NO dogs just a tag.

[Single Malt]

Originally Posted by Bighorn sheep guide

I think that if a draw system comes the outfitters get cut back to I believe is 5or 10% of resident tags let out in that zone

This is not the case at all. The head big game bio in the province informed me that the non-resident sheep allocations are not under these same percentage restrictions as they were established before this system. So in fact resident sheep hunting opportunities can be significantly restricted with no change to outfitter allocations- a situation that is completely unacceptable.

[Single Malt]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

So your saying that an outfitter that has 4 tags and kills 4 rams shouldnt hunt for 5 years. Or some of the guys that have only a couple elk tags should only hunt a couple elk every 5 years. Come on!
Be a good way to get rid of outfitters. But not a very realistic sollution to anything.

If I have to sit for 5 years why in the world should a non-resident be able to hunt every year?? (I am not referring to the individual who would also have to sit but some non-resident would be hunting- there are 300 million people next door!)

Really?? They are ALBERTA bighorns why are Albertans restricted while non-resident aliens can hunt. Any limitations to my hunting traditions better not come until long after non-resident restrictions.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Single Malt

If I have to sit for 5 years why in the world should a non-resident be able to hunt every year?? (I am not referring to the individual who would also have to sit but some non-resident would be hunting- there are 300 million people next door!)

Really?? They are ALBERTA bighorns why are Albertans restricted while non-resident aliens can hunt. Any limitations to my hunting traditions better not come until long after non-resident restrictions.

I look at the big picture. I agree that if our tags are cut then possible cut from outfitters but not to the point that you wipe out their operation.

Many Albertans hunt in other provinces, states and countries and enjoy doing so. We like having this opertunity so we shouldnt mind returning the oppertunity.

Many zones have 4 non resident tags with a few holding 8. These arent huge numbers and of these tags many outfitters only run a 50% average which doesnt add up to huge numbers of rams.

I feel that if residents go to a wait Non resident should have to have a longer wait.

I cant beleive how many people have the mine mine mine attitude.
SG

[Single Malt]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I cant beleive how many people have the mine mine mine attitude.
SG

It is the opposite of a mine mine mine attitude. It is a passionate belief in ensuring that our Albertan wildlife and hunting opportunities are sustainable for all our future generations. I am fighting for my and your and everyone’s children and their children’s children and so forth. I am also, in the most significant way, looking at the big picture of our hunting heritage.

[Bighorn sheep guide]

I don't know were you get your info from, but if we have a 5 year wait the non-residents will also. I can say that I have only ever taken 1 guy in 20 years to hunt sheep twice. Isn't that what it is all about saving a chance for the next generation? I know I what my kids to be able to go hunting every year. The 5 year wait was shut down by all the groups to the SRD. So hope they might make it a real 2 years or 3 years or they will go with the draw. At least the guys that are putting in for there wife,kids etc may have to think about shouting the little ones. Let them grow, they cann't get big if you shot all the just legal ones.
They real questions is longer wait or a draw?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Single Malt

It is the opposite of a mine mine mine attitude. It is a passionate belief in ensuring that our Albertan wildlife and hunting opportunities are sustainable for all our future generations. I am fighting for my and your and everyone’s children and their children’s children and so forth. I am also, in the most significant way, looking at the big picture of our hunting heritage.

Well maybe we should close our border and keep everything to ourselves. Then others will do the same to us that way our kids could never hunt africa, the Yukon, BC or the states. No albertan would ever be able to obtain the coveted grand slam. None of our kids would ever get to hunt the great caribou migration. None of our kids would ever get to head to the north and hunt muskox.

They would have no dreams of hunting else where because good old dad wanted all the animals in alberta because they are entilted to him.

We do need to control what and how much non residents should be allowed to hunt but shutting it down completely is just selfish and wrong.
SG

Originally Posted by Bighorn sheep guide

They real questions is longer wait or a draw?

I honestly don't see how they can accomplish anything close to the same results. Even those that have proposed them never indicated that they'd accomplish the same things. I really don't see it as a choice that will offer the same results. If you want more older rams, a longer wait isn't going to help at all.

[Single Malt]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Well maybe we should close our border and keep everything to ourselves. Then others will do the same to us that way our kids could never hunt africa, the Yukon, BC or the states. No albertan would ever be able to obtain the coveted grand slam. None of our kids would ever get to hunt the great caribou migration. None of our kids would ever get to head to the north and hunt muskox.

They would have no dreams of hunting else where because good old dad wanted all the animals in alberta because they are entilted to him.

We do need to control what and how much non residents should be allowed to hunt but shutting it down completely is just selfish and wrong.
SG

Sheepguide,

Please don't put 'words in my mouth'. I have never stated that I wanted our province shut down to non-residents. My point is that the resident hunters should not be restricted without restrictions to non-residents first. This is a point I believe we both have agreed to in past posts.

It is a very fictitious argument when SRD says that the restrictions will be the same:

"A 5 year resident wait will be the same- as a successful non-resident will also have to wait 5 years".

As you, and others have said most clients are not repeats so some non-resident will be hunting every year while the residents sit. Unacceptable.

Also, I get my information straight from the people in government who are in charge of these decisions as I have made many phone calls and have sent and received a variety of letters.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Single Malt

Also, I get my information straight from the people in government who are in charge of these decisions as I have made many phone calls and have sent and received a variety of letters.

Im am proud of you for this but just so you know you are not the only person on this forum that is concerned and has gone through many different channels to find out and keep track of what is possibly happening with our sheep situations.

I have from the start stated that we need to lower non resident allocations if our resident situation is decreased. But for the health of our heards the non residents arent the major factor. Controling 2000 general tags will do alot more than controling the less than 100 non resident tags that are here.
SG

[Bighorn sheep guide]

OK , I agree with you to a point, But what do you think kills more sheep, hunters? wolves? or Cats? and donn't forget about the old griz?
Then tell me where the real problem is.
Look at how much money is spent on relocating sheep. Look at sheep mountain?

[Bighorn sheep guide]

I almost forgot to and, habitat and how about are springs lately. How many bands of rams do you think get taken out with snow slides? So really are we managing sheep for bigger older rams. Or just more preditors? As it is to politiclly sensitive , or the preditors going to be managed also?
I cann't believe that as a resident we would want any changes until these ones are adressed first.

I hunt sheep every year to try and get one bigger than my wifes and get my kids off the couch.

[Single Malt]

Originally Posted by Bighorn sheep guide

OK , I agree with you to a point, But what do you think kills more sheep, hunters? wolves? or Cats? and donn't forget about the old griz?
Then tell me where the real problem is.
Look at how much money is spent on relocating sheep. Look at sheep mountain?

I agree with what you and sheepguide are saying in regards to habitat and predator management. I have also never said that I think we should manage hunters instead of the resource. My point is that IF there is any change it needs to address the far more successful non-residents.

Currently, I support absolutely no change, as SRD is not able to adequately explain, why and how the changes are going to help. This is one of the reasons I am concerned about where this 'push' is coming from. It seems much more political than biological with the results impacting resident hunter opportunity- hence why I am bringing up these points.

[Bighorn sheep guide]

Originally Posted by Single Malt

I agree with what you and sheepguide are saying in regards to habitat and predator management. I have also never said that I think we should manage hunters instead of the resource. My point is that IF there is any change it needs to address the far more successful non-residents.

Currently, I support absolutely no change, as SRD is not able to adequately explain, why and how the changes are going to help. This is one of the reasons I am concerned about where this 'push' is coming from. It seems much more political than biological with the results impacting resident hunter opportunity- hence why I am bringing up these points.

That is it, how much money has been spent on wolf/bear and cougar studies? The same out come is they need to be managed. but as it is Politically sensitive. All management on this animals have been stopped by the gov'n. I just think that if gov'n is going to make changes this is were it should start first. If they cann't manage these then why are they going to try and manage the # of hunters. Why because it is easier to manage us!

[SLH]

Couple things in response to the latest discussion, I still feel that if they actually managed the sheep herd as was laid out in the Management Plan then we wouldn’t be having many of these discussions. The outfitters where allotted 20 % of the harvest up to 41 animals, so why not maintain this and manage it appropriately. This is the fair way of doing this and everyone takes a little for the team. If harvest numbers go down then so should the allocations as per the management plan. Somehow we have gotten to a point where it is the responsibility of the govt. to supply the outfitters with a living. The deal was struck in the management plan so live with it nothing has changed except the govt desire to generate cash at the expense of the herd and resident hunters.

I get frustrated continuously hearing that wait times won’t work as if it is proven fact, it is an opinion held by some. I feel that they would work in two ways, first it will limit the harvest by reducing the number of hunters in the field, and secondly it will reduce the number of short rams harvested by making hunters think about the action of killing just any ram. If we as hunters know that we will be out of the field for the next five years our standards will most likely go up leaving smaller rams on the mountain, I know it won’t be all hunters but I know that there will be some of us that will think that way. I also know that this might not come to a big number but even 20 extra rams left on the mountain every year will have an impact.

If some think that a solution to the impossible draws needs to be addressed than fix that. The solution to that problem is not to put all other sheep on draw. Even a few more WMU’s on draw will force more of the general hunters into adjacent areas just moving the problem around and eventually forcing them on a draw as well.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by SLH

If some think that a solution to the impossible draws needs to be addressed than fix that. The solution to that problem is not to put all other sheep on draw. Even a few more WMU’s on draw will force more of the general hunters into adjacent areas just moving the problem around and eventually forcing them on a draw as well.

SLH, I pretty much agree with your whole post, with emphasis on this part of it for now.

SRD has stated that "there may be more WMUs going on draw for trophy sheep". They are considering this without showing any evidence of a management concern.

There is no question that a further restriction with more draw only areas will only increase pressure in general areas... and so the path to draw only for all sheep continues!

Go back a few pages in this thread and many people were pushing for predator and habitat management before hunter management. Let's get back to that concept, and tell SRD to get with the program, the Sheep Management Plan.

http://srd.alberta.ca/ManagingProgra...ghornSheep.pdf

[ishootbambi]

a few things to note. first, hunter managemnet and game management are the same thing. hunters are nothing but a tool in game management and to think otherwise is missing the point. thats how srd sees us....just a tool to accomplish their goals. i think we all agree that a few less cougars and wolves would be great. quotas on cougars in most areas is pretty low from what i see, and the season dates are pretty restricdtive for most hunters. when i was younger, i remember seeing a cougar come out of k-country during elk season. it was a chance opportunity. the guy was elk hunting and ran into a cougar. it would be great to see that come back as those chance encounters could mean a cougar for a guy who is unwilling or unable financially to pay a guy with dogs and result in a few less kitty's on the mountain. the finger was pointed at outfitters complaining that they were losing revenue, but i was told once the reason the season was moved after the ungulate season was that in some areas cougar success ran unusuall high. wink wink nudge nudge. rumor had it too many guys shot cats and THEN went to pick up a tag. if that was the concern, make a tag 10 bucks. more gun toting elk hunters with a tag in their pocket would surely result in a few more kills. keep the registration requirement so srd has a handle on whats going on. just a thought.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

SRD has stated that "there may be more WMUs going on draw for trophy sheep". They are considering this without showing any evidence of a management concern.

Ummm...not true, there are population/management concerns in few identified WMUs. Coincidentally, the very ones they are considering for a draw.