Sheep on a Draw?

[ishootbambi]

ok guide, you are pro draw or more time between tags. yup, that would reduce hunter numbers, and therefore provide more mature rams in those areas. so far so good. but then you argue both sides again. guys would complain about only getting to hunt every 5 years or so. well, you cant have it both ways. there are more guys wanting rams than there are rams out there. without limiting hunters on the mountain, bigger rams isnt going to happen. then, im not positive, but i think you say you dont want to leave any areas of the province off the draw? you point out that if that were the case, those areas left general would see increased pressure. well thats true, but those areas would hold barely legal rams which you say you are not interested in, so who cares? that situation already exists in alberta with other species. there are general mule deer zones in alberta that have very very few older mature big antlered bucks. near medicine hat, there are supposed draw zones that also hold nothing but small bucks. i say supposed because although you have to apply for a draw, you can be drawn every year because there are so many tags handed out. often it is normal to see more hunters than deer in these zones. sound familiar? yet in some zones managed for trophy bucks there are wait times of up to 5 years to get a tag, and there are numerous trophy bucks to choose from. furhtermore, there are less other hunters to compete with. as a trophy hunter, i am willing to wait longer to try for a big buck, yet there are opportunities for the meat hunters as well. thats all im asking for with the sheep. i dont need to be greedy and ask for the entire province, but please SRD....give me someplace to have a decent opportunity to have a quality hunt for big mature rams.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

ok guide, you are pro draw or more time between tags. yup, that would reduce hunter numbers, and therefore provide more mature rams in those areas. so far so good. but then you argue both sides again. guys would complain about only getting to hunt every 5 years or so. well, you cant have it both ways.


as a trophy hunter, i am willing to wait longer to try for a big buck, yet there are opportunities for the meat hunters as well. thats all im asking for with the sheep.

For the first question I said that if guys have to wait more years to get rams they will be unhappy but also said to get camera and get hunting. People dont need a ram every 2 years.

You are comparing to the meat hunting of deer but why should we leave a zone open with twice as many hunters going into it? All its gunna do is make sure there are no legal rams around and more small sheep to be shot. Sheep meat is great but I guarentee that no one goes out there with a ram tag in their pocket thinking, gee hope I get a meat ram today. If you need meat by some doe tags!!!!!

Sheep is a trophy animal and anyone that cant wait a little longer to kill a ram or longer between rams has their priority wrong.

[steve]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

For the first question I said that if guys have to wait more years to get rams they will be unhappy but also said to get camera and get hunting. People dont need a ram every 2 years.

You are comparing to the meat hunting of deer but why should we leave a zone open with twice as many hunters going into it? All its gunna do is make sure there are no legal rams around and more small sheep to be shot. Sheep meat is great but I guarentee that no one goes out there with a ram tag in their pocket thinking, gee hope I get a meat ram today. If you need meat by some doe tags!!!!!

Sheep is a trophy animal and anyone that cant wait a little longer to kill a ram or longer between rams has their priority wrong.

Good post

[ishootbambi]

ok, so then we are in agreement for the most part. the only clarification is to say i never said anyone is hunting meat rams. it is merely a comparison of hunting opportunity versus trophy quality. the majority of sheep hunters want bigger rams, but there are hundreds of guys out there who would gladly take any legal ram if given the chance. im just trying to include them as well by leaving some zones open for them.

[buddyhunter]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

ok, so then we are in agreement for the most part. the only clarification is to say i never said anyone is hunting meat rams. it is merely a comparison of hunting opportunity versus trophy quality. the majority of sheep hunters want bigger rams, but there are hundreds of guys out there who would gladly take any legal ram if given the chance. im just trying to include them as well by leaving some zones open for them.

if you put sheep on draw you're looking at a 10+ year wait to get drawn.


there's got to be a better way.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

For the first question I said that if guys have to wait more years to get rams they will be unhappy but also said to get camera and get hunting. People dont need a ram every 2 years.

You are comparing to the meat hunting of deer but why should we leave a zone open with twice as many hunters going into it? All its gunna do is make sure there are no legal rams around and more small sheep to be shot. Sheep meat is great but I guarentee that no one goes out there with a ram tag in their pocket thinking, gee hope I get a meat ram today. If you need meat by some doe tags!!!!!

Sheep is a trophy animal and anyone that cant wait a little longer to kill a ram or longer between rams has their priority wrong.

I totally disagree. In 24 years I've killed three rams but I oppose any legislation that would have kept me out of the field for more than one year after killing a sheep. Just because I have a tag in my pocket doesn't mean I'm going to kill a ram but it does give me the opportunity to be in the field and kill a really big ram if I see one. Going in the field with a camera is most definitely not hunting. Hunting is a blood sport and a camera sheds no blood. I have no interest in killing a ram every two years but I do not want my opportunity to hunt them taken away.

There are a couple basic flaws I see with longer wait times. First, I'm really not convinced there is a problem with guys shooting too many rams but even if there is, and it's a big is, why penalize those that work hard and learn about sheep hunting. I haven't killed many big whitetails so perhaps successful whitetail hunters should sit out five years. Either that or I could get off my lazy butt and hunt them harder. Second, if the guy who killed a ram two years ago is kept out of the field, does F&W really believe that someone else isn't going to come along and kill that same legal ram. I don't see this a reducing harvest at all. It may assist some of the unsuccessful sheep hunters in harvesting a ram but some time and hard work could do that as well.

Why penalize a guy that works hard and is successful?

[whitetail Junkie]

Areas with High hunting pressure should go on draw.

[LongDraw]

The only way I see a sheep draw increasing the chance at an old mature ram, above 8 yrs old is the lottery style draw. Sacrifice a few zones that hold good genetics and give out so few tags that killing a few bruiser rams every year has no effect on the population. Make it a once in a lifetime tag.

Cadomin and 408 are great examples. 408 not being a lottery, but with only a few tags given out, and add in archery gear the harvest seems not to decrease the old, mature rams in the area that I can see. Same goes for Cadomin.

What about a quota for the areas that get hit hard- like 412? 410 is on a draw, yet the ram numbers and quality has been on the decline for the past 15 years or so. Some feel that 410 suffers because of the increasing general tag harvest in 412 over the past 10 or so years? I believe there is a quota system in the unlimited areas in Montana, not sure if it would work here though?

Based on SRD's definition of a Trophy ram the current system works fine. No rams under 5.5 yrs get killed. The average Mule deer buck in the draw zones that gets killed is younger than 5. Seems from a game management perspective they are achieving their goals. There is a big difference between game management and trophy management.

Good post longdraw and I think it raises the question...what really is the problem. Are too many rams being killed and the population is declining to undersireable levels, are there not enough big rams to satisfy hunters or are unsuccessful hunters just looking for an edge to kill a ram. In this thread I've seen all three identified. I think the problem needs to be identified before we can find a solution...if there really is a problem

Through the grapevine I've heard that F&W thinks too many rams are being harvested and that populations are getting too low. They are considering a five-year wait period because......"It would have the least impact on
recreational opportunity and still provide a reasonable opportunity to harvest a ram."

It seems a strange tact to me as a management strategy. They must figure that only a handful of sheep hunters are actually capable of killing rams. When populations of other species get low, they put them on limited entry draw, not keep the successful hunters out of the field.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Through the grapevine I've heard that F&W thinks too many rams are being harvested and that populations are getting too low. They are considering a five-year wait period because......"It would have the least impact on recreational opportunity and still provide a reasonable opportunity to harvest a ram."

The one thing that SRD does have is very comprehensive harvest data when it comes to Bighorn rams. What WMU, date, hunter, etc; it must all be in a database somewhere?

I would be curious what the ratio of the yearly harvest is comparing first time ram harvest, to multiple harvests by the same hunter?

There must be some data showing guys are killing their second, third, and fourth rams comparing to first time ram killers?

Who knows, but with a 5 yr wait on the table this would be the assumption?

You'd hope they'd taken all that data into account but I'm guessing they haven't...at least in regards to hunters harvesting multiple rams. And really, so what if guys are......should there be a penalty for being good at what you do.

The othe thing worth considering is that these guys on the five-year break won't be able to stay out of the mountains and I'm sure they'll be more than eager to go along with other sheep hunters with tags and help them spill blood. Regardless of whose knowledge put the hunter on the sheep or who pulled the trigger, the ram is still dead. How again will this five-year wait reduce harvest????? Maybe a ban on stepping foot in a 400 zone from August1-October 31.

The other thing that bother me is that if I get drawn in a limited entry area and kill a ram....I'd still have to sit out 5 years in the general areas. Not only will they be penalizing the skilled but they be penalizing the lucky.......tell me again why this is a good thing?

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

The one thing that SRD does have is very comprehensive harvest data when it comes to Bighorn rams. What WMU, date, hunter, etc; it must all be in a database somewhere?

I would be curious what the ratio of the yearly harvest is comparing first time ram harvest, to multiple harvests by the same hunter?

There must be some data showing guys are killing their second, third, and fourth rams comparing to first time ram killers?

Who knows, but with a 5 yr wait on the table this would be the assumption?

You sure bring up a good point - they have a pile of data that you'd like to think gets used as the basis for any changes that may or may not happen.

[Sheepcrazyguy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I totally disagree. In 24 years I've killed three rams but I oppose any legislation that would have kept me out of the field for more than one year after killing a sheep. Just because I have a tag in my pocket doesn't mean I'm going to kill a ram but it does give me the opportunity to be in the field and kill a really big ram if I see one. Going in the field with a camera is most definitely not hunting. Hunting is a blood sport and a camera sheds no blood. I have no interest in killing a ram every two years but I do not want my opportunity to hunt them taken away.

There are a couple basic flaws I see with longer wait times. First, I'm really not convinced there is a problem with guys shooting too many rams but even if there is, and it's a big is, why penalize those that work hard and learn about sheep hunting. I haven't killed many big whitetails so perhaps successful whitetail hunters should sit out five years. Either that or I could get off my lazy butt and hunt them harder. Second, if the guy who killed a ram two years ago is kept out of the field, does F&W really believe that someone else isn't going to come along and kill that same legal ram. I don't see this a reducing harvest at all. It may assist some of the unsuccessful sheep hunters in harvesting a ram but some time and hard work could do that as well.

Why penalize a guy that works hard and is successful?

I have to agree, I've killed 4 rams in 25 years, don't penalize me because I'm successful. It seems this is more about the unsucessful hunters wanting more rams out there for them to shoot. The original post was about short rams being shot. That's all about educating the guy pulling the trigger. I learned how to judge rams, everyone else can too.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by Sheepcrazyguy

I have to agree, I've killed 4 rams in 25 years, don't penalize me because I'm successful. It seems this is more about the unsucessful hunters wanting more rams out there for them to shoot. The original post was about short rams being shot. That's all about educating the guy pulling the trigger. I learned how to judge rams, everyone else can too.

I Think your somewhat right,however,I've never hunted sheep,but i'm proirity 13 for wmu437,so when I do get drawn the chances are good that i'll shoot a Ram that will score 180.Having a wmu like 437 on draw,allows these rams to reach there prime.A wmu like 402 has the good genetics,however due to the high hunting pressure,alot of rams(Not All), are taken right when they become legal.

[Duk Dog]

There have been rumours of sheep hunting going to draw or having longer wait times (for what it is worth 5 years is what I have also heard) for quite some time now. Along with the rumoured changes to the hunt comes a long list of potential reasons (too many sheep shot, too many short sheep shot, poaching etc) for such changes. Have there ever been facts regarding any and all issues related to the sheep hunt provided from SRD? If so what issue(s) have been identified? I quickly skimmed over this thread to see if any info was posted directly related to SRD but I didn't see any.

[Duk Dog]

How much (if any) influence has there been on the results of sheep hunting in Alberta due to the changes in habitat and WMU boundaries? (ie the creation of parks and elimination of previous hunting areas, no controlled burns etc) I ask the question as I'm very much a sheep newbie and don't recall all of the changes that have occurred. Again from quickly skimming this thread I've read a bunch of different reasons for things, but don't think anyone has brought up the changes with habitat and WMU boundaries and their impact on the sheep hunt.

[sheepguide]

Alot of valid points brought up here.
1.So we figured out TJ is just out for blood.

One person brought up the point on it would a 10 year wait for a draw. Well if we new how many tags would be issued we could say but it just depends on how many they put out.

And as far as waiting 5 years after I shoot a ram to kill one is a small price to pay if it increased the quality of hunting. Sheepcrazy you have killed 4 in 25 years, thats roughly a ram every 6.25 years. So im not really sure what the issue is. If you shot one every 5 years you could kill more sheep than you have with possible chances at bigger sheep!!

And comparing Cadomin to anywhere doesnt work as the Cadomin area has special issues, including feed.

SG

And as far as waiting 5 years after I shoot a ram to kill one is a small price to pay if it increased the quality of hunting.

How is the five year wait going to help put bigger sheep on the mountain? I truly don't see how it means any less rams being killed. Is guys killing multiple rams really even a problem other than a few isolated cases? If I see a ram and don't kill it, I'm guessing that someone else will. With outfitter success rates at 50%, obviously they are very skilled at what they do. If they suddenly have less residents to compete with, I'm guessing they'll kill more rams too. I've yet to have anyone explain to me how waiting 5 years after killing a ram will lead to more large sheep. I honestly don't see individual guys killing a lot of small rams other than a few isolated cases.

Sheepcrazy you have killed 4 in 25 years, thats roughly a ram every 6.25 years. So im not really sure what the issue is. If you shot one every 5 years you could kill more sheep than you have with possible chances at bigger sheep!!

Ya but he at least got to hunt those other years...learn more about the areas he hunts sheep and have a tag in his pocket if he crossed paths with that monster. I would say that the vast majority of successful sheep hunters don't kill and average of one sheep every five years but they are still permitted to hunt. Why stop a guy from living his passion because he's good at it?

.So we figured out TJ is just out for blood.

Hardly. I'm in it because I love to hunt sheep. For me, it's not hunting if there isn't a chance of blood being spilled. If it was all about the blood, I'd have far more notches in the stock of my sheep rifle but without the chance of blood being spilled, it definitely isn't hunting. Camera carrying guys in the mountains are photographers!

[Sheepcrazyguy]

Yes I've shot 4 rams in 25 years Sheep Guide but I've turned down a lot since my first one. Alot that were legal but not big enough for me after shooting my first one. I also don't think there should be a B&C ram behind every boulder. That's where all of this seems to be heading IMO. I'll be happy enough spending the rest of my life looking for one and if I never do it won't matter.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Going in the field with a camera is most definitely not hunting. Hunting is a blood sport and a camera sheds no blood. I have no interest in killing a ram every two years but I do not want my opportunity to hunt them taken away.

I think this right here pretty much sums things up. What is hunting then TJ because by the sounds of you hunting is killing. If the main reason of someone heading to the mountains on a sheep hunt is to pull the trigger than that right there is the biggest issue we are facing.
Hunting in our mountains should be for the enjoyment of being out there not if you can kill 5 or 6 rams.
If all these great sheep hunters are so worried about being out there hunting maybe you all should help some guys that havent got the experence that you do. You would still be HUNTING as you stated or is it that then you wouldnt be able to pull the trigger and shed some blood.

The statement about non residents then getting the sheep was covered too when i stated that they should at least drop non resident tags in zones with 8 tags to 4 or what ever. If we get lower tags or more years than non residents need to be adjusted too.

Ive killed two rams for myself in 21 years of sheep hunting(a just legal ram when I was 15 and a 170 when I was 17) and will only ever shoot one more(a big broomed older ram). Thats 18 years of hunting sheep every year without pulling the trigger and have enjoyed every year just as much. And lots of hunts I go on are stricktly to see if I can help a buddy or some one get their first ram. This gives me as much pleasure as me pulling the trigger.

With all these guys saying that they just wanna be able to shoot then we will never come up with possible solutions to improve quality or quanity.
SG

You sure are self righteous aren't you Darcy. Hunting is far from being all about killing but without the possibility of a kill it's not hunting. Read possibility...not requirement. My main reason for heading to the mountains is most certainly not to kill. I've passed dozens of rams over the years as have most sheep hunters I know but they aren't so politically correct as to say that the kill really isn't part of the hunt.

As for helping more hunters, I think I already made that point. Of course these guys will be out there helping hunters and killing rams.....likely rams that they may have passed themselves. So how is that going to reduce the harvest or allow for more older rams. It's not.

If there really is an issue with population or age structure, treat sheep like they do every other species and don't penalize guys that have a passion for the mountains.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

As for helping more hunters, I think I already made that point. Of course these guys will be out there helping hunters and killing rams.....likely rams that they may have passed themselves. So how is that going to reduce the harvest or allow for more older rams. It's not.

don't penalize guys that have a passion for the mountains.

Not being able to kill a ram does nothing to do with penalizing people with a passion for the mountais as thousands go to the mountains every year and never hunt. A passion for the mountains is satisfied by just being out there.

The only reason we brought up the extended period is that there are some guys that do shoot just legal rams every 2 years. maybe this wouldnt be the answer but it would help a few ram grow up.

The only real answer then is to put it on draw and penalize the guys that have never harvested a ram and enjoyed the moment on the mountain that you have 5 or 6 times!!

SG

[ramshorn]

if quality and age of the rams is the issue, why not just make all zones full curl zones and forget about the draws and leave the wait times the same. that should increase the trophy quality as well as the age of the rams being shot.

Originally Posted by ramshorn

if quality and age of the rams is the issue, why not just make all zones full curl zones and forget about the draws and leave the wait times the same. that should increase the trophy quality as well as the age of the rams being shot.

To a point but many rams in southern Alberta will never make full curl despite being very old and of very high trophy quality. But there's no doubt that it would significantly reduce the harvest and increase the age structure.

[ramshorn]

by not being able to harvest all older rams that may not neccesarilly be a bad thing. it would always ensure some older rams were around for breeding. i think there are always some rams in every zone that will never be legal but the southren zones do seem to have more than the rest of the province.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by ramshorn

if quality and age of the rams is the issue, why not just make all zones full curl zones and forget about the draws and leave the wait times the same. that should increase the trophy quality as well as the age of the rams being shot.

that is a very definate possibility. I think it may help.