basement inspection

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Need some advice as I'm out of my depth.

Last year we bought a house. Modular on an ICF basement. Had to remove the boards the original owner (not the person we bought from) had used to finish part of the basement. Once they were down, I saw a large crack and inward buckle of the ICF. I have since had a neighbor tell me that there had been a problem during construction and that they need to use a backhoe to straighten up the basement wall.

Now I'm wondering what sort of lemon I have purchased. I'm guessing I need some sort of engineer to look at the foundation, but I'm unsure where to even start looking for someone.

What sort of firm am I looking for? Any recommendations?

Location wise, Westerose is about an hour from Edmonton, at the southern end of Pigeon Lake.

ARG

[Trochu]

Structural Engineer.

Sounds like a tricky thing though, as being ICF, the entire wall will be covered, and depending on the issue, they may want to see both sides....

[Dewey Cox]

Put an ad on Craiglist that says you're looking for someone to give your downstairs a thorough going over.

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by Trochu

Structural Engineer.

Sounds like a tricky thing though, as being ICF, the entire wall will be covered, and depending on the issue, they may want to see both sides....

Don't you need a structural engineer to approve when constructing an ICF basement ? Been a while. I'm betting they backfilled too early or without considering equipment weight doing it. That would cause the wall to buckle, it would be a major fix now. There will be some kind of water proofing on the outside, which may be a coating or a polyethylene membrane.

[EZM]

If it happened during construction ..... what the heck were all the inspectors who came into the house NOT looking at ...... that's crazy ...

either way ..... I've done a few foundations similar to what you described .... last 2 jobs I used Abalon .... they do some work like this and can arrange to have a structural engineer provide an assessment BUT getting an independent structural prevents getting stuff ordered that is over and above what you need done.

Be prepared for a shocker price ..... excavation, waterproofing and internal restructuring on the last one I did (had a horizontal crack and buckle about 10ft long was $60,000

[sewerrat]

Can you sue?
The sellers didn’t disclose the defect and knew about it?

2 years ago we bought a home with a sinking and cracking basement floor, after we bought it then the owner told us that the waterline broke and undermined underneath the slab , they knew about it but didn’t disclose it and when we viewed the home they had a bed parked overtop of the defect.
We sewed them and the home inspector as they didn’t disclose it and the home inspector didn’t catch it . It is still before the courts.

[ghfalls]

I’ve framed floors and roofs on DIY ICF foundations, and there’s almost always problems. I think it’s when guys try to fill it up too much as they go with the pump instead of going around and around and slowly filling it to the top. I’ve seen cracks in the foam like you describe, but also very bad out of square as well. The one that had the big crack, it happened while pouring, so likely the cement core was fine, and the crack was just filled with a can of spray foam. But I don’t like the sounds of them using a backhoe to straighten it out. That sounds like a recipe for cracked cement core.

[Hunter5425]

Can ICF structures be braced like a common concrete wall or does something more complicated need to be done?

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by Hunter5425

Can ICF structures be braced like a common concrete wall or does something more complicated need to be done?

Yes, but it's not as simple as just dumping concrete in the old plywood forms and hammering on the sides , it's a very specialized technique.

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Originally Posted by EZM

If it happened during construction ..... what the heck were all the inspectors who came into the house NOT looking at ...... that's crazy ...

either way ..... I've done a few foundations similar to what you described .... last 2 jobs I used Abalon .... they do some work like this and can arrange to have a structural engineer provide an assessment BUT getting an independent structural prevents getting stuff ordered that is over and above what you need done.

Be prepared for a shocker price ..... excavation, waterproofing and internal restructuring on the last one I did (had a horizontal crack and buckle about 10ft long was $60,000

There are things that make me think that the inspectors didn't get within a mile of this place.

I figured we would be really lucky if this cost less than $40,000 but that was my wild guess.

Thanks for the recommendation.

ARG

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Originally Posted by sewerrat

Can you sue?
The sellers didn’t disclose the defect and knew about it?

We bought from the second owner. I don't believe thy knew about this as they said the basement was finished when they bought it.

ARG

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Originally Posted by Hunter5425

Can ICF structures be braced like a common concrete wall or does something more complicated need to be done?

I've been doing a lot of reading on ICF lately... they have ICF specific bracing systems.

Here is an example

http://www.plumwall.com/

ARG

[Fish along]

The engineer might suggest building a wood wall inside to brace the concrete from sluffing inwards,which may not be such a big deal. YOU COULD ASK IF THIS WOULD BE ACCEPTALBE.

[Fish along]

Originally Posted by Au revoir, Gopher

I've been doing a lot of reading on ICF lately... they have ICF specific bracing systems.

Here is an example

http://www.plumwall.com/

ARG

This is for pouring only and has nothing to do with the integrity of the wall.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Fish along

The engineer might suggest building a wood wall inside to brace the concrete from sluffing inwards,which may not be such a big deal. YOU COULD ASK IF THIS WOULD BE ACCEPTALBE.

That would be a unicorn based on what the OP said ..... the structural wall you build inside (my current house which I was refering to had to have both) and had this issue HOWEVER the root cause (stabalizing the crack, and waterproofing required the expensive excavation along that wall from the outside. The structural wall you build inside is useless unless you mitigate and repair the issue. Think about water, or about the wall continuing to shift.

There is no easy fix here in most cases. It would have to be pretty mild for this to be the case and since the OP said they used an excavator to push the wall back in - I'd say that unicorn ship has likely sailed.

But - if it's just a crack and a buckle, and water isn't a concern (or further movement) - maybe you would get lucky.

I did do one house back about 15=20 years ago that was a inside waterproofing job only and a 16' long structural - which was pretty inexpensive - but the issue sounds way worse to me.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Au revoir, Gopher

There are things that make me think that the inspectors didn't get within a mile of this place.

I figured we would be really lucky if this cost less than $40,000 but that was my wild guess.

Thanks for the recommendation.

ARG

Yeah - that was my first thought ..... how does something like every subsequent inspector miss this? yikes !!!!

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Originally Posted by Fish along

This is for pouring only and has nothing to do with the integrity of the wall.

Correct, I misinterpreted the question.

ARG

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Originally Posted by EZM

That would be a unicorn based on what the OP said ..... the structural wall you build inside (my current house which I was refering to had to have both) and had this issue HOWEVER the root cause (stabalizing the crack, and waterproofing required the expensive excavation along that wall from the outside. The structural wall you build inside is useless unless you mitigate and repair the issue. Think about water, or about the wall continuing to shift.

There is no easy fix here in most cases. It would have to be pretty mild for this to be the case and since the OP said they used an excavator to push the wall back in - I'd say that unicorn ship has likely sailed.

But - if it's just a crack and a buckle, and water isn't a concern (or further movement) - maybe you would get lucky.

I did do one house back about 15=20 years ago that was a inside waterproofing job only and a 16' long structural - which was pretty inexpensive - but the issue sounds way worse to me.

I'm really of two minds on this. On one hand the house has been standing for 20 years, the floors are still level, no drywall cracking and the doors all swing as they should.

On the other hand, that basement wall is so far out of alignment that there are places where I can stick my finger outside the house going between the top plate of the basement wall and the rim joist!

I can't believe that any modular home builder would agree to set a house on a foundation like that.

ARG