CLAS and Paid Access

[Dewey Cox]

Originally Posted by edmsmith

Paying to rent a blind is still paying for access. It's hilarious that f&w don't agree and would allow this.

It's good for landowners like Dewey who can now decide to profit from their land. Thanks CLAS.

What an evil notion:
Someone wants to profit from the land they own.

Maybe we should all own nothing and we'd be happier...

[edmsmith]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

It doesn't matter if it's illegal or not.
Its standard practice for an outfitter to "hire" the land owner as a guide, put him on the payroll.
It's not illegal for that land owner to only allow hunting by the outfitters clients.
Right or wrong it happens all the time and impossible to hold either party accountable.
We then have different opportunities for outfitters than for the average hunter.
Implementing paid access would open the doors that would be detrimental to the outfitters monopoly they have now.

Assuming renting hunting blinds is now legal... a farmer has no need for an outfitter. Build some blinds. They know what spots are good. Post some photos of the herd of animals that frequent the area and Post the rental of the blind for less then the outfitter.

Sounds like a much better deal for the land owners.

[edmsmith]

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox

What an evil notion:
Someone wants to profit from the land they own.

Maybe we should all own nothing and we'd be happier...

I don't think it's horrible at all. All I care about is that everyone's on the same playing field. Only issue i see is if f&w somehow determined only clas has the right to rent hunting blinds.

I cant see how that would be.

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by edmsmith

I don't think it's horrible at all. All I care about is that everyone's on the same playing field. Only issue i see is if f&w somehow determined only clas has the right to rent hunting blinds.

I cant see how that would be.

You can have an AIRBNB cabin and rent it out. I don't see it as any different.

[elkhunter11]

Of course the next step will be for the landowners to rent out a small cushion, that can be moved anywhere on the property. Then the hunter just carries around the cushion, and hunts where he pleases. So by going from a blind to a cushion, accepting payment for hunting access has effectively been legalized.
I don't begrudge a landowner the right to profit from the use of his land, but if this is allowed, stop pretending that accepting reward for hunting access is illegal.

[edmsmith]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams1

You can have an AIRBNB cabin and rent it out. I don't see it as any different.

Clas is the airbnb of hunting blinds. Not a huge market but I bet it will be profitable.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Of course the next step will be for the landowners to rent out a small cushion, that can be moved anywhere on the property. Then the hunter just carries around the cushion, and hunts where he pleases. So by going from a blind to a cushion, accepting payment for hunting access has effectively been legalized.
I don't begrudge a landowner the right to profit from the use of his land, but if this is allowed, stop pretending that accepting reward for hunting access is illegal.

That's why I asked if they defined what a hunting blind is. Is there a standard? Probably not...

It's sort of hilarious to see this marketed the way it is.

Question is, how much can we make before they change things.

[300magman]

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox

What an evil notion:
Someone wants to profit from the land they own.

Maybe we should all own nothing and we'd be happier...

Da Comrade

Said it many times, the fact paid access is illegal is ridiculous. You can charge for access to spread mud, get water, etc, etc but not to hunt. There is plenty of crown land for those who would choose or cannot pay to hunt private land, or the option of purchasing your own land to hunt on if preferred instead of paying trespass fees. It is truly the only thing that paying for access for is illegal. Also has the fringe benefit of what inevitably leads to greater enforcement of wildlife and trespass infractions as there is now a monetary value associated with the game on the land.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by 300magman

Da Comrade

Said it many times, the fact paid access is illegal is ridiculous. You can charge for access to spread mud, get water, etc, etc but not to hunt. There is plenty of crown land for those who would choose or cannot pay to hunt private land, or the option of purchasing your own land to hunt on if preferred instead of paying trespass fees. It is truly the only thing that paying for access for is illegal. Also has the fringe benefit of what inevitably leads to greater enforcement of wildlife and trespass infractions as there is now a monetary value associated with the game on the land.

Be careful what you wish for. Will come a day when hunter numbers will dip so low because only the wealthy can afford it, animal activists will come against it and a few thousand will be standing on their own while the rest shrug.

[300magman]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Be careful what you wish for. Will come a day when hunter numbers will dip so low because only the wealthy can afford it, animal activists will come against it and a few thousand will be standing on their own while the rest shrug.

I have my land, some of which I purchased strictly for the purposes of hunting because I chose to make an investment which also benefits my passion, and will continue to hunt it until the day I no longer can regardless of what happens. And if I need a change of scenery then I will enjoy the millions of acres of crown land of all varying types and terrains available free of charge to me in this province.....or, do as I have been doing for many years and paying trespass fees in various states for access to private land on self guided hunts in order to maximize my chance at success with limited time. Its amazing what the cost of 4-5 tanks of fuel in trespass fees will get you access to for a few days when thats an option.

I dont think that paid access to hunt private land would cause hunter numbers to dip by any significant degree as long as access to the ample crown land is still available. Europe (which I am assuming you are referencing) is a different beast as there is little to no available public land for hunting. In N.A., that isnt a problem at all, and as is very apparent south of the border where paid access has always existed, hunter numbers are growing, not diminishing in spite of paid access.

I do understand that these things are not an option for everyone, however we are not short on crown land in this province with great opportunity at successful hunts. If it was illegal to charge for access for any other reason, I would advocate that landowners should be able to charge for that as well, this isnt just for hunting, hunting is just the one you cant

[Dewey Cox]

Draw entries need to cost more!
Hunting licenses need to cost more!
Tags need to cost more!


...but don't start letting people charge for access, because then only the wealthy will be able to hunt...

[edmsmith]

I chatted with f&w briefly. Take this with a grain of salt as I'm sure if 10 people ask the same question you might get 8 different answers.

They advised me it would be a really bad idea for me to openly advertise my hunting blinds for rent. She said she wasn't specifically aware of CLAS but others were and they are100% investigating.

It's been an ongoing thing for quite some time(whatever that means).

I asked, if I post my hunting blinds for rent how long would that investigation take if a complaint came in? They had no answer when I asked why the website is still able to openly advertise hunting blinds for rent if it's illegal.

Again at the end she said she's strongly advise against Me advertising my hunting blinds for rent.... which solidifies my main concern on CLAS being able to do as they please but regular people can not.

[Hilgy]

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox

What an evil notion:
Someone wants to profit from the land they own.

Maybe we should all own nothing and we'd be happier...

You're profiting off the wildlife that lives on that land. You do not own that wildlife.
There's a simple solution, don't allow any access at all.

[300magman]

Originally Posted by Hilgy

You're profiting off the wildlife that lives on that land. You do not own that wildlife.
There's a simple solution, don't allow any access at all.

When water trucks come to pull water, you get paid for access to the water. You don’t own the water, so landowners are profiting off the water they do not own as well. What is the difference? Trespass fees compensate the owner for access and use of the land for the opportunity to hunt. Unless we are talking about high fence operations outside of Alberta, then the game has every opportunity to leave should the landowner allow his property to be over pressured. Additionally, depending on the amount of game, there can and are significant costs to the landowner with crop loss. Compensation programs offered by the government often dont come close to truly compensating for damages……damages can be offset through revenue gained by trespass fees, as well as reducing game numbers.

Of course people will say to grant access to hunters in a case like that currently, and I don’t disagree, I don’t think that producers should be eligible for compensation without allowing hunting access in the current system (and believe that it would be money well spent to develop a program to facilitate connection between landowners and hunters like they have in say Wyoming for those cases). However, in the vast majority of cases trespass fees have a contract associated with them, which protects both the landowner and the hunter. Grant access to 15 guys over a season, have them rut up the fields, cut down trees, leave blinds, come back 6 months later to grab a tresstand and drive over a seeded field, etc and you’ll quickly learn that granting access unfortunately often comes with consequences in our current situation. Many are good, some are not. A trespass fee contract makes the accessing party liable for damages outlined within the contract, sets timelines on trail cam removal, stand removal, access periods, etc no different than a surface lease.

Ultimately, the landowner purchased the property……if they are able to profit by granting access for essentially any other activity (heck, I know guys who have a nice hill with excellent mountain views who have been offered and accepted payment to hold weddings on that hill……no facilities built, just simply the view from the crest of the hill which again they don’t own the mountains in the background anymore than they own the elk on the land) then there is no valid reason that access for the purposes of hunting shouldn’t also be eligible for compensation.

[igorot]

Becareful what you wish for.

Profit = Greed = Lawlessness

Unfortunately it is human nature.

[catnthehat]

It has been mentioned about restricted access, Gernany being referenced , and hunting increasing Stateside among other things.

One thing that really bothers me about this whole debacle is the fact that paying to hunt land in Alberta is already happening, just under the table so to speak.
However, if it is made legal, there is the potential for crazy prices to force the common man put.
There is a group of hunters I have met
(through oldgutpile ) that come up tp Alberta tp hunt ducks because it is CHEAPER and thete is more accessible than in there home states of the Carolinas!
Some of the drive the boats up and the rest fly

Think about that for a bit. Cheaper to come up here to hunt ducks because the areas where they are from are all taken up by private land and " hunt clubs".
I do not know what the answer is for private land hunters except for a bunch of guys to get together and buy a parcel of land, the post it so they can hunt it for themselvrs .
Out future does not look bright in that regard......
Cat

[Salavee]

If a Land owner were allowed to rent his land for hunting purposes you can bet they would know the potential renters well. It wouldn't be rented to just anybody. Much like access for hunting is granted now.
I see no problem with landowners managing there own land for any legal purpose they want. . This scenario just might be better for everybody, as not everybody cares for the Outfitters. They can look after themselves, much like they are doing now. If you want private access for hunting, start saving your pennies.
Its happening all over the globe and has been for years. What makes us so special ?

[wind drift]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

It has been mentioned about restricted access, Gernany being referenced , and hunting increasing Stateside among other things.

One thing that really bothers me about this whole debacle is the fact that paying to hunt land in Alberta is already happening, just under the table so to speak.
However, if it is made legal, there is the potential for crazy prices to force the common man put.
There is a group of hunters I have met
(through oldgutpile ) that come up tp Alberta tp hunt ducks because it is CHEAPER and thete is more accessible than in there home states of the Carolinas!
Some of the drive the boats up and the rest fly

Think about that for a bit. Cheaper to come up here to hunt ducks because the areas where they are from are all taken up by private land and " hunt clubs".
I do not know what the answer is for private land hunters except for a bunch of guys to get together and buy a parcel of land, the post it so they can hunt it for themselvrs .
Out future does not look bright in that regard......
Cat

The commodification of wildlife, promoted by the hunting industry, fame seekers and media, leading to increased hunter numbers and financial competition for access and opportunities, is indeed a big issue in much of the US. Matt Rinella (brother of Steve, the Meateater, ironically) has taken up the charge of raising awareness. He has a podcast with the same label as the movement, called “Hunt Quietly”. Because of the amount of crown land we have here, I don’t see it becoming as big an issue in Alberta, but effects are being and will be felt to lesser degrees.

[pikeslayer22]

And if paid legitimately the Turd could get more tax money!

[Dubious]

Has anyone actually paid the 10$ to get on clas and booked hunting access for money, or is this just another strawman?

[edmsmith]

If you are against paid access it might be well worth paying the $10 to clas. Rent a hunting blind. And then report it to fish and wildlife for being able to do so.

Currently they say their Investigating but if they've done nothing in the long period of time it doesn't seem like their doing much.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Dubious

Has anyone actually paid the 10$ to get on clas and booked hunting access for money, or is this just another strawman?

CLAS is like the BBB, extortion by a middle man. Always greasy people trying to make a buck providing nothing.

[300magman]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

There is a group of hunters I have met
(through oldgutpile ) that come up tp Alberta tp hunt ducks because it is CHEAPER and thete is more accessible than in there home states of the Carolinas!
Some of the drive the boats up and the rest fly

Think about that for a bit. Cheaper to come up here to hunt ducks because the areas where they are from are all taken up by private land and " hunt clubs".
I do not know what the answer is for private land hunters except for a bunch of guys to get together and buy a parcel of land, the post it so they can hunt it for themselvrs .
Out future does not look bright in that regard......
Cat

I find that very hard to believe based on the going rates for leases in NC (didn’t check SC)……..and sure as heck a lot of even cheaper ones in Arkansas and areas a lot closer to the Carolina’s. I think it’s a trip they enjoy, likely better hunting up here and they’re exaggerating the pricing a bit. No way that for a week of hunting it is cheaper to ship up boats, fly here, pay for rental accommodations and vehicles and meals than it is to pay a few hundred bucks a guy for a week.

Of course there are exceptionally expensive ones for various reasons, but the vast majority cost less than or equal to the round trip airfare from say Raleigh to Edmonton.

https://www.hlrbo.com/search/results...EaAjn_EALw_wcB

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 300magman

I find that very hard to believe based on the going rates for leases in NC (didn’t check SC)……..and sure as heck a lot of even cheaper ones in Arkansas and areas a lot closer to the Carolina’s. I think it’s a trip they enjoy, likely better hunting up here and they’re exaggerating the pricing a bit. No way that for a week of hunting it is cheaper to ship up boats, fly here, pay for rental accommodations and vehicles and meals than it is to pay a few hundred bucks a guy for a week.

Of course there are exceptionally expensive ones for various reasons, but the vast majority cost less than or equal to the round trip airfare from say Raleigh to Edmonton.

https://www.hlrbo.com/search/results...EaAjn_EALw_wcB

That group has been coming to the Patricia Hotel for well over 20 years and I asked the same question because I Lso found it hard to believe.
The lease fees for the hunt clubs is enormous and the clubs are large so getting shooting time is at a premium.
You can think what you want , but it is true that it is cheaper for them to come up here than to hunt ducks down there.
Same as Antelope and turkey hunting Stateside for us.
Cat

[300magman]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

That group has been coming to the Patricia Hotel for well over 20 years and I asked the same question because I Lso found it hard to believe.
The lease fees for the hunt clubs is enormous and the clubs are large so getting shooting time is at a premium.
You can think what you want , but it is true that it is cheaper for them to come up here than to hunt ducks down there.
Same as Antelope and turkey hunting Stateside for us.
Cat

Hunting clubs in the states need to be looked at like golf courses......there are vastly different types, and prices. I dont deny that there are certain clubs whose fees would far exceed a trip up here to hunt for a week. But the vast majority are very reasonable. Its like do you want to golf at Pebble Beach and pay $750CAD for a round, or are you fine at the average course thats $80/round. Thats the best comparison i can think of for hunt clubs. Ive hunted at a handful in California (which is one of the more expensive states) as a guest with a friend from Fresno....some cost my host $10K/year, some cost him $300/month only charged during open season. Totally depends.

As to the fact that it is cheaper to come here and hunt, if we arent talking about a premiere hunt club, lets just do the math and see what it would cost for a week long trip (and im not doing this to be argumentative with yourself....there is such a misconception here that paid access is the end of hunting for the common man, and it just simply isnt the case when you look at the numbers, and comment of its cheaper to come here for a week than hunt at home simply fuels that misconception, just throwing out actuals for comparison):

Lets look at this property in North Carolina...an average property with 105acres, borders a wildlife refuge so good feeder area for game, with deer, bears, lots of water frontage and proximity to boat launch for waterfowl, etc...https://www.hlrbo.com/listing/index/55063 There are literally hundreds of properties like this in both Carolinas and surrounding states...this is just one leasing site, there are so many more and even more done on forums, just using this as an example that everyone can look at.

This property is $3K USD/year for lease, for up to 10 hunters (I messaged the owner and asked, that is full lease price, not per gun). So if a group of 4 wants to lease that for a year for waterfowl and big game hunting it is $750USD/guy and they cant hunt everyday if they want and be at home, eat and sleep at home, use their own vehicles, etc. Call it $1,050 CAD/guy.

Now, those same 4 guys roundtrip airfare from YYC to Raleigh is $600/guy. Vehicle rental for a week is $90/day x 7 days so $630. Accommodations (2 double rooms at the weekly rate at the Patricia of $30/guy/night) is $840 in accommodations. Meals lets say another $30/day/guy is another $840. Then your talking about shipping boats from the carolinas to Calgary....your going to be way over $2K per direction (here are some recent quotes from the company we have used to ship boats.....https://www.uship.com/ca/cost-to-ship/boats-5/, that doesnt include cross border charges, etc). But lets just call it $2K for fun each direction. So your all in costs for 4 guys to come hunt around St Patricia without taxes is about $4,710CAD or $1175/guy without shipping up boats as mentioned. Add in a boat and your double that plus some. Nevermind luggage fees, airport transportation, firearm handling fees depending on airline, etc, etc.

And that is for a week, not a season. The lease mentioned above gives you waterfowl for the year, plus deer and bear hunting exclusive for your group.

So in reality, I cannot see an angle where it is cheaper to come here than it is to lease and hunt 90%+ of the available leases in the carolinas or any state close to them. If you want to hunt at the same club ex-presidents do, then sure, but the average joe blow on the average piece of property there just isnt an angle when you do the math that its even close.

[Bushrat]

10 hunters on 105 acres, Yikes! I guess your all in stands within almost whispering distance. Far as I'm concerned that would be good for one guy in a blind who is happy hunting the same postage stamp 105 acres. I know it is unlikely all 10 hunters would be on it at the same time. Just not my style of hunting. I'm a wanderer. I might go 40 miles from where I hunted yesterday, I couldn't afford to lease all the places I might want to hunt let alone just one. What a downer that would be.

I don't want to see Alberta end up like the states, I'd more than likely give up and so would a lot of others.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

10 hunters on 105 acres, Yikes! I guess your all in stands within almost whispering distance. Far as I'm concerned that would be good for one guy in a blind who is happy hunting the same postage stamp 105 acres. I know it is unlikely all 10 hunters would be on it at the same time. Just not my style of hunting. I'm a wanderer. I might go 40 miles from where I hunted yesterday, I couldn't afford to lease all the places I might want to hunt let alone just one. What a downer that would be.

I don't want to see Alberta end up like the states, I'd more than likely give up and so would a lot of others.

It's the squeeze play.

[Smoky buck]

I have picked up a lot of customers in the US in the last 6 months and have had a lot of talks regarding hunting. Not one of them views hunting leases as a positive and all are envious of what we have here. All of them have stories of having to share a lease with some special people just to be able to afford a lease or loosing leases to someone out bidding at renewal time.

Even in BC where it’s legal I have seen paid access effect waterfowl on private property in the lower mainland. I also know of areas that yes the outfitters have tied up access. One thing is for sure it didn’t increase access opportunities either. It’s way easier to get permission in Alberta

I prefer to stick to large tracts of public land so this has minimal impact on me but I can’t say I see any benefit to paid hunting access for hunters.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

I have picked up a lot of customers in the US in the last 6 months and have had a lot of talks regarding hunting. Not one of them views hunting leases as a positive and all are envious of what we have here. All of them have stories of having to share a lease with some special people just to be able to afford a lease or loosing leases to someone out bidding at renewal time.

Even in BC where it’s legal I have seen paid access effect waterfowl on private property in the lower mainland. I also know of areas that yes the outfitters have tied up access. One thing is for sure it didn’t increase access opportunities either. It’s way easier to get permission in Alberta

I prefer to stick to large tracts of public land so this has minimal impact on me but I can’t say I see any benefit to paid hunting access for hunters.

Definitely a benefit to those paying, restricting access is always good for those that have it.Same reason folks by land to hunt, restrict access. There are entire facebook pages on how to buy land and draw deer from around the area.

[300magman]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

10 hunters on 105 acres, Yikes! I guess your all in stands within almost whispering distance. Far as I'm concerned that would be good for one guy in a blind who is happy hunting the same postage stamp 105 acres. I know it is unlikely all 10 hunters would be on it at the same time. Just not my style of hunting. I'm a wanderer. I might go 40 miles from where I hunted yesterday, I couldn't afford to lease all the places I might want to hunt let alone just one. What a downer that would be.

I don't want to see Alberta end up like the states, I'd more than likely give up and so would a lot of others.

The discussion was regarding waterfowl hunting. They take a max of 10 hunters, clearly for big game would likely be one or 2 people. Couldn’t agree more, 10 guys on 105 acres isn’t what anyone is looking for. The example piece I posted was actively related to the discussion of waterfowl hunting, and does contain deer/bear.

And that’s great you have the ability to hunt everywhere…..what your missing is while you could afford to lease that much, every single person who you are hunting on has paid money for the land, management of the land, taxes, etc. So while you get the opportunity without paying, the landowners are. Why not take it a step further……I’d love to stay a bunch of different places and travel all over, how about I knock on doors and see who’ll let me stay in a room in their house for free? Will you? Oh wait, AirBnB and VRBO exist for that because we wouldn’t expect people to allow others to stay in their house without compensation.

[300magman]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

I have picked up a lot of customers in the US in the last 6 months and have had a lot of talks regarding hunting. Not one of them views hunting leases as a positive and all are envious of what we have here. All of them have stories of having to share a lease with some special people just to be able to afford a lease or loosing leases to someone out bidding at renewal time.

Even in BC where it’s legal I have seen paid access effect waterfowl on private property in the lower mainland. I also know of areas that yes the outfitters have tied up access. One thing is for sure it didn’t increase access opportunities either. It’s way easier to get permission in Alberta

I prefer to stick to large tracts of public land so this has minimal impact on me but I can’t say I see any benefit to paid hunting access for hunters.

Completely depends who you talk to. Speak to landowners, they like it. Speak to many, many people with good leases and they wouldn’t change the fact it is like theirs for anything in the world. I also have a lot of Americans who I deal with professionally and personally, and they couldn’t imagine having a landowner give permission to multiple people, have someone you don’t know who has permission hunting your spot, walking through the field you’ve set up on 10 min before legal, etc. Of course some people have exclusive permission in Alberta and that’s the best of everything, you get a great experience off the $$ spent by someone else to purchase and manage the land. However, more often than not permission isn’t exclusive, whereas with a lease it is yours and only yours.

Never ceases to amaze me how scared people are of it. Hunting access is literally the ONLY thing you cannot charge for access for. How is that fair to landowners? Truly, we have millions of square km of public land for people who to hunt if it bothers them. Its ludacris that laws prevent landowners from making money on this one specific activity. I know you hunt crown mainly, and that’s exactly what I’m saying……you kill some hammer deer, have excellent hunts and not a damn thing would change with that whether I could charge people or not to hunt my land. And that opportunity exists for everyone.