Alberta Power Grid Alert

[Dean2]

This is what good political leadership looks like. It is also a clear demonstration of Albertans stepping up when asked, like they always do. The Alert system let people know there was a big issue and most of us responded by shutting off every electrical thing we could. Instant positive result. Now to convince the cities to shut off street lamps at temps below -20 and the large towers to shut off their lamps when it is this cold and we can start to free up some capacity.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Fact is that the anti coal/gas/oil agenda has put us in this situation, and fact, is that the same agenda will be our largest hurdle in finding a solution to get out of this situation. Fact is that solar/wind generation aren't working in this situation. Fact, is that it is going to take a serious situation to get the anti oil/gas/coal agenda promoters to even admit that their agenda is causing this situation, and fact is that it will take serious consequences to get them to relent enough to resolve this situation.

The fact is the populous are gullible and very un educated towards technical or engineering based issues……

Address the education aspect and the rest will align.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dean2

This is what good political leadership looks like. It is also a clear demonstration of Albertans stepping up when asked, like they always do. The Alert system let people know there was a big issue and most of us responded by shutting off every electrical thing we could. Instant positive result. Now to convince the cities to shut off street lamps at temps below -20 and the large towers to shut off their lamps when it is this cold and we can start to free up some capacity.

While the load reduction may have been partly due to people hearing the emergency warning, that warning also came out during the normal peak load period, so we would expect to see the load fall, as people finished their cooking , and keep falling, as people shut down electrical loads, and went to sleep. We will see what happens from 5 to 8 today.

[58thecat]

Why....because people don’t want to sit in the dark around a candle...eating bread and sipping cold water....there are some underlying issues at hand if we can’t have power during a cold snap.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

While the load reduction may have been partly due to people hearing the emergency warning, that warning also came out during the normal peak load period, so we would expect to see the load fall, as people finished their cooking , and keep falling, as people shut down electrical loads, and went to sleep. We will see what happens from 5 to 8 today.

You just absolutely refuse to see the positive in anything lately. The load dropped 150MW in MINUTES after the notification. That is NOT just luck or timing.

[artie]

On the lighter side making a fool of myself
I once went to the landfill at Cowely
None of the windmills were turning so I asked the lady at the office if the windmills were all down for maintenance
she said no it's an anomoly
me not kowning wha an anomoly was said so what" that
she said there is no wind. ha

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dean2

You just absolutely refuse to see the positive in anything lately. The load dropped 150MW in MINUTES after the notification. That is NOT just luck or timing.

As I posted, the load may have dropped "partly" because of that notification, and as I also posted, tonight will show us if we end up where we were last evening, or if the notification makes people think for longer than an hour or two.

[densa44]

Rapid growth in Alberta with no thought to what if anything will limit the growth, is in the background. If the solution is non renewable resources then then end is in sight. No one mentions nuclear any more, maybe that's a good thing but there should be a plan.

Rotating blackouts? Is that a good idea? We don't have mighty rivers to fall back on, for hydro power. What is the long range plan? What will be the population of Alberta in 10 years, 6,8, 10 million people?

We need to do better than this.

[Rvsask]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Shutting down generation was definitely a huge factor in Alberta being in this situation, but you are correct, with the woke/green fanatics opposing coal/gas and nuclear generation, we have no reliable alternatives in Alberta, so what do we do in the future?

I do not know what you do in the future elk. There are loads of ideas out there from both sides of a couple major trending topics out there on X. “Rachelle Notley” and “Danielle Smith is unfit to lead” will both bombard you with all sorts of arguments. As for me to know what is best, well I don’t.

Overload in both extreme heat and extreme cold tells me something needs to be done though that is more than finger pointing.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Rvsask

I do not know what you do in the future elk. There are loads of ideas out there from both sides of a couple major trending topics out there on X. “Rachelle Notley” and “Danielle Smith is unfit to lead” will both bombard you with all sorts of arguments. As for me to know what is best, well I don’t.

Overload in both extreme heat and extreme cold tells me something needs to be done though that is more than finger pointing.

Solar and wind generation are the latest greatest green ideas, but they obviously don't work in the current situation. So where do we go from here, knowing that we need to do something very soon. While the situation is critical now, it will soon become even more critical, as our federal government forces us to depend more and more on electricity, and less on gas/oil.

[DOGFISH]

Originally Posted by bobjoe

I don’t normally respond to these type of posts but I am genuinely surprised that we are only producing 2.9% of the capacity on wind. I wasn’t expecting a lot but less that than 3% I was thinking it would produce in the 10-15% range. I knew solar was less than useless but now I know wind is truly useless….

2.9 % wind produced electricity but they shut the wind mills down @ -30 due to the materials being brittle from my understanding? I have no faith in our leaders. On the side of using coal we aren't allowed to burn it in Canada but we can mine it and ship it over to china to make steel where the environmental laws are a little lacking. Lol

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by densa44

Rapid growth in Alberta with no thought to what if anything will limit the growth, is in the background. If the solution is non renewable resources then then end is in sight. No one mentions nuclear any more, maybe that's a good thing but there should be a plan.

Rotating blackouts? Is that a good idea? We don't have mighty rivers to fall back on, for hydro power. What is the long range plan? What will be the population of Alberta in 10 years, 6,8, 10 million people?

We need to do better than this.

Ya like 5 years ago…. The crisis is staring us right in the face, and now what!

[bessiedog]

Sigh…. Here I go…

Doncha ya guys think that frivolous consumption isn’t just a wee bit of the problem…?


I don’t see an unsolvable crisis here….. yes education is needed… maybe tiny regulation bits on office towers n such..0

The graph drop clearly demonstrates that we could buy us a 5 to 10 year window to improve infrastructure and develop a proper energy response ( green, nuclear or whatever) just by educating folks and pushing electric timers…?

I’m sure sick of the finger pointing games…it
How bout we do what Albertans are famous for..? Common sense solves..



I’m bored…. No one’s getting up to chase da elks…. Dammit

[sns2]

Originally Posted by bobjoe

I don’t normally respond to these type of posts but I am genuinely surprised that we are only producing 2.9% of the capacity on wind. I wasn’t expecting a lot but less that than 3% I was thinking it would produce in the 10-15% range. I knew solar was less than useless but now I know wind is truly useless….

Bob, you don’t respond to any kind of posts. LOL.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Sigh…. Here I go…

Doncha ya guys think that frivolous consumption isn’t just a wee bit of the problem…?


I don’t see an unsolvable crisis here….. yes education is needed… maybe tiny regulation bits on office towers n such..0

The graph drop clearly demonstrates that we could buy us a 5 to 10 year window to improve infrastructure and develop a proper energy response ( green, nuclear or whatever) just by educating folks and pushing electric timers…?

I’m sure sick of the finger pointing games…it
How bout we do what Albertans are famous for..? Common sense solves..



I’m bored…. No one’s getting up to chase da elks…. Dammit

Sigh. Albertans fault. Give your head a shake, Bessie. Just one question, has generation kept pace with immigration?

[Smokinyotes]

Common sense would have been to keep the coal plants operating until a practical alternative was in place and the infrastructure to support it along with limiting immigration. If I was running this gong show there wouldn’t be any electric vehicles sold in the province until we have a sustainable energy system in place which we are many years away from having.

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by sns2

Sigh. Albertans fault. Give your head a shake, Bessie. Just one question, has generation kept pace with immigration?

Yes… all I wanted to do was blame Albertans…. Give your head a shakier shake. That’s not my intent bunyak.

No it certainly has not Shayne…. Read my post. Step one.. work on limiting consumption.

We can’t ‘deimmigrate’ (we could stop the damn ‘come to Alberta’ commercials that have been running for 4
Years now…

That graph drop demonstrated huge potential to ‘buy us time’

We need 5 to 10 years to address this.

The folks ain’t gonna move away.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Sigh…. Here I go…

Doncha ya guys think that frivolous consumption isn’t just a wee bit of the problem…?

The graph drop clearly demonstrates that we could buy us a 5 to 10 year window to improve infrastructure and develop a proper energy response ( green, nuclear or whatever) just by educating folks and pushing electric timers…?

I’m sure sick of the finger pointing games…
How bout we do what Albertans are famous for..? Common sense solves..

The graph shows a one time snapshot, we don't know if people shut down frivolous consumption, or if they used the microwave instead of the stove/oven for one night, or postponed doing laundry or dishes last night, and will do them tonight instead. Only by looking at the consumption levels long term will we know what kind of saving are available. What we do know, is that transitioning to electric vehicles will greatly increase the demand, as will transitioning to electric heat. We also know that new sources of power generation take years of planning and then years of construction, so that won't help us to get through situations like we are currently in, and it won't help us to power all of the electric vehicles and electric heating that the federal government is trying to force on us. Common sense would have been to have a replacement for the coal plants before they were shut down, but that ship has sailed., so here we are.

Common sense would have been to keep the coal plants operating until a practical alternative was in place and the infrastructure to support it along with limiting immigration. If I was running this gong show there wouldn’t be any electric vehicles sold in the province until we have a sustainable energy system in place which we are many years away from having.

Bingo, we have a winner.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by DOGFISH

2.9 % wind produced electricity but they shut the wind mills down @ -30 due to the materials being brittle from my understanding? I have no faith in our leaders. On the side of using coal we aren't allowed to burn it in Canada but we can mine it and ship it over to china to make steel where the environmental laws are a little lacking. Lol

Saskatchewan is burning coal as we speak and making electricity. Even pushing it to Alberta and the US.
We have coal! Get another couple generating stations in the works and burn the damn stuff. Getting pretty tired of this green push and those that believe in it. Seems the average IQ is dropping quickly

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Sigh…. Here I go…

Doncha ya guys think that frivolous consumption isn’t just a wee bit of the problem…?


I don’t see an unsolvable crisis here….. yes education is needed… maybe tiny regulation bits on office towers n such..0

The graph drop clearly demonstrates that we could buy us a 5 to 10 year window to improve infrastructure and develop a proper energy response ( green, nuclear or whatever) just by educating folks and pushing electric timers…?

I’m sure sick of the finger pointing games…it
How bout we do what Albertans are famous for..? Common sense solves..



I’m bored…. No one’s getting up to chase da elks…. Dammit

Bessie, what’s un presidented is the alert came on a Saturday night. Previous to last night most of the crunches on energy came on weekdays when everyone came home from work……

The fact remains that putting all our faith in wind and solar as a viable alternative to base load support is a farce!

Imagine for just one minute what would have happened if one of Genasee’s generators tripped off due to a boiler leak, or if the BC tie line went down due to an insulator failure….. then what?
You have to have a suitable reserve for loss of about 500 Mega Watts of load, and if you don’t then what?
Ohh ah, we shed 150 Mega Watts of load due to folks un plugging stuff, that’s a drop in the bucket when you’re dealing with 11000 Mega Watts of load commitment.(that’s 1.3% of the load!)

The stark reality is that bad decisions were made based on feel good pie in the sky decisions, to chase rainbows and unicorn turds. Our electrical grid is maxed out, and there’s no overnight solution available….. when the lights go out and your plumbing freezes, then the wailing will happen.
What is unsustainable is the green dream, it’s a farce in our climate, and so many have been hood winked.

[Cageyc]

We’re paying a premium price on substandard service, the population growth in Alberta far exceeds what the province can supply. Now the fairy tale thinking feds are just adding to the problem with al of their illogical ideas regarding electricity.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Saskatchewan is burning coal as we speak and making electricity. Even pushing it to Alberta and the US.
We have coal! Get another couple generating stations in the works and burn the damn stuff. Getting pretty tired of this green push and those that believe in it. Seems the average IQ is dropping quickly

Was all of the equipment mothballed or destroyed at the coal plants that were shut down. If they were mothballed, the quickest solution may be to commission what they can, until we have a replacement. If the ndp had them destroyed to prevent this from being an option, then that idea won't work.

The stark reality is that bad decisions were made based on feel good pie in the sky decisions, to chase rainbows and unicorn turds. Our electrical grid is maxed out, and there’s no overnight solution available….. when the lights go out and your plumbing freezes, then the wailing will happen.
What is unsustainable is the green dream, it’s a farce in our climate, and so many have been hood winked.

And those bad decisions are being expanded on, by forcing us to go with electric vehicles, and by pushing electric heat. And they are still pushing wind power that is totally useless due to the current temperature.

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Common sense would have been to keep the coal plants operating until a practical alternative was in place and the infrastructure to support it along with limiting immigration. If I was running this gong show there wouldn’t be any electric vehicles sold in the province until we have a sustainable energy system in place which we are many years away from having.

Pretty sure you know that most govt and folks are reactive to situations… any technology will take time to get good and it’s going to need to be in The market for market forces to grab hold and develop. We all tolerated Windows 98 and Windows ‘95…. Now we have decent software mostly… but yes ‘them damn computers’ make great convenient scapegoats.

Solar, wind, nuclear (thorium molten salt), and battery techs will need time ….

Moderate consumption via informed decisions.. graph
Shows it’s an easy mini solve.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Pretty sure you know that most govt and folks are reactive to situations… any technology will take time to get good and it’s going to need to be in The market for market forces to grab hold and develop. We all tolerated Windows 98 and Windows ‘95…. Now we have decent software mostly… but yes ‘them damn computers’ make great convenient scapegoats.

Solar, wind, nuclear (thorium molten salt), and battery techs will need time ….

Moderate consumption via informed decisions.. graph
Shows it’s an easy mini solve.

This is what you need to pay attention to. Notice that the panic unplugging only resulted in a 1.3% drop in load. And some of that unplugging was likely deferring loads, not eliminating the loads.

Imagine for just one minute what would have happened if one of Genasee’s generators tripped off due to a boiler leak, or if the BC tie line went down due to an insulator failure….. then what?
You have to have a suitable reserve for loss of about 500 Mega Watts of load, and if you don’t then what?
Ohh ah, we shed 150 Mega Watts of load due to folks un plugging stuff, that’s a drop in the bucket when you’re dealing with 11000 Mega Watts of load commitment.(that’s 1.3% of the load!)

[hogie]

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...ng-solar-power

An article from 2 years ago when we had an extreme cold period.

Nuclear is the only option in my opinion. Not a fan of damming rivers, doesn't seem environment friendly to me. Maybe there is better way to use coal that is cleaner?

[bessiedog]

Oh fer frack sakes……

Can we NOT turn this is to a ‘EV’s are EVil discussion…? Cause that’s NOT what I’m taking about.

We have a HUGE amount of people moved and moving here…. We need time…. And deliberate concentrated movement to increase electrical infrastructure and energy creating capacity..
Reduce consumption buys, us, time.

We need to look at ALL solutions.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Was all of the equipment mothballed or destroyed at the coal plants that were shut down. If they were mothballed, the quickest solution may be to commission what they can, until we have a replacement. If the ndp had them destroyed to prevent this from being an option, then that idea won't work.

There were only 4 units quasi operational at Sundance when the coal sedation occurred.

3 were slated for coal to gas conversion, and then only 2 were converted, then only 1 was commissioned. The heat rate to run the conversion (Sun 6) is atrocious and it’s pretty much shuttered. 1 unit at Keephills is off the books too.

The boilers at Sundance were on their last legs from what I’ve heard, the mine is nearly shutdown, and the great majority of the 700 workers were let go and have gone to other endeavours. The fact that you need 1st and 2nd class steam engineers with experience to run such boilers means there’s a lagging window to even get a unit back up and running, let alone connected to the grid, even if you wanted, the licensing and testing required to do so is arduous at best.

It ain’t a case of changing the oil and filters and hitting the start button………

[sns2]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Yes… all I wanted to do was blame Albertans…. Give your head a shakier shake. That’s not my intent bunyak.

No it certainly has not Shayne…. Read my post. Step one.. work on limiting consumption.

We can’t ‘deimmigrate’ (we could stop the damn ‘come to Alberta’ commercials that have been running for 4
Years now…

That graph drop demonstrated huge potential to ‘buy us time’

We need 5 to 10 years to address this.

The folks ain’t gonna move away.

Frivolous consumption. Our fault again. Your words. I had on one tv and two cars plugged in. Bad Shane. Bad Shane.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Oh fer frack sakes……

Can we NOT turn this is to a ‘EV’s are EVil discussion…? Cause that’s NOT what I’m taking about.

We have a HUGE amount of people moved and moving here…. We need time…. And deliberate concentrated movement to increase electrical infrastructure and energy creating capacity..
Reduce consumption buys, us, time.

We need to look at ALL solutions.

So how do we reduce consumption with a growing population, and a federal government forcing us to become more dependent on electricity? It takes a few years to plan a generating station. Then it takes a few years to build it, so even if we start immediately, with current technology, we are likely 6-8 years from being able to build a single facility. And that is without a federal government interfering with approvals, because we want to use gas or nuclear technology. Realistically, we are likely looking at 8-10 years to build a gas powdered generating station, and that would be our quickest option.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dick284

There were only 4 units quasi operational at Sundance when the coal sedation occurred.

3 were slated for coal to gas conversion, and then only 2 were converted, then only 1 was commissioned. The heat rate to run the conversion (Sun 6) is atrocious and it’s pretty much shuttered. 1 unit at Keephills is off the books too.

The boilers at Sundance were on their last legs from what I’ve heard, the mine is nearly shutdown, and the great majority of the 700 workers were let go and have gone to other endeavours. The fact that you need 1st and 2nd class steam engineers with experience to run such boilers means there’s a lagging window to even get a unit back up and running, let alone connected to the grid, even if you wanted, the licensing and testing required to do so is arduous at best.

It ain’t a case of changing the oil and filters and hitting the start button………

I realize that, but would it be quicker than planning and building a new plant from scratch?