Illegally stocked perch

[oagie]

Really people. Can you not express your opinions on a matter without being insulting.

I see it time and time again on this forum. Maybe before you hit submit, pretend the person your responding too is sitting across the table.

I don't know why people on this forum have a lack of respect for one another. It's truly frustrating.

[Geezle]

Originally Posted by TJG

If u hv a guard at the gate to this trout heaven, the only way someone
could plant perch in there would be to live there.
[If you believe illegally stocking perch in a pot hole trout lake is a good thing...then get your head out of your....]
Don't put words in my mouth or you'll find my boot up ur arse.
Go somewhere else to practice your amateur biology.

I don't care who it's directed at or why...that wasn't necessary.

[Tony_S]

Originally Posted by TJG

Don't put words in my mouth or you'll find my boot up ur arse.

Who can argue with intellect like that....if all else fails...threaten to kick their ass...

Go somewhere else to practice your amateur biology.

If memory serves me, he IS, or at the very least WAS, a 'professional' fisheries biologist in Alberta.

Does that make everything he says Gospel...nope! But, it DEFINITELY qualifies, and quantifies his 'opinion' more so than most..

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Wulfespirit

The lakes I'm referring to were not stocked with walleye. In the 90s and prior, they had good quality populations of walleye and pike (great size ranges with some trophy class ones around). When SRD dropped the bomb on walleye and pike harvesting, their numbers noticably increased within a few years while the size ranges narrowed and most started to fall into the 'medium' size category. As this was going on, there was a steady drop in perch numbers that seemed to be almost perfectly proportional to the increase in predators. By the time Y2K rolled around, you started having many days when you could hammer a medium pike or walleye on every cast while finding perch was getting quite difficult. Fast forward to now and the perch on these lakes are nearly gone while predator numbers are still insanely high and seemingly suffer from limited growth rates.

This has happened on -four- lakes I used to (and still do to some extent) fish very regularly. Given that the pattern was pretty much identical on all four, I don't know how many other factors I'd buy into. If you're curious about the lakes, feel free to PM me.. but speaking with others, the -same- pattern has emerged on other lakes too (that I don't fish).

I would think test netting would be required to see if there is the same number of larger fish but the ensuing year classes are dominant and therefore you just catch more smaller ones cause they are around in greater numbers. Kind of like putting a red ball in a box with a blue ball. You have a great chance of grabbing a red ball. Put the same red ball in a box with 100 blue balls...very unlikely you will see the red ball but the same numbers are there.

The premise that all the large fish are gone is not yet justified in the example you gave. In fact their should be on average a larger year class moving through the system.

I think you are suggesting there could be food limitation on these fish. It is possible especially if the prey fish are still being harvested. Whitefish, perch and suckers are critical to the growth rates and maximum size achievable. In fact nature has designed the reproductive timings to maximize value for the predators. For instance, pike spawn first, hatch and start looking for food. White suckers spawn after pike and walleye. When they finally hatch they are the perfect sized food forage for them hungry predators. The prey have tons of babies which primarily feed the predators. That is why in a natural lake...a eight in perch will have 30,000 eggs but may only 300 grow bigger than 4 inches. The remainder get eaten. As they get bigger they become less and less susceptible to predation.

[genoel]

Anyone who believes that a lake full of 4 inch perch is good for anything is delusional. As for the damage done to the perch populations in the lakes where walleye have been protected, it would be very interesting to completely close some of them to angling for a few years and see what would happen. It is amazing how mother nature seems to sort things out all by herself if all of us "intelligent" life forms would stop interfering with the natural order of things. There is a very fine line when it comes to protecting one species at the expense of another. I would never promote a complete ban on harvesting any fish by any means, but I do believe that fish populations would eventually balance out themselves if left alone.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom55

This is the legend of the pond: 2 boys got on their bicycles and peddled out to an unnamed lake and caught a mess o' perch. Neither boy had a truck load of electronic gear or pricey G.Loomis rods. Not bothering with shore lunch (they had to get home for supper) they peddled to their community and decided that the bike ride out to their fabulous (mythical) fishing hole in southern Alberta was too long and besides, they were always late for supper.
"Aha" said the older boy. "Let's secretly dump this pail of tiny perch that survived a 6 hour bicycle ride into Kevin's private lake and we can stop this 12 hour marathon every time we need a perch feed". The younger boy, on his way to becoming a marine biologist and knowing that this pail of fish would soon number in the billions, disagreed but he was too small to have his way and, too late, the bucket of perch went into Dave's pond and now every sun dance fisher person hates kids and anyone else who disagrees with Kevin.
But what the hay? Who else has a private fish factory right outside their bedroom window? Or a 'cause celibre' to go on (and on) about?
The boys? They went on to become accomplished trouble-makers and gave up on fishing entirely. Too many grown-ups. That's the way I heard it anyway.
"Did I say that?I didn't mean it.I'm just goofing around, that's all!"
BTW. Happy New Year everyone. Tight lines and happy trails.

Your post is so hard to read... Please spell check and improve organization so it does not look like a 3 year old posted.

Anyways...at least this post is showing improved maturity than your nasty cursing PM/'s...not by much though.

Nice to see you can add value to a discussion.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by C@RN@GE

You've just explained what stunting is in maybe a small pond with a very limited food source. You got to realize hassie has huge shallow forge base. It takes more then a couple generations to stunt out a lake and use up all the lake resources. I’m not staying it wouldn’t of stunted eventually. But that was still years away from happening.

That is why very clearly based upon the population make up as stated by anyone that has fished there that their are only 4-6 inchers left in any number.

HPF...we have chatted about this many times. Please refer to earlier discussions we had. If the numbers of perch were not so high, the sizes so indicative then there would be doubt. As we showed down here, removing a large number of perch from a very small lake increased the average size. As perch are shown to grow very well with lots of food...even harvesting all the big ones will just allow a whole new crop to grow big year after year. That does not happen as there are just so many millions of perch you can not control them and therefore they over populate, reach the point of critical carrying capacity and stunt.

Simple...end of story. There is no doubt.

The provincial government should really start rearing some tiger trout to combat this issue. In suitable lakes, aggresive predators could really thin out the little buggers. Plus tigers would still provide a trout fishery.

[Wulfespirit]

Originally Posted by genoel

Anyone who believes that a lake full of 4 inch perch is good for anything is delusional. As for the damage done to the perch populations in the lakes where walleye have been protected, it would be very interesting to completely close some of them to angling for a few years and see what would happen. It is amazing how mother nature seems to sort things out all by herself if all of us "intelligent" life forms would stop interfering with the natural order of things. There is a very fine line when it comes to protecting one species at the expense of another. I would never promote a complete ban on harvesting any fish by any means, but I do believe that fish populations would eventually balance out themselves if left alone.

You might very well be right but I suspect it'd take significantly longer than a few years.

I'd prefer SRD be proactive in trying to balance the populations instead of making walleye the only fish that matters.

[oagie]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Your post is so hard to read... Please spell check and improve organization so it does not look like a 3 year old posted.

Anyways...at least this post is showing improved maturity than your nasty cursing PM/'s...not by much though.

Nice to see you can add value to a discussion.

Seriously, stop with the petty comments.

[Wulfespirit]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I would think test netting would be required to see if there is the same number of larger fish but the ensuing year classes are dominant and therefore you just catch more smaller ones cause they are around in greater numbers. Kind of like putting a red ball in a box with a blue ball. You have a great chance of grabbing a red ball. Put the same red ball in a box with 100 blue balls...very unlikely you will see the red ball but the same numbers are there.

The premise that all the large fish are gone is not yet justified in the example you gave. In fact their should be on average a larger year class moving through the system.

I think you are suggesting there could be food limitation on these fish. It is possible especially if the prey fish are still being harvested. Whitefish, perch and suckers are critical to the growth rates and maximum size achievable. In fact nature has designed the reproductive timings to maximize value for the predators. For instance, pike spawn first, hatch and start looking for food. White suckers spawn after pike and walleye. When they finally hatch they are the perfect sized food forage for them hungry predators. The prey have tons of babies which primarily feed the predators. That is why in a natural lake...a eight in perch will have 30,000 eggs but may only 300 grow bigger than 4 inches. The remainder get eaten. As they get bigger they become less and less susceptible to predation.

There are indeed a few bigger ones left in 3 out of 4 of the lakes I speak of. My concern was mostly that perch populations in those lakes has plummeted severely. However, yes, my secondary concern is the slow growth rates on the walleye... even on a couple of the lakes that now see relatively light fishing pressure, the walleye don't seem to be growing out of that 35 to 45cm range.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by TJG

If u hv a guard at the gate to this trout heaven, the only way someone
could plant perch in there would be to live there.
[If you believe illegally stocking perch in a pot hole trout lake is a good thing...then get your head out of your....]
Don't put words in my mouth or you'll find my boot up ur arse.
Go somewhere else to practice your amateur biology.

Yes...TJG. The assumption is a resident put it in. Local rumor has it that a couple of 14 year old came back with Mom and Dad from Gull or some such and put a bucket of them in. Clearly they were totally ignorant of the consequences and will now never admit what they did.

As per putting words into your mouth...you are still articulating your points poorly.

My post...

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

This is a standard read to see what the problem is in Alberta

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPr...djp_Sept24.pdf

Illegal perch introductions are an ongoing problem and concern.

Cheers

Sun

Your posted response...

Originally Posted by TJG

People like Sundance and Don Andersen in RMH are in favor
of killing fish for the betterment of trout fishing. Yes it’s wrong
for the bucket bios to be doing this, but who gives anyone the
right to kill millions of fish for the sake of a few trout.
What if all the walleye they stock in Sylvan, Pigeon, PCR, ect, were
endangered by some mysteriously introduced competitor for forage,
do you kill a lake that may include trout, as well as other fish?
The bios that are looking after our lakes needed to find some
better answers and stop listening to organizations like Trout Unlimited,
and trout fisherman ****ed about their local lakes.
Now, I know this is going to start a poo storm, but I need to say my
peace and vent for the few that r thinking it but wont speak.

As we are talking about illegal introductions of perch in put and take trout lakes and you appear to be arguing against...it puts you in favor of putting perch in there. If this was not your intended debate point then by all means change your position accordingly.

Otherwise, either you are missing the topic by a mile or are trolling to change the topic.

Either way you are wrong on so many fisheries management fundamentals that you might just want to do a bit more research and read that SRD position paper again.

Cheers

Sun

P.S. Just to clarify for you again. No one is advocating poisoning Pigeon Lake to stock rainbows

[Paul C]

I ran into a farmer a couple of years ago and he said he had some goldfish and coy in his small pond that he uses to water the cattle.
He told me that sometimes the eggs will get attached to duck and geese feathers. I was surprised to see fish about three inches long swimming in his pond. I fished this past year up at Dolberg and I saw very small goldfish swimming near the dock.
Cheers

[fluxcore]

P.S. Just to clarify for you again. No one is advocating poisoning Pigeon Lake to stock rainbows [/QUOTE]

[Paul C]

When you point a finger at somebody you are pointing three at yourself.

[Geezle]

Wow...I left to go for breakfast, and this thread went right sideways

[Paul C]

Originally Posted by Geezle

Wow...I left to go for breakfast, and this thread went right sideways

side ways, upside down, left to right, backwards, right and wrong. Having baileys in the coffee makes it more entertaining.

[Geezle]

So what you're telling me is that I need to go get myself a bottle...

[Wulfespirit]

Originally Posted by Geezle

So what you're telling me is that I need to go get myself a bottle...

It's Christmas.. we're all in misery.

[plinker]

A few years back, someone introduced Japanese coy fish into the Granum stocked pond. This is a stocked trout pond. The coy took over and it was an incredible site to see large schools of these massive fish. The trout population was decimated. I'm not sure if it was the province or the town of Granum, but they poisoned the pond, waited the appropriate time, and restocked it with trout. IMHO I think that when you introduce a species which has the ability to overpopulate a pond or lake, then you create a population shift which will take a few years, but destroy a good body of water for fishing.

[Paul C]

Originally Posted by Geezle

So what you're telling me is that I need to go get myself a bottle...

Get two bottles, nice to have back up

[Geezle]

Originally Posted by Wulfespirit

It's Christmas.. we're all in misery.

Originally Posted by Paul C

Get two bottles, nice to have back up

'tis the season

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Paul C

side ways, upside down, left to right, backwards, right and wrong. Having baileys in the coffee makes it more entertaining.

I take serious objection to you having baileys without sharing

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Paul C

I ran into a farmer a couple of years ago and he said he had some goldfish and coy in his small pond that he uses to water the cattle.
He told me that sometimes the eggs will get attached to duck and geese feathers. I was surprised to see fish about three inches long swimming in his pond. I fished this past year up at Dolberg and I saw very small goldfish swimming near the dock.
Cheers

This old wives tale has been around and will keep coming around.

The premise is a duck...will swim down to 3 meters, catch the perch spawning while the eggs are still sticky. Then carefully cradle some eggs under the wing. Swim to the surface. Very carefully lift off the water and fly to the next lake before the eggs die of lack of water. Then carefully set down and ensure enough are carried to start a viable population.

I studied lakes in the Athabasca River drainage for just this reason. Apparently the study showed that lakes with a tributary connecting to a fish bearing river or lake also had those species. A lake with an intermittent stream had fish if connected to fish water only if the lake over wintered. If it randomly did then it was hit or miss. No tributary...no fish. Minnows can move through very little water including floods. Therefore they disperse better.

Just saying...this is extremely unlikely. If remotely likely then EVERY single lake in Alberta would have perch in it regardless of location. Nature has had millions of years to distribute perch. Seems like just recently man decided to do it instead.

Sun

[Sundancefisher]

Hi all.

My good buddy says I am seemingly slamming people on this thread.

Sorry...not my intent. I am passionate about hating illegally stocking of fish in our waters.

But...I will tone it down.

Sorry if I came across to strongly.

Cheers

Sun

[Paul C]

My question is for Sundancefisher: how did this nothern lake get gold fish there ?

[Wulfespirit]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Hi all.

My good buddy says I am seemingly slamming people on this thread.

Sorry...not my intent. I am passionate about hating illegally stocking of fish in our waters.

But...I will tone it down.

Sorry if I came across to strongly.

Cheers

Sun

Yeah man - I was deeply offended. Tone it down eh .. friggen armchair biologist.

[Geezle]

Originally Posted by Wulfespirit

Yeah man - I was deeply offended. Tone it down eh .. friggen armchair biologist.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Paul C

My question is for Sundancefisher: how did this nothern lake get gold fish there ?

Well I can't say without asking a ton of questions. Where, when, how, why, who etc. It would seem most likely that someone put them in there. Lake Sundance has had goldfish in it in the past. I remember hearing of others also. People release them. Chances are someone bought a bunch of feeders and dumped them. Pretty common unfortunately whether the lake is private or public. There was a concern that Channel Catfish would get released into the North Saskatchewan River as a few pet stores were selling them for a while. Anything can happen with people involved.

That being said if there are pike or walleye around...they won't last long. Especially the bright yet dumb orange ones

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Wulfespirit

Yeah man - I was deeply offended. Tone it down eh .. friggen armchair biologist.

Sorry