Mule Deer Allocations

[sir_charlie]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

If we cut the allocations for draw tags Alberta outfitters would still have Whitetails, Sheep, Wolves, Black Bear, Elk, Cougar, Game Birds - if I'm missing any feel free to chime in...

Is that so bad?

Not if you are in one of the zones where all those species tags aren’t general.

Asking an outfitter that question misses the point entirely that this is in some cases their livelihood. Maybe it’s not their primary job but I guarantee you it’s income they depend on. And none of us here would feel respected if some stranger came up to us, took a away our side hustle we’ve built up over years of hard work, and asked “isn’t the other job you work enough?”

Outfitters are just doing what government allows them too. The rhetoric and questions plain and simple should be directed at government to get their ducks in a row, do the 5 yr survey and readjust the quotas. That way outfitters can readjust their business plans and do what any of us would, which is go on making an honest living.

Push to change the regs etc. But don’t expect outfitters to support it. And why should they? No one who works in oil supports any plans or climate initiatives that cut back or kill oil. It’s no different.


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[OL_JR]

Originally Posted by sir_charlie

Not if you are in one of the zones where all those species tags aren’t general.

Asking an outfitter that question misses the point entirely that this is in some cases their livelihood. Maybe it’s not their primary job but I guarantee you it’s income they depend on. And none of us here would feel respected if some stranger came up to us, took a away our side hustle we’ve built up over years of hard work, and asked “isn’t the other job you work enough?”

Outfitters are just doing what government allows them too. The rhetoric and questions plain and simple should be directed at government to get their ducks in a row, do the 5 yr survey and readjust the quotas. That way outfitters can readjust their business plans and do what any of us would, which is go on making an honest living.

Push to change the regs etc. But don’t expect outfitters to support it. And why should they? No one who works in oil supports any plans or climate initiatives that cut back or kill oil. It’s no different.


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I wouldn't expect outfitters to support it, lol why would they? I've had this talk around the camp fire with friends that outfit and trust me it's not a pleasant conversation. Frankly I suspect to be a few friends and maybe even some family light over this as time goes on but I believe that changes need to be made. I'll hold my head up high no matter what.

Life is a tough one and trying to make everyone happy and compromise all the time is a sure fire way to ensure nothing actually happens.

[robocop]

Originally Posted by Salavee

For the most part ,I agree but I would really like to know what is meant by the "need and support" thing.
Seems to me the Alberta economy wouldn't even blink if the whole darn works of that industry were elminated. Right now our Big Game hunting opportunities are on a steep decline and will continue to be until they barely exist. Those who are in the Entertainment business of fulfilling hunting opportunities for non-residents in a Province that is experiencing rapid declines in nearly every area, are accelerating this scenario.
Most Outfitters are not totally reliant on their BG Allocations to make a living anyway. I'll bet over 80% of them have other careers that contribute most of thier annual income. To them, Outfitting is simply a glorified hobby, and with many of thier allocations owned by Non resident alien clients

Having said that, eliminating those who currently earn less than 80 % of thier annual income from Outfitting related sources make sense under the existing circumsatances. Plus, it makes it easier for all Residents,including Landowners, (who pay the bills to maintain the resource). Any Allocations, currently owned by Non resident aliens (which are many) should also be eliminated.

Thats the way I've seen it since the 80's and it sure as heck isn't getting any better.

This is exactly it. I have a neighbor who is a "hobby" outfitter/farmer. He does his best to try and run everyone off the land in the area for his own interests. He tries running people off land aggressively that isn't his either. His family members do the same thing and guess what they happen to have landowner tags as well. As far as I'm concerned this type of outfitter is the worst/ most selfish kind. They seem to have this air of entitlement to them that hunting is for them and no one else. I know neighboring farmers who have landowner tags every year as well and wont let others hunt. Its a flawed system all around. Saskatchewan has it right with exception to the lottery type draw system.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

If we cut the allocations for draw tags Alberta outfitters would still have Whitetails, Sheep, Wolves, Black Bear, Elk, Cougar, Game Birds - if I'm missing any feel free to chime in...

Is that so bad?

It would only be bad for those making a living from outfitting those animals I guess, to them it would be very bad.

Moose and Mule Deer are the biggest selling hunts in Alberta besides Sheep. Bears are everywhere and are getting tougher to sell, our whitetails aren’t even close to what they once were and everywhere else is cheaper to hunt and run. There’s 28 cougar allocations total and the US already has 50 times the cat hunting opportunity we do.

Moose and Mule Deer are still in demand because they’re limited everywhere, so yes, that would be very bad to lose those animals

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by robocop

This is exactly it. I have a neighbor who is a "hobby" outfitter/farmer. He does his best to try and run everyone off the land in the area for his own interests. He tries running people off land aggressively that isn't his either. His family members do the same thing and guess what they happen to have landowner tags as well. As far as I'm concerned this type of outfitter is the worst/ most selfish kind. They seem to have this air of entitlement to them that hunting is for them and no one else. I know neighboring farmers who have landowner tags every year as well and wont let others hunt. Its a flawed system all around. Saskatchewan has it right with exception to the lottery type draw system.

What did F&W and APOS say when you reported him ?

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

What did F&W and APOS say when you reported him ?

I doubt they would do anything, except maybe chat with the outfitter, its your word against theirs unless you have recorded the encounter and can prove the location.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

I doubt they would do anything, except maybe chat with the outfitter, its your word against theirs unless you have recorded the encounter and can prove the location.

Hard to believe in this day and age Outfitters are running around chasing people off land they don’t own and nobody thought to take out a phone and record it.

But I can tell 30 stories about my cousin Ted’s neighbour who’s sister owns land near an outfitter and that guy is a real problem. I don’t know his name but I’ve heard some things. They didn’t tell anybody because it won’t do any good !!!

[robocop]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

What did F&W and APOS say when you reported him ?

He has been reported in the past. Kind of get discouraged when
Nothing gets done. There are three outfitters in my direct area. One out of three outfits doesn't have a bad wrap. Puts a bad taste in my mouth. I know there are good ones out there as well but once bitten twice shy.

[Wolftrapper]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Hard to believe in this day and age Outfitters are running around chasing people off land they don’t own and nobody thought to take out a phone and record it.

But I can tell 30 stories about my cousin Ted’s neighbour who’s sister owns land near an outfitter and that guy is a real problem. I don’t know his name but I’ve heard some things. They didn’t tell anybody because it won’t do any good !!!

Lol. So true.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by huntwat

There should be no non-resident tags for any species that residents have to wait more than 3 years to get drawn for.
Landowner tags should only be non-trophy.

To those that are concerned about this, please email the environment minister. They are reviewing the regulations as we speak. The emails, the better the chances

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by huntwat

There should be no non-resident tags for any species that residents have to wait more than 3 years to get drawn for.
Landowner tags should only be non-trophy.

Originally Posted by huntwat

To those that are concerned about this,y please email the environment minister. They are reviewing the regulations as we speak. The emails, the better the chances

Biting the hand that feeds you is not going to end well for anyone.... You are so hung up on the landowner permits you fail to realize any benefit.

Issuing the antlered permits to landowners allows for better management of the species, removing more of the breeding populations actually will INCREASE wait times... So because your have a hate on for these permits you advocate for longer wait times as your jealous or just missing the big picture.

Please tell me what benefit does any Alberta land owner have to increase habitat, allow access to strangers all while paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for these parcels of land ?

Imagine a our province where these landowners don't allow access... A stinky mule deer here and there really isn't a problem, but not having these lands to chase say Antelope, Elk, Moose, Pheasants, Geese, Ducks, ext is not what I want the future generations to be left with.

I can send you some MLS listings where your more than welcome to come aboard and buy some land and see how challenging these people have it.

[7magtime]

Here's a couple contacts to email if you want your voice to have a better chance to be heard on the upcoming outfitter allocations review(that expired in 2017).

More opportunities for residents in the future won't be possible unless the government is held accountable for enforcing the 10% maximum on outfitter allocations. As can be seen from the info in this thread, this definitely isn't happening in a lot of WMU's currently.

Don't be afraid to voice your opinion/frustration in your emails on the outfitter allocations review being 5 years overdue either....


Jason Nixon
Minister Of Environment And Parks
Rimbey.RockyMountainhouse.Sundre@assembly.ab.ca


Kim Morton
Manager, Provincial Wildlife Policy
Kim.Morton@gov.ab.ca

[7magtime]

Resurrecting this thread.
With all the posts about reduced resident tag #'s and opportunities, I thought I'd share some information that I received recently when I followed up with a government contact about an outfitter allocations update.
See below.


-Has the 5 year outfitter allocations review that expired in 2017 been finalized and renewed?
If so can you let me know where the new agreement is located to take a look at?

The process to review and adjust allocations is still in progress, with a process to still be identified.



-Has the extra “Covid relief” allocations given to outfitters for the 2021 to 2023 hunting seasons been removed for the upcoming 2024 season now that Covid issues for travel have been resolved?

All deferral allocations provided to outfitters as a COVID relief concession are set to expire by 2027, as per the agreement made with outfitters when they were provided.



-Have the Species Management Areas(SMA’s) for calculating the 10% maximum outfitter allocations requirement been changed to WMU’s as was brought up by many resident hunters previously?

No. Any discussion related to SMAs vs WMUs will be part of the discussions in the process ongoing related to your first question.



So the extra tags given during Covid to outfitters wasn't on a per season basis but was an agreement made until 2027?

The outfitters have now been operating off a 5 year agreement that expired in 2017 while many resident tags and opportunities have been reduced yearly?

I find it very interesting that the stakeholders involved to get the new 5 year Outfitter Allocation agreement approved have not been able to finalize it in nearly 7 years?

https://open.alberta.ca/publications...hunting-season

I've included a link above for the 2024 moose allocations as an example.
The "Outfitter w/ Mitigation" columns will be the "Covid" tags outfitters will get this season(and until 2027) on top of their regular tags for a pandemic that has been pretty non-existent for the last while.
Check your species and WMU you hunt as some of these "mitigation" tag #'s issued are substantial to the total tags given this year.

See post #19 on some of my previous questions and info on this subject as well.

Feel free to share your thoughts or add any info you may have on this subject, thanks.

[fishnguy]

Thanks for the info, 7mag.

Originally Posted by 7magtime

Feel free to share your thoughts

I am fairly certain most share the same thoughts on the subject as I do or worse.

[DRhunter]

Information on hunting allocations for 2024 season is posted here as well and seems to be a little easier to navigate https://mywildalberta.ca/hunting/hun...locations.aspx

It does appear that resident mule deer allocations were pulled back fairly substantially in the southern half of the province (this may be consistent with the northern half as far as reduction to resident hunter allocations, however I do not hunt there so do not watch allocations closely).

I do agree with cutting back the tag numbers with the intent of improving the trophy quality as the high tag numbers do not seem to have been successful in eliminating/reducing spread of CWD, however there has been no corresponding reduction in outfitting tags. Now several zones in southern half of the province have between 25-50% of total available antlered mule deer tags for outfitters.

DR

[Esox]

Originally Posted by DRhunter

Information on hunting allocations for 2024 season is posted here as well and seems to be a little easier to navigate https://mywildalberta.ca/hunting/hun...locations.aspx

It does appear that resident mule deer allocations were pulled back fairly substantially in the southern half of the province (this may be consistent with the northern half as far as reduction to resident hunter allocations, however I do not hunt there so do not watch allocations closely).

I do agree with cutting back the tag numbers with the intent of improving the trophy quality as the high tag numbers do not seem to have been successful in eliminating/reducing spread of CWD, however there has been no corresponding reduction in outfitting tags. Now several zones in southern half of the province have between 25-50% of total available antlered mule deer tags for outfitters.

DR

I dont like to see that. I may not draw my tag this year now because there will be point creep lolol

[trapperdodge]

2023 WT doe allocations in WMU 151 - 130 double tags
2024 WT doe allocations in WMU 151 - 39 tags

Does this look like science? Does anybody @ F&W know what's going on?

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by trapperdodge

2023 WT doe allocations in WMU 151 - 130 double tags
2024 WT doe allocations in WMU 151 - 39 tags

Does this look like science? Does anybody @ F&W know what's going on?

I was in that area on a guided pronghorn hunt last fall and from talking with the guides whitetail numbers are way down. These were guys who have lived, hunted, farmed in the area their whole life so likely have a decent grasp on numbers. Same story on mule deer

F&W was trying to knock down deer numbers do to CDW and succeeded. Hunters and guides have been complaining about the decline in many areas so the cut back in tags is likely the result

I was planning on pulling my mule deer tag this year but may fall short but I would rather see the cut back of harvest and wait a little longer

[trapperdodge]

The landowners would have first hand knowledge of the deer numbers.

My question is directed to the professionals at F&W. Did they have reliable population numbers? When you go in one year from 130 double tags down to 39 it begs the question.

CWD succeeded not F&W management.

[whitetail Junkie]

Im happy too see the numbers finally cut back...its going to take years in alot of wmu's for trophy bucks and deer population to return to decent levels.

In regards to the 5 year review of outfitter allocations nothing will change if they dont actually have a sit down and "review" it and my guess is interested partys know a change will come once things are actually "reviewed" so thats why this review aint happening...probably will wait until game numbers drastically increase then all the sudden its "review" time...lol

[wind drift]

Also posted this in the thread about 406. The annual survey reports are here. Looks like very few surveys were done in the 100s in the past three years and none in the 200s so it doesn’t appear recent survey data is the reason. The last year of any real survey effort in the south was 2021.

https://www.alberta.ca/aerial-wildli...ts#jumplinks-1

[slough shark]

It’s good if they are cutting back tag numbers, I hunt 202 and the mulie numbers were abysmal (10-20% of historical numbers) and I didn’t see any bucks over 3 1/2 years old. The combination of cwd and management has almost collapsed the mulie population, it was terrible to see, I didn’t shoot any and encouraged others to do the same.