Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Hunting Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 01-10-2021, 12:13 PM
brewster29 brewster29 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: East Kootenays, BC
Posts: 1,159
Default

Any bull in the 600's is huge if you're talking the same language: skinned, legs and head off. Those would be old and well fed.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-10-2021, 12:57 PM
silver lab's Avatar
silver lab silver lab is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Stuck between wmu 110, 302 & 305
Posts: 1,023
Default

I’ve seen two bulls that were 350+ and they didn’t hit 600-650lbs on the rail. You shoot some incredibly big bodied elk..... I would doubt this elk didn’t weigh that much on the hoof, most don’t.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-10-2021, 07:02 PM
smith88's Avatar
smith88 smith88 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 880
Default

Thanks for all the replies. I have spoke to some friends and found 4 or 5 other people that believe they have been shorted by this butcher.

The butcher said they have another elk to do and they want me to bring my meat back and compare it to this other elk.

I am going to take a meat cutting course and do all of my own meat. Does anyone have a good local butcher supply store in Medicine Hat or north Calgary/Airdrie?
__________________
"I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands" - Charlton Heston, 1923-2008
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-10-2021, 07:18 PM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NW Calgary
Posts: 2,785
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith88 View Post
Thanks for all the replies. I have spoke to some friends and found 4 or 5 other people that believe they have been shorted by this butcher.

The butcher said they have another elk to do and they want me to bring my meat back and compare it to this other elk.

I am going to take a meat cutting course and do all of my own meat. Does anyone have a good local butcher supply store in Medicine Hat or north Calgary/Airdrie?
CTR refrigeration (high caliber) are great out of Calgary. You don’t need anything fancy though. Sharp knife and your good to go.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-10-2021, 08:50 PM
summit151's Avatar
summit151 summit151 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 581
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver lab View Post
I’ve seen two bulls that were 350+ and they didn’t hit 600-650lbs on the rail. You shoot some incredibly big bodied elk..... I would doubt this elk didn’t weigh that much on the hoof, most don’t.

Agreed !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-10-2021, 09:51 PM
calgarychef calgarychef is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,667
Default

Maybe the butcher didn’t “short” anyone. It could be that he just throws away a lot, which isn’t acceptable either but it’s not like theft.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-11-2021, 12:44 AM
smith88's Avatar
smith88 smith88 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 880
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calgarychef View Post
Maybe the butcher didn’t “short” anyone. It could be that he just throws away a lot, which isn’t acceptable either but it’s not like theft.
Its possible I suppose. But then they should say that. And I totally understand if an animal comes in gut shot, and full of hair, but I took really good care of the carcass and the guts didn't even get nicked in the gutting process. There was no brusing on it either as he was bedded.
__________________
"I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands" - Charlton Heston, 1923-2008
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-11-2021, 11:33 AM
Dean2's Avatar
Dean2 Dean2 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
Posts: 14,972
Default

You either need to find the right butcher or do it yourself because the guy your are using is either wasting too much meat or isn't returning all your packages. There is one butcher in GP that we quit using because we were not getting back our own meat, and we know that for sure. It was H&M meats. Shawn's meats and Wapiti both do excellent work in the GP area. Shawn's you have to tell them if you want roasts or chops from the front quarters or they will put them in the grind pile but both places will cut and package to exactly what you asked for, both are completely boneless. No waiting to get the animal in, get it back in as little as 2 days if you are tight timelines. There are lots of good butchers, you just have to find them. If it wasn't for these quality options we would cut the meat ourselves.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-11-2021, 12:35 PM
walking buffalo's Avatar
walking buffalo walking buffalo is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calgarychef View Post
Maybe the butcher didn’t “short” anyone. It could be that he just throws away a lot, which isn’t acceptable either but it’s not like theft.
I agree, that's possible.

45% of rail weight is probably average.

Sounds like you got a bit less than that, which could be a couple of good cuts went to the "house" pile or a bunch of poor ones went to scraps.

Nothing wrong with learning from someone with experience, but teaching yourself to butcher by just doing it is really very easy.

-----

390 pounds of deboned meat off an elk...
Those are incredibly Huge elk.


I'm not sure of the accuracy of my memory, but I recall there being some debate if the Wainwright herd are the Manitoban subspecies, the largest bodied elk.
__________________
Alberta Fish and Wildlife Outdoor Recreation Policy -

"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-11-2021, 03:21 PM
Aim Low Aim Low is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 149
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
I usually look for a 1/3 of the rail weight, but I don't use any fat that I can cut off and am very picky about what I grind.
A good friend and butcher/sausage maker once told me that 'if you will not fry it up and eat it don't put it in your sausage or burger"
Cat
Me too. Exact same thing, I look for around a 1/3 to 40 percent after I am done cutting. This year I got 40 percent, last year had a terrible shoulder shot and got closer to 30. I am ULTRA picky when it comes to trimming as well, if its got white, its going out...It's a bit wasteful, but everyone who eats my sausage (...get your mind out of the gutter) comments how good and not gamey it is.
__________________
Cause I always hit high...
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 01-11-2021, 04:59 PM
K44 K44 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sherwood Park
Posts: 490
Default

If you think he is ripping you off ask for all your scrapes. All meat cutters are thieves or so everyone that brings in their own meat thinks. I cut meat for 25 yrs and was accused of stealing meat on a regular bases. most wild is brought in shot up and full of hair, dirt leave and pine needles
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-11-2021, 07:03 PM
smith88's Avatar
smith88 smith88 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 880
Default

I did some looking on the internet. The University of Wyoming did a study and they found that an elk give 50% of the field dressed weight back in boneless meat. Field dressed weight is gutted and legs removed but with head and skin on. They found head and skin weighs 73lbs. So 73lbs + 168lbs (boneless meat from a 2.5 year old elk) = 241lbs so that leaves 94lbs for the skeleton because they found a 2.5 year old bull is 337lbs average.

So my elk weighed 323lbs on the with no head or skin. So according to this study there should have been 239lbs of boneless meat. I received half of that.



http://www.wyomingextension.org/agpubs/pubs/B594R.pdf
__________________
"I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands" - Charlton Heston, 1923-2008
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 01-11-2021, 07:12 PM
sns2's Avatar
sns2 sns2 is online now
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,446
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith88 View Post
I did some looking on the internet. The University of Wyoming did a study and they found that an elk give 50% of the field dressed weight back in boneless meat. Field dressed weight is gutted and legs removed but with head and skin on. They found head and skin weighs 73lbs. So 73lbs + 168lbs (boneless meat from a 2.5 year old elk) = 241lbs so that leaves 94lbs for the skeleton because they found a 2.5 year old bull is 337lbs average.

So my elk weighed 323lbs on the with no head or skin. So according to this study there should have been 239lbs of boneless meat. I received half of that.



http://www.wyomingextension.org/agpubs/pubs/B594R.pdf
Out him so other people don't get hosed.

praise the good guys from the roof, but if someone screws you...
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 01-11-2021, 07:14 PM
Faststeel Faststeel is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Alberta
Posts: 2,580
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith88 View Post
The elk I shot was 323lbs on the rail, no head, hide or legs below the knee. I received 58lbs of cuts and 59lbs of trim back. Carcass was in great shape, very little hair, no spoilage or guts. I'm not happy....
I can always remember my old neighbor swearing up and downe butchers always stole meat from him.......lol
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 01-11-2021, 07:51 PM
smith88's Avatar
smith88 smith88 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 880
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by K44 View Post
If you think he is ripping you off ask for all your scrapes. All meat cutters are thieves or so everyone that brings in their own meat thinks. I cut meat for 25 yrs and was accused of stealing meat on a regular bases. most wild is brought in shot up and full of hair, dirt leave and pine needles
I got all of my scraps back, 60lbs of trim, but only 60lbs of cuts.
__________________
"I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands" - Charlton Heston, 1923-2008
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 01-11-2021, 08:00 PM
brewster29 brewster29 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: East Kootenays, BC
Posts: 1,159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith88 View Post
I did some looking on the internet. The University of Wyoming did a study and they found that an elk give 50% of the field dressed weight back in boneless meat. Field dressed weight is gutted and legs removed but with head and skin on. They found head and skin weighs 73lbs. So 73lbs + 168lbs (boneless meat from a 2.5 year old elk) = 241lbs so that leaves 94lbs for the skeleton because they found a 2.5 year old bull is 337lbs average.

So my elk weighed 323lbs on the with no head or skin. So according to this study there should have been 239lbs of boneless meat. I received half of that.



http://www.wyomingextension.org/agpubs/pubs/B594R.pdf
As stated before, I have cut up more than 30 bull elk and have not come even close to this percentage of boneless meat vs hanging weight after trimming fat and other non edible stuff. I have received 240 lbs from bulls that were about 500 lbs hanging. (In my part of the world those are large mature elk, scoring over 320")
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 01-11-2021, 08:13 PM
abhunter8's Avatar
abhunter8 abhunter8 is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Drayton Valley, AB
Posts: 699
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
I usually look for a 1/3 of the rail weight, but I don't use any fat that I can cut off and am very picky about what I grind.
A good friend and butcher/sausage maker once told me that 'if you will not fry it up and eat it don't put it in your sausage or burger"
Cat
I agree with this, 1/3 of rail weight is correct if you are a little picky about your meat. I have the same motto.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 01-11-2021, 09:12 PM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,586
Default

Whether beef or wild, boned out is around 30% of live weight.
__________________
Thank you front line workers and volunteers
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 01-12-2021, 07:19 AM
walking buffalo's Avatar
walking buffalo walking buffalo is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith88 View Post
I did some looking on the internet. The University of Wyoming did a study and they found that an elk give 50% of the field dressed weight back in boneless meat. Field dressed weight is gutted and legs removed but with head and skin on. They found head and skin weighs 73lbs. So 73lbs + 168lbs (boneless meat from a 2.5 year old elk) = 241lbs so that leaves 94lbs for the skeleton because they found a 2.5 year old bull is 337lbs average.

So my elk weighed 323lbs on the with no head or skin. So according to this study there should have been 239lbs of boneless meat. I received half of that.



http://www.wyomingextension.org/agpubs/pubs/B594R.pdf
The study does not show that you should have received 239 pounds of meat.

Your document claims 50% of skinned carcass weight in the University setting, 43% from butcher documents.

The discrepancy is probably due to extra care taken by the university and the reality of averages and the realities of butchers.

At 323 rail weight, you probably should have received somewhere between 130-160 pounds of meat.

So you seem to be just low of low side of the average return, but not by much.

where did it go?
Neck shots can easily lose more meat than a clean rib shot.
Some animals, especially younger ones, are just boney.
Lots of boney teenagers out there.
The butcher may have been a bit aggressive in trimming.

I think you are dealing maybe 10-20 pounds of unaccounted meat.

I would not lose any more energy over it and learn to butcher.
In a few years, you will be happy this experience gave you the kick to do it yourself.
__________________
Alberta Fish and Wildlife Outdoor Recreation Policy -

"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 01-12-2021, 05:55 PM
K44 K44 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sherwood Park
Posts: 490
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Rat View Post
Whether beef or wild, boned out is around 30% of live weight.
Bull****
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 01-12-2021, 08:13 PM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by K44 View Post
Bull****
So sorry.
33% on wild game and 40% on beef.
__________________
Thank you front line workers and volunteers
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 01-13-2021, 11:06 AM
Maxwell87 Maxwell87 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 85
Default

this is a decent chart that seems to go along with what most have said

here is the link

https://www.backcountrychronicles.co...ck-out-weight/
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 5D6A3113-DCCC-4BBD-97BD-5A5EE9EF0B92.jpg (33.7 KB, 54 views)
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 01-13-2021, 02:36 PM
DRhunter DRhunter is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 670
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by K44 View Post
Bull****
Double post. Delete

Last edited by DRhunter; 01-13-2021 at 02:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 01-13-2021, 02:39 PM
DRhunter DRhunter is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 670
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by K44 View Post
Bull****
Sorry, in what way is this information BS?

I cant speak from experience in Elk (do not weigh live or rail weight in my elk) but I can speak for for beef and Battle Rat was darn near bang on his first estimate.

For grass fed yearling hfrs, my experience has been that hanging weight averages 50-52% of live weight and cut and wrapped meat is roughly 59-65% of hanging weight (which is extremely variable depending on cuts selected). This means that cut and wrapped meat typically ranges between 27-32% of live weight.

To the OP, keep in mind there are different ratios for steers, feedlot fattened and selected cuts for Beef and will be no different for cow/bull elk, age, cuts etc. Just keep in mind that there are certain ranges that are probably acceptable or expected.

DR
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 01-13-2021, 02:49 PM
Speckle55's Avatar
Speckle55 Speckle55 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CANADA
Posts: 6,268
Default

Guys here is the Key

it was bedded down when i shot it (Mule Buck)

some times the Hydrostatic shock in the meat around bullet channel

is unreal .. what a mess ... i cut my own meat

lost most of both shoulders n some neck meat

blood every where in meat

wow i will not shoot another bedded ungulate

just saying

David
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Picture 171.jpg (16.9 KB, 73 views)
__________________
Scientific and Analytical Angler/Hunter
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 01-17-2021, 07:50 PM
silver lab's Avatar
silver lab silver lab is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Stuck between wmu 110, 302 & 305
Posts: 1,023
Default

We just finished butchering two cow elk today, 270lbs total. These were not small cows and were picked very clean.
135lbs each. Take from this what you like, i wouldn’t expect much (if any) more from a small bull.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 01-17-2021, 10:35 PM
skidderman skidderman is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Spruce Grove, AB
Posts: 3,039
Default

Have cut more elk, moose & deer than I can count. I don't weigh them but I am always a little surprised at what I get & I don't waste. One has to remember that what is left is pure meat that goes a long way.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 01-18-2021, 09:04 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,230
Default wild meat cutting.

Few years back we had a wild meat cutting operation near Sherwood park that trimmed meat for their own sausage sales. I had a cow elk that gave me more packaged meat than my bull moose one year. I guess because I had good hunting year where I brought in buck muley, buck whitetail, cow elk and bull moose I had lots extra meat to contribute to his own private sales.
He was shut down a few years later.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 01-23-2021, 10:59 PM
vcmm's Avatar
vcmm vcmm is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Vulcan Ab
Posts: 3,871
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
I usually look for a 1/3 of the rail weight, but I don't use any fat that I can cut off and am very picky about what I grind.
A good friend and butcher/sausage maker once told me that 'if you will not fry it up and eat it don't put it in your sausage or burger"
Cat
Exactly.. Thanks.
__________________
"It's like bragging that it's 10 CENTIMETERS LONG! (when really, it's 4" dude, settle down)"
Huntinstuff


"Me neither but it's all in the eye of the beer holder"
norwestalta

.....out of bounds.....but funny none the less!

LC

"Funny how when a bear eats another bear, no one bats an eye, but......

when a human eats another human, people act like it's the end if the friggin world. News coverage, tweets, blogs, outrage, Piers Morgan etcetc.

Go figure." -Huntinstuff
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 01-23-2021, 11:04 PM
vcmm's Avatar
vcmm vcmm is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Vulcan Ab
Posts: 3,871
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRhunter View Post
Sorry, in what way is this information BS?

I cant speak from experience in Elk (do not weigh live or rail weight in my elk) but I can speak for for beef and Battle Rat was darn near bang on his first estimate.

For grass fed yearling hfrs, my experience has been that hanging weight averages 50-52% of live weight and cut and wrapped meat is roughly 59-65% of hanging weight (which is extremely variable depending on cuts selected). This means that cut and wrapped meat typically ranges between 27-32% of live weight.

To the OP, keep in mind there are different ratios for steers, feedlot fattened and selected cuts for Beef and will be no different for cow/bull elk, age, cuts etc. Just keep in mind that there are certain ranges that are probably acceptable or expected.

DR
Yup. Every animal is different just like every cutting list. There are industry standards for beef etc. But as was said - a feedlot fatty vs old cow??
__________________
"It's like bragging that it's 10 CENTIMETERS LONG! (when really, it's 4" dude, settle down)"
Huntinstuff


"Me neither but it's all in the eye of the beer holder"
norwestalta

.....out of bounds.....but funny none the less!

LC

"Funny how when a bear eats another bear, no one bats an eye, but......

when a human eats another human, people act like it's the end if the friggin world. News coverage, tweets, blogs, outrage, Piers Morgan etcetc.

Go figure." -Huntinstuff
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.