Best Sizer Dies for Reloading

[260 Rem]

When asked which die set I think is best, my response is always the same, suggesting that I would not buy a “set”, but rather get only what I need to do the job right. My recommendation for sizing is a single ... Full length -Redding - Type ‘S’ die with a (right sized) titanium bushing. Perhaps someone can chime in and share prices for a CDN retailer. Brownells lists this 308 Win die at $70.00 and $28.00 for a single bushing.
Pictured below is the one I use. Note that I have removed the (floating) expander ball from the decap stem. I do that for a reason. First, I know that when it goes bang, close to 60,000 psi forces the neck against the chamber wall and it is perfectly straight and there (should be) no run-out. During the resize process, the bushing is designed to float a bit which means the neck will not be pushed to the side and it therefore retains the concentricity formed in the chamber. The bushing diameter (they come in increments of 0.001) squeezes only enough to reduce the neck diameter to stay at 0.002 less than what it will become once the bullet is seated. Thus, there is no need for the expander ball which could potentially (unlikely because it too floats) pull the neck to one side. Also, the absence of the expander ball means the brass is only “worked” in one direction ... resulting in less “work hardening” which means extending the life of the brass.

[260 Rem]

This pic shows a Hornady sizer die. Note the “fixed” expander button on the decap rod. One of the issues that can occur with this type of rig is that if the decap rod gets a bit “bent”, or maybe the threads do not put it in perfect alignment...is that the button can pull the neck to one side as it exits, resulting in less than optimum concentricity. Also, if the neck is not uniformly lubed, the button may bind a bit on one side which can (at least theoretically) result in a loss of concentricity.
Because the neck bore diameter is fixed (no bushing), there is no way to control the squeeze so you get what you get. With thick walled brass the expander button results in a pretty big spread between the min and max neck diameters, promoting an increase in work hardening.

[Hawkeye]

Since that bushing is compressing the neck from the outside, presumably thickness of the neck would affect the extent of the squeeze and ultimately the inside diameter (and therefore extent to which the neck holds the bullet).
In contrast, with a conventional die and expander ball, as I understand it, the neck is compressed beyond what is necessary and the expander ball expands it back to the appropriate size, which should be relatively independent of the thickness of the neck wall.

Do you every have to turn necks to if they get too thick, to avoid excessive reduction of the internal diameter that you get from your neck bushing?

To be clear, I am absolutely NOT arguing with you or challenging what you have said. Rather, I am simply curious about this and look forward to an explanation.
Thanks!

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Note that I have removed the (floating) expander ball from the decap stem. I do that for a reason. First, I know that when it goes bang, close to 60,000 psi forces the neck against the chamber wall and it is perfectly straight and there (should be) no run-out. During the resize process, the bushing is designed to float a bit which means the neck will not be pushed to the side and it therefore retains the concentricity formed in the chamber. The bushing diameter (they come in increments of 0.001) squeezes only enough to reduce the neck diameter to stay at 0.002 less than what it will become once the bullet is seated. Thus, there is no need for the expander ball which could potentially (unlikely because it too floats) pull the neck to one side. Also, the absence of the expander ball means the brass is only “worked” in one direction ... resulting in less “work hardening” which means extending the life of the brass.

Works perfect as long as your necks are turned, If they are not and one side of the neck is say .012 thick and the opposite side is lets say .014 thick it may be concentric on the outside after fireforming and run through a bushing die but the bullet may end up off center by .002 when seated simply because the differing neck thickness will have the bullet seated off from the center case axis. Also causes variations in neck tension. Because bushings make the outside of all necks the same diameter if one case is .012 on one side of the neck and .014 on the other side and the next case is say .012 one side and .013 on the other side that case will have .001 less neck tension than the first one because of the difference created on the inside diameter from differing neck thickness when sized from the outside of the neck with a bushing. For turned necks bushings are the way to go. If one is going to size with bushing dies one should go the extra mile and neck turn to get the full benefit of bushing dies. They were pretty much invented to be used on turned necks, kinda defeats the purpose of bushing dies if the necks are not equal thickness around the circumference of the neck. This will give concentric necks allowing bullets to be seated perfectly centered to the bore (as long as your chamber is perfectly centered to the bore), also creates equal neck tension on every round.

[260 Rem]

Not sure if I am following the question ... but with bushings if you want to increase the inside neck diameter (reduce NK tension), you just use a larger diameter bushing. That would generally not be a problem with chambers that have generous radial clearances like most SAAMI specs ... but, with tight necked chambers, it may be necessary to turn the necks.
EDIT: With few exceptions I use Lapua brass and find the neck wall thicknesses to be very uniform. If I am seeing fliers with new brass, I pull them.

[260 Rem]

BR - The bushing style dies come with a floating expander ball which can be used...I just don’t use it because I get better consistency with it removed ... including with unturned necks. Regardless of whether I turn necks or not, I set aside brass that is producing a flier.

[Don_Parsons]

I'm not working with the best ammo loading tools out there, if a person chooses to push the limits, there are options out there to help us.

Here is an example of 1 unit that could improve over all accuracy.

https://www.hornady.com/reloading/pr...ls-and-gauges/

A way to confirm if things are working out that is

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

I personally prefer expander mandrels over bushing dies or expander buttons.

As mentioned previously, a bushing die will push all inconsistencies to the inside of the neck (unless you neck turn then it doesn't really matter).

If you do not neck turn though I would much prefer to have the inconsistencies on the outside of the neck then the inside.

[elkhunter11]

I use the neck bushing dies myself for most cartridges, but I do use the expander button. However, I polish it down so that it just lightly drags in the sized neck, so it doesn't expand the neck, but it does remove any dents in the neck. With target loads dents are not an issue, but hunting loads do get dented now and then. I also use Lapua cases whenever possible, and I don't neck turn.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I use the neck bushing dies myself for most cartridges, but I do use the expander button. However, I polish it down so that it just lightly drags in the sized neck, so it doesn't expand the neck, but it does remove any dents in the neck. With target loads dents are not an issue, but hunting loads do get dented now and then. I also use Lapua cases whenever possible, and I don't neck turn.

I think there is a point to be made in favor of choosing good quality brass (like Lapua). Most reloaders do not turn necks and I am not convinced it is necessary except for 1) BR level consistency, and 2) tight necked chambers.
With one box of Lapua brass, I decided to “clean up” the necks with a very light turner pass and found that about 90% was good-to-go out of the box. Based on that, I turn only when I need to for tight necked chambers.
As mentioned earlier, I set aside brass that is producing fliers, mark it, and use it for “fouling” or off-hand practice. I have come to be a believer that a bad piece of brass is just a bad piece of brass and if the “cause” is an inconsistency in the neck wall thickness, perhaps that inconsistency extends to the rest of the case... so no point in spending time on trying to correct it.

[Don_Parsons]

I'm giving these dies a try this spring, they come with 1 thousands of adjustments in the ring and expander ball.

This new seating die has an aliment design to lesson the chances of bullet run-out when seating.

A few up grades is always a good thing.

https://youtu.be/3zv65rwfrH8

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Ryan.M.Anderson

I personally prefer expander mandrels over bushing dies or expander buttons.

As mentioned previously, a bushing die will push all inconsistencies to the inside of the neck (unless you neck turn then it doesn't really matter).

If you do not neck turn though I would much prefer to have the inconsistencies on the outside of the neck then the inside.

Ryan, care to comment ....I tried collet dies and in the end, decided against them. Maybe I messed up but I found 1) it took a lot of downstroke pressure (kind of scary with my press that was attached to the wall); 2) had to get undersized mandrels to get proper neck tension; 3) they neck sized only so I needed to FL size periodically; 4) I thought I might need to anneal to maintain consistent necdk tension (probably not an issue?).

[32-40win]

Just to point it out, RCBS and Forster and Whidden make bushing dies as well. Redding has the best marketing strategy on their dies, whether they are "better" or not is up for grabs to an extent. Nowadays you can have combination bushing/bump dies from them all as well. I see Whidden came out with "microadjustable " lockrings for sizing dies, may be worth looking into also. You can buy die sets with them or the rings on their own, to add to your existing dies. May be useful for crimping adjustments on seaters, too.

[260 Rem]

Good info 32-40, does anyone know if there are CDN retailers that stock any of these “brands”?

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Ryan, care to comment ....I tried collet dies and in the end, decided against them. Maybe I messed up but I found 1) it took a lot of downstroke pressure (kind of scary with my press that was attached to the wall); 2) had to get undersized mandrels to get proper neck tension; 3) they neck sized only so I needed to FL size periodically; 4) I thought I might need to anneal to maintain consistent necdk tension (probably not an issue?).

Collet dies and expander mandrels are work quite differently. I too tried the collet die thing and found them OK but now I FL for reliability in matches/practice.

My process is FL size with the expander button removed, this makes the neck too small (just like normal) and then in the next station (I do brass prep on progressive press) the expander mandrel opens the neck back up to 2 thou neck tension. I compete in PRS so the ammo is not babied and I have found that level of neck tension to be fine. In theory you could use a the bushing dies to work your neck less (under size the neck to 4 thou tension rather than whatever the FL does) but I have not found any issues with the FL die.

Annealing your brass, IMO, is key to consistency. Brass work hardens quite fast and getting the right amount of spring back is important for consistent neck tension.

I currently only shoot 6mmBr and my SDs are under 5fps for 16rds. The 6mmBr is very consistent to begin with though.

[rugerfan]

Hornady makes a bushing die as well now. You can order direct from whidden.

[260 Rem]

Thanks Ryan ... I initially thought you were referencing a collett type die, I have never seen the mandrel system and not familiar with its use. Looks like I will be doing some reading.

[pikergolf]

A case for the Lee collet die.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_eX6-X2Kxg

[32-40win]

When you think of a mandrel system , think along the the line of Lyman's two step M dies, same idea, but single dia, supports the whole neck, I liked using those, used them on the 450-400 for cast bullets in it... I've seen the single dia versions somewhere, possibly K&M or Wilson, maybe 21st Century, I would expect Brownell's would have them. As far as that goes , you can get custom ones from Buffalo Arms, just use the first stage of the M dies., seems to me they'll screw into a seating die body as well, if you have an extra laying around. And you may be able to adapt mandrels from outside turning tools.
Not many stores would stock the bushing/bump dies up here, seems to me Whidden is direct only, there is someone back east in NS or NB that sells Forster, but, any of the die mfgrs will ship here, no Itar restriction on that stuff. I've bought Forster out of Gunstop in Mich. also.

[Don_Parsons]

I've had good success with Lee collect dies, they've allowed me to push the limits of long range shooting like nothing before.

My first 800 to 1700 meter groups seem to be working, Ha.

Now if I'd spend more time measuring out balanced powder charges.