View Poll Results: Allow .223” diam. bullets as new min. for hunting?
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Yes
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140 |
38.25% |
No
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207 |
56.56% |
Undecided
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19 |
5.19% |
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08-09-2018, 12:47 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton Area
Posts: 4,161
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I think 99% of the guys on here would be ethical in their use of a .223 in both distance and bullet selection.
Regulation are normally developed taking the worst case scenario or the lowest common denominator.
Look at the 45-70. SAAMI has the pressures really low to accommodate the trap door rifles. Even though 90% (or higher) of the 45-70 in use today could take much higher pressures. They need to set these low pressure so some idiot doesn't load a factory round in an old 45-70 and have a failure.
What happens when a guys uses a 40 grain Hornady Varmint Express, as opposed to a TSX? Unfortunately we are stuck abiding by the same rules designed to keep people from being idiots.
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08-09-2018, 12:48 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
Finally ! He's on to it !! Why not just call it a heavy for caliber bullet and be done with it? They come with their own higher SD's and more momentum.
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First off thanks mods for cleaning up and not locking this! There’s important info here so right on.
Salavee, heavy for caliber is a great rule of thumb also, I’m with that, but you can take it further...I’m with that even more!
Just as the 1000 ft/lb rules have worked well...they did so out of ignorance FYI. The info I talk about has been around a long time...but not easy to kill old institutions regardless.
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08-09-2018, 12:51 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoseto
Hahahahaha!!!
This just keeps getting better.
I can’t help but wonder how the conversation would be different around a table.
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Yes, much wine would be consumed, many laughs, a few diagrams and maybe even a few punches thrown lol. But for the love of all this gun and hunting stuff we’d still be brothers like it or not.
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08-09-2018, 12:55 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rem338win
The fact that people are still jabbering nonsense in the face of testimony just so they can feel uber about their damned opinion on this thread is an epic example of why the future is Fubar.
The .223 is as least as effective as a 30-30 and to a further reasonable range. Having used .22 cals and the 30-30 on deer sized game and seen more taken I say it with the authority of experience.
All of the responsible industry professionals of the modern age I could find (in a very quick Google search mind you) that have used one said the same damn thing.
I'm waiting for someone on this to argue flat earth with astronauts next......you guys are hilarious.
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Fav post of thread! That first paragraph...yes✌️
My next fav post might have been Kurt asking if salavee knew where he was lol. Salavee you gotta admit that was funny😉, and chuck has some dandies too. Art imo😂
Just looked for a couple of chucks posts, maybe abrasive but didn’t see why deleted? He made good point, I’ll leave it alone.
Last edited by Stinky Coyote; 08-09-2018 at 01:06 AM.
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08-09-2018, 05:54 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 25,261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
For some reason this comes to mind.
You sure showed him........ bahahaha!
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You should not choke your chicken in public......
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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08-09-2018, 07:31 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote
Fav post of thread! That first paragraph...yes✌️
My next fav post might have been Kurt asking if salavee knew where he was lol. Salavee you gotta admit that was funny😉, and chuck has some dandies too. Art imo😂
Just looked for a couple of chucks posts, maybe abrasive but didn’t see why deleted? He made good point, I’ll leave it alone.
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I requested it.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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08-09-2018, 08:54 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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✌️
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08-09-2018, 09:58 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote
Yes, much wine would be consumed, many laughs, a few diagrams and maybe even a few punches thrown lol. But for the love of all this gun and hunting stuff we’d still be brothers like it or not.
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Did you say wine?
Who drinks wine?
Honestly this thread should have been shut down a long time ago
It’s the same as the other 10 page 223 for hunting thread.
Same guys trying to show off or act like they are know more than everyone else
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08-09-2018, 10:05 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Lmfao
🤦
Hornady, while Alberta struggles to get up to speed, can you bring out the 22 Creedmoor please.(it’ll be the magnum equivalent to the Valkyrie)😉
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08-09-2018, 10:22 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
Honestly this thread should have been shut down a long time ago
It’s the same as the other 10 page 223 for hunting thread.
Same guys trying to show off or act like they are know more than everyone else
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And yet you continue to comment?
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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08-09-2018, 02:10 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sherwood Park Ab
Posts: 6,324
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Bump to the top....
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An awful lot of big game was killed with the .30-06 including the big bears before everyone became affluent enough to own a rifle for every species of game they might hunt.
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08-09-2018, 02:29 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat
You should not choke your chicken in public......
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Well......
Did you see the size of it???
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08-09-2018, 07:18 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
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My long time friend offers this saying for those of us that have the wrong gun, cartrage, and caliber.
"Welcome to my World."
LOL
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08-09-2018, 09:23 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 2,170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marky_mark
Did you say wine?
Who drinks wine?
Honestly this thread should have been shut down a long time ago
It’s the same as the other 10 page 223 for hunting thread.
Same guys trying to show off or act like they are know more than everyone else
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Just to clarify, who are the guys trying to show off or act like they know more than everyone else? The guys that have killed or witnessed others killing deer with the 223?
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08-09-2018, 10:09 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE, Saskatchewan
Posts: 671
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Late to this thread.
Not sure if its been mentioned but Sask just change the rules here.
Can use 223, 22-250 220 swift and larger varmint case lengths. 1.25" minimum case length.
The ones still a no go 17 calibre, the 22 hornet , 218 Bee amongst others.
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08-09-2018, 10:11 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 220 Swift
Late to this thread.
Not sure if its been mentioned but Sask just change the rules here.
Can use 223, 22-250 220 swift and larger varmint case lengths. 1.25" minimum case length.
The ones still a no go 17 calibre, the 22 hornet , 218 Bee amongst others.
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Look at that Chuck! If you move there you will have it all!
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08-09-2018, 10:17 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE, Saskatchewan
Posts: 671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyksta
Look at that Chuck! If you move there you will have it all!
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This was on the website.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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08-09-2018, 10:28 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoseto
Just to clarify, who are the guys trying to show off or act like they know more than everyone else? The guys that have killed or witnessed others killing deer with the 223?
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Once upon a time, long long ago, I may or may not have been part of a domestic whitetail deer cull. May have been 40+. Veterinarian supervised of course. Barbituates weren't going to cut it. .22 mag may have done the trick.
Would that be experience?
Yeah there is a difference between a .22 mag and a .223, I get that. Not enough IMO. Would work well in some scenarios, but not all.
Gotta draw a line somehere. I'm good with .240 minimum
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
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2. You're stupid
Last edited by MountainTi; 08-09-2018 at 10:35 PM.
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08-09-2018, 10:53 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainTi
Once upon a time, long long ago, I may or may not have been part of a domestic whitetail deer cull. May have been 40+. Veterinarian supervised of course. Barbituates weren't going to cut it. .22 mag may have done the trick.
Would that be experience?
Yeah there is a difference between a .22 mag and a .223, I get that. Not enough IMO. Would work well in some scenarios, but not all.
Gotta draw a line somehere. I'm good with .240 minimum
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Would the difference between a .22 mag and a .223 be like comparing a .223 to a .240?
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08-10-2018, 02:11 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Even though I trust the numbers completely, I have to say seeing a vid like the .22-250 53 gr vs the 375 h&h 300 gr in milk jugs is still eye opening. By a lot of accounts here you’d think the .22-250 would struggle with 1 jug let alone explode five. It’s a fairly dramatic way to show exactly what I’ve sumply been trying to further info on.
Marky mark, not trying to do anything other than educate, sorry you take it a different way. This ballistics talk isn’t to turn anyone or push an agenda, it’s to see it a little differently and dare I say accurately.
I’m quite surprised at the high speed mono performance actually, I know the numbers show the expected in that the 375 will go further but the explosiveness on those jugs from both tell quite a story. Even without first hand accounts on game to verify.
I’d still take a grendel or should I say slower with much higher s.d. As most versatile over any of the .22cfs even though muzzle energy nearly identical to .22-250. The numbers show as any other high speed light weight does...one trick ponies. Great pbr, lightning effect, and perfectly suited to that knowledge or limitation. I ask more from my powder though. I’d rather be a little less impressive in pbr to hold potential to much further for dialing up longer if needed. But both schools are effective in their limits. I’d say the lightweight speed camp will see more spectacular performance in its narrower node, but the other will astonish at distances most wouldn’t imagine possible.
This is what the numbers tell me. Energy/diam./momentum are useless figures. I’m not wrong, they can guide you correctly but inefficiently and inaccurately. That’s all I’m trying to show. S.d. And impact velocity is where it’s at. Bullet construction a given.
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08-10-2018, 02:14 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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The more I look at this the more I support the change like sask did. Seriously.
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08-10-2018, 05:34 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainTi
Once upon a time, long long ago, I may or may not have been part of a domestic whitetail deer cull. May have been 40+. Veterinarian supervised of course. Barbituates weren't going to cut it. .22 mag may have done the trick.
Would that be experience?
Yeah there is a difference between a .22 mag and a .223, I get that. Not enough IMO. Would work well in some scenarios, but not all.
Gotta draw a line somehere. I'm good with .240 minimum
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There is a lot of difference. And that difference is easily discernible to those who have used both.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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08-10-2018, 05:40 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Would the difference between a .22 mag and a .223 be like comparing a .223 to a .240?
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Actually no. The 223 has five times the case capacity of the 22 mag. It’s like comparing the 223 to the 338 Lapua.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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08-10-2018, 07:24 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
Actually no. The 223 has five times the case capacity of the 22 mag. It’s like comparing the 223 to the 338 Lapua.
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The .22 mag is a proven deer killer. 40 for 40 (that is real world experience Chuck)......should it be legal? If not....why not? Anybody?
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
1.You weren't paying attention in grade 5
2. You're stupid
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08-10-2018, 07:26 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
There is a lot of difference. And that difference is easily discernible to those who have used both.
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Don't actually have a lot of experience with a .223. Done a bit of plinking with an AR, that's about it.
22/250 mind you.....different story
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
1.You weren't paying attention in grade 5
2. You're stupid
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08-10-2018, 07:43 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
Actually no. The 223 has five times the case capacity of the 22 mag. It’s like comparing the 223 to the 338 Lapua.
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So you're saying comparing the .22mag with 324ft/lbs of energy to the .223 with 1333ft/lbs of energy (just a little over 4x the energy difference) isn't really a good comparison?
If you look at just over all ft/lbs of energy the 223 has about 1000ft/lbs more
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_...Magnum_Rimfire
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington
And the Swede has about 1000 ft/lbs more than the 223
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5×55mm_Swedish
So it would be like saying "I have a ton of expirience shooting critters with a 223, it's pretty much the same as the swede".
Probably not the most accurate statement.
Last edited by Kurt505; 08-10-2018 at 07:49 AM.
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08-10-2018, 08:59 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
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Old Timer and I are off to the range to sight in the 22 rimfires for Elk, and garbage 308's for Chickens and Rabbits. Dam,,, that auto correct got things mixed up again,,, oh well.
The Northern hunt is closing in fast, lots of pre season scouting, visit will friends and family up there, and enjoy the good times.
It's the best we can do.
Funny thing is the theme song for Bonanza was playing out in my pumpkin last night. LOL
https://youtu.be/bczfyoafHBk
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08-10-2018, 09:03 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
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Energy has nothing to do with this😉
But if we want to blur centerfire with rimfire then throw some archery gear in there too.
Rimfire isn’t throwing enough s.d. With enough impact velocity to play in these discussions. I know of plenty of big game killed off horse with .22lr and solids in the ear, well heard the stories long ago. But in no instance have I recommended an inadequate s.d. Or impact velocity for big game hunting here including our typical ranges we hunt. When does the 22mag drop below 1600 fps? Lol sure you can execute just about anything with one but hunting? Nah
Last edited by Stinky Coyote; 08-10-2018 at 09:17 AM.
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08-10-2018, 09:20 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote
Rimfire isn’t throwing enough s.d. With enough impact velocity to play in these discussions. I know of plenty of big game killed off horse with .22lr and solids in the ear, well heard the stories long ago. But in no instance have I recommended an inadequate s.d. Or impact velocity for big game hunting here including our typical ranges we hunt. When does the 22mag drop below 1600 fps? Lol sure you can execute just about anything with one but hunting? Nah
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Experience says it does the job. Who said anything about behind the ear or head shots?
You drawing a line SC? What factors into this imaginary line you have drawn (not interested in hearing your theories on S.D) ...IN YOUR OPINION?
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
1.You weren't paying attention in grade 5
2. You're stupid
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08-10-2018, 09:21 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainTi
The .22 mag is a proven deer killer. 40 for 40 (that is real world experience Chuck)......should it be legal? If not....why not? Anybody?
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Anybody?
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
1.You weren't paying attention in grade 5
2. You're stupid
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