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03-11-2017, 12:02 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
I no longer own a 30 caliber cartridge for big game hunting, because it just isn't necessary to use a bullet with that large of a bore. The 30 caliber cartridges are still effective, but they just aren't required for any big game that can be hunted in Alberta.
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Since we have some time on our hands lets alter my original
post and replace the .35 Whelen with a 30-06. Apparently someone thought I stacked the choice with the .35
The 30-06 will be running a 200 gr NP. The 6.5 will use a bullet of choice. Same scenario.
Wanna play ?
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-11-2017, 12:05 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: N. E. of High River
Posts: 4,985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Do you think we would have hit 6 pages if I didn't?
LOL!!!
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Don't know but in your words I agree when you say
I know there is no way the 30cal will ever become obsolete,
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03-11-2017, 12:09 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
Since we have some time on our hands lets alter my original
post and replace the .35 Whelen with a 30-06. Apparently someone thought I stacked the choice with the .35
The 30-06 will be running a 200 gr NP. The 6.5 will use a bullet of choice. Same scenario.
Wanna play ?
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I have never owned a 30-06, and I will never hunt with one, but I wouldn't for a minute feel undergunned at 170 yards, for any legal game in Alberta, with my 6.5x55. As for 200gr bullets, I never used heavier than 180gr in either my 300wby, or my 300RUM, because it simply isn't required. I would have used the 168gr TSX in my 300RUM rifles if they shot as well as the 180gr TSX did.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Last edited by elkhunter11; 03-11-2017 at 12:16 PM.
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03-11-2017, 12:13 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Obsolete might have been a bit of a strong word. "Unnecessary" may be more appropriate...
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Ya, but we just hit 7 pages!
Salavee still don't wanna answer my question.
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03-11-2017, 12:17 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
Since we have some time on our hands lets alter my original
post and replace the .35 Whelen with a 30-06. Apparently someone thought I stacked the choice with the .35
The 30-06 will be running a 200 gr NP. The 6.5 will use a bullet of choice. Same scenario.
Wanna play ?
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What are you playing? You comparing impact energy, penetration, impact velocity, wind drift, or what?
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03-11-2017, 12:27 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
What are you playing? You comparing impact energy, penetration, impact velocity, wind drift, or what?
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We are playing ..drop that animal in it's tracks.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-11-2017, 12:32 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Obsolete might have been a bit of a strong word. "Unnecessary" may be more appropriate...
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Maybe we should all just let consumers decide and see how things go
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03-11-2017, 12:35 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
We are playing ..drop that animal in it's tracks.
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LOL, me and my .243AI will play.
My boy thought she went down pretty hard
There's only one way to guarantee a DRT- hit it in the CNS.
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03-11-2017, 12:37 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
We are playing ..drop that animal in it's tracks.
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Unless the animal flies or swims off, it will always drop in it's tracks. As for killing the animal without it taking a single step, you either you either need to break both front shoulders or legs, or you need to do damage to the central nervous system. I am perfectly content if the animal takes a few steps after I shoot it.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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03-11-2017, 12:37 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,278
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Not an option .. see the rulz
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-11-2017, 12:41 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Unless the animal flies or swims off, it will always drop in it's tracks. As for killing the animal without it taking a single step, you either you either need to break both front shoulders or legs, or you need to do damage to the central nervous system. I am perfectly content if the animal takes a few steps after I shoot it.
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Maybe it will step in to a lake or river with 7 ft of water. What Quad or boat would you use ?
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-11-2017, 12:43 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
Not an option .. see the rulz
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Taking out the off shoulder is no guarantee that an animal won't run off on three legs. And even if it it runs a half mile and then drops, it will die in it's tracks, because unless it is swimming or flying. it will keep making tracks until it stops moving.
And I don't own a boat or a quad, so I would use whatever I can find that is available to recover it, if it ends up in water. I have actually been in on a moose kill, where one of our party waded out and tied a rope onto a moose in a pond. That is one reason that I prefer to hunt moose late season, or away from the swamps.
Quote:
There's only one way to guarantee a DRT- hit it in the CNS.
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Pretty much, even an animal with two broken front shoulders can push itself with the hind legs. I have seen a deer go farther than I would have ever thought possible doing just that.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Last edited by elkhunter11; 03-11-2017 at 12:50 PM.
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03-11-2017, 12:56 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Pretty much, even an animal with two broken front shoulders can push itself with the hind legs. I have seen a deer go farther than I would have ever thought possible doing just that.
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So have I. There are no shortcuts, and no shoulder-fired rifles that can guarantee a DRT if the CNS is undamaged.
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03-11-2017, 12:57 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
Taking out the off shoulder is no guarantee that an animal won't run off on three legs. And even if it it runs a half mile and then drops, it will die in it's tracks, because unless it is swimming or flying. it will keep making tracks until it stops moving.
And I don't own a boat or a quad, so I would use whatever I can find that is available to recover it, if it ends up in water. I have actually been in on a moose kill, where one of our party waded out and tied a rope onto a moose in a pond. That is one reason that I prefer to hunt moose late season, or away from the swamps.
Pretty much, even an animal with two broken front shoulders can push itself with the hind legs. I have seen a deer go farther than I would have ever thought possible doing just that.
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Sooner or later you will grasp that proverbial straw Elk.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-11-2017, 12:58 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
Not an option .. see the rulz
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Is there a reason you won't answer my question? Could it be that the 30cal is clearly a bad choice?
you want everyone to play your bang flop game though.
Not only did I watch that guy do a bang flop with a 6.5 on a moose, I watched him do a bang flop on a deer with my Cooper 280rem at close to 800yds.
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03-11-2017, 01:03 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
So have I. There are no shortcuts, and no shoulder-fired rifles that can guarantee a DRT if the CNS is undamaged.
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Is your DRT referring to dead right there or down right there ? The goal is to put it down right there. What remains to be done from that point is irrelavent .
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When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-11-2017, 01:06 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,363
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Down right there.
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03-11-2017, 01:07 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: N. E. of High River
Posts: 4,985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Obsolete might have been a bit of a strong word. "Unnecessary" may be more appropriate...
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Good point BUT
if one were to use the word unnecessary that word could apply to any caliber or cartridge designation ever created. There is always something that can do just as well or better.
I'll check in tonight and see if this is still going
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03-11-2017, 01:07 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Is there a reason you won't answer my question? Could it be that the 30cal is clearly a bad choice?
you want everyone to play your bang flop game though.
Not only did I watch that guy do a bang flop with a 6.5 on a moose, I watched him do a bang flop on a deer with my Cooper 280rem at close to 800yds.
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I've watched some rodeos when guys were using some mighty large rifles, so I stand by my statement that 100% DRT = CNS.
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03-11-2017, 01:10 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
I've watched some rodeos when guys were using some mighty large rifles, so I stand by my statement that 100% DRT = CNS.
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I agree. The vital zone is much smaller, but in reality, it is the only reliable way to kill an animal without it taking a single step.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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03-11-2017, 01:12 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Is there a reason you won't answer my question? Could it be that the 30cal is clearly a bad choice?
you want everyone to play your bang flop game though.
Not only did I watch that guy do a bang flop with a 6.5 on a moose, I watched him do a bang flop on a deer with my Cooper 280rem at close to 800yds.
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I'm sure most of us have witnessed great low percentage shots taken on all sorts of game under all sorts of conditions. As spectacular as they are, they are not routine and don't occur very often.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-11-2017, 01:29 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
I've watched some rodeos when guys were using some mighty large rifles, so I stand by my statement that 100% DRT = CNS.
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No argument that screwing up the nervous system put's them down but it's not the only way to anchor them. Examples galore.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-11-2017, 01:39 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
No argument that screwing up the nervous system put's them down but it's not the only way to anchor them. Examples galore.
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I have seen many animals that dropped at the shot without the cns being damaged, including lung shots with no shoulder being hit, and I have also seen several animals run with a lung shot that also took out a shoulder. But if you are talking about being able to drop an animal every time at the shot, the cns shots are the only shots that will do it pretty much every time.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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03-11-2017, 01:44 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee
I'm sure most of us have witnessed great low percentage shots taken on all sorts of game under all sorts of conditions. As spectacular as they are, they are not routine and don't occur very often.
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For a fair comparison I compared a 280rem with a 160gr partition to a 30-06 with a 165gr partition, both being same size case and within 5gr of projectile weight. The 30-06 starts out at 2800fps, at 500yds it is going 1799fps. 280rem starts out at 2775fps, at 500yds it's going 1901fps. At muzzle the 30-06 has 2872ft/lbs energy, at 500yds it has 1186ft/lbs of energy. 280rem at muzzle has 2735ft/lbs energy, at 500yds it has 1284ft/lbs of energy, with just over 2" less drop and less recoil.
I did an apples to apples with a 308 based case between a 30cal and a 6.5 cal, 6.5cal wins, this is an apples to apples comparison with a 06 based case between a 30cal and a 7mm.
Unless you purposely stack the odds, the 6.5 and 7's flat out out perform the 30cal bullets with less recoil.
Will the 30cal get the job done? Most certainly. But there are more efficient options.
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03-11-2017, 02:31 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 22
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300. Win, and . 308 norma mag
I doubt the death Nell of .30 will ever happen. I still prefer its proven track record and ballistic predictability,.
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03-11-2017, 02:42 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
For a fair comparison I compared a 280rem with a 160gr partition to a 30-06 with a 165gr partition, both being same size case and within 5gr of projectile weight. The 30-06 starts out at 2800fps, at 500yds it is going 1799fps. 280rem starts out at 2775fps, at 500yds it's going 1901fps. At muzzle the 30-06 has 2872ft/lbs energy, at 500yds it has 1186ft/lbs of energy. 280rem at muzzle has 2735ft/lbs energy, at 500yds it has 1284ft/lbs of energy, with just over 2" less drop and less recoil.
I did an apples to apples with a 308 based case between a 30cal and a 6.5 cal, 6.5cal wins, this is an apples to apples comparison with a 06 based case between a 30cal and a 7mm.
Unless you purposely stack the odds, the 6.5 and 7's flat out out perform the 30cal bullets with less recoil.
Will the 30cal get the job done? Most certainly. But there are more efficient options.
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There are more efficient ctdgs ,depending on your definition of efficiency.
If recoil enters the equation, all bets are off. Recoil is a shooter thing and has nothing to do with cartridge performance.
Your are doing a trajectory comparison, not a "best performance" comparison. If you want the max out of a 7mm bullet, use a heaviest 180 VLD bullet available and put a 7mm STW or a7RUM behind it. Do the same with a .30 cal 210 VLD bullet using a .308 Norma or .300 WBY. All loaded to MAP. This is the absolute Max for the three cartridges using the heaviest payloads they can pack. Now, do the same with the 6.5 using the 140 VLD (heaviest available).. Use a nominal hunting range of 300 yds and let 'em rip on your software. Increase the ranges from there.
I don't know the outcome but I do know SD will play a major role in the energy dept.
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03-11-2017, 03:03 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,243
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Well hopefully my new 6.5 is ready come fall and I can see first hand what it will do on a moose. Otherwise it'll have to fall to the .284cal
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03-11-2017, 03:34 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 4,278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
Well hopefully my new 6.5 is ready come fall and I can see first hand what it will do on a moose. Otherwise it'll have to fall to the .284cal
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The 6.5's are awesome. I have a 65x55 based on an old M96 action and another one based on a newer HVA that I can run with higher pressures. It is now at Ron Smiths getting a new barrel. Keeping them within their performance perimeters the 65.55 certainly exceeds normal expectations for a small dia. bullet and I don't think taking a Moose would present even the smallest issue. The .280 is a great alternative at greater distances, for sure and another great caliber. My go- to was a 7STW for many years and it never let me down.
I never did hunt with a .30 cal. I have a .308 Norma that hasn't had much other than target use since I got on the mid-bore kick a few years ago.
All ctdgs have their place and it appears they keep us all interested in discovering what they are all about. Have fun .
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
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03-11-2017, 07:28 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Oz
Posts: 2,190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505
For a fair comparison I compared a 280rem with a 160gr partition to a 30-06 with a 165gr partition, both being same size case and within 5gr of projectile weight. The 30-06 starts out at 2800fps, at 500yds it is going 1799fps. 280rem starts out at 2775fps, at 500yds it's going 1901fps. At muzzle the 30-06 has 2872ft/lbs energy, at 500yds it has 1186ft/lbs of energy. 280rem at muzzle has 2735ft/lbs energy, at 500yds it has 1284ft/lbs of energy, with just over 2" less drop and less recoil.
I did an apples to apples with a 308 based case between a 30cal and a 6.5 cal, 6.5cal wins, this is an apples to apples comparison with a 06 based case between a 30cal and a 7mm.
Unless you purposely stack the odds, the 6.5 and 7's flat out out perform the 30cal bullets with less recoil.
Will the 30cal get the job done? Most certainly. But there are more efficient options.
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A 30-06 can start a 165 at 3k fps. Mine do it easily with book loads of 4064 or RE22 so why not do your comparison without a reduced load? Oh right, because the old war horse looks worse the way you have it.
You seem to be forgetting or purposely underestimating the effect of frontal diameter on terminal performance.
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03-11-2017, 07:43 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiloil37
A 30-06 can start a 165 at 3k fps. Mine do it easily with book loads of 4064 or RE22 so why not do your comparison without a reduced load? Oh right, because the old war horse looks worse the way you have it.
You seem to be forgetting or purposely underestimating the effect of frontal diameter on terminal performance.
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Purposely underestimating or willfully blind to certain facts has been the very reason this thread is soon to be 8 pages long. An indiviual person will have their own idea of the perfect cartridge to match their own style. Some find it hard to understand, others embrace trolling the forums. I think age might be a factor.
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